Sodom and Gomorrah

[Sarah Louise]

I am asking both of you to end this now.  We don't need another locked topic.

[lilacwoman]

LOL OK.

[ToriJo]

As for the sin of Sodom being a sin against angels (and, thus, offering up daughters is not as bad as the sin they committed, since the daughters were not angels), I don't disagree because I don't read or believe the Bible.  Rather, I disagree because other parts of the Bible place man (and woman) above angels in God's eyes.  1 Cor 6:3  "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

Certainly trying to abuse an angel would be bad.  But so would not protecting your daughter.  The sin of sodom was their attitudes, behavior, and treatment of others.  Not a specific sexual sin.  Lot may have shown some promise, even after the ugly offer of his daughter, simply because he did at least provide the angels a place to stay - which nobody else did.  But it's not because he only had sex with women (and girls).

[Annah]

As for the sin of Sodom being a sin against angels (and, thus, offering up daughters is not as bad as the sin they committed, since the daughters were not angels), I don't disagree because I don't read or believe the Bible.  Rather, I disagree because other parts of the Bible place man (and woman) above angels in God's eyes.  1 Cor 6:3  "Do you not know that we will judge angels?"

Certainly trying to abuse an angel would be bad.  But so would not protecting your daughter.  The sin of sodom was their attitudes, behavior, and treatment of others.  Not a specific sexual sin.  Lot may have shown some promise, even after the ugly offer of his daughter, simply because he did at least provide the angels a place to stay - which nobody else did.  But it's not because he only had sex with women (and girls).

According to many sects of scripture, we were made a little higher than the angels. Meaning, we have free will in a sense that we can sin and fall short of God but God redeemed us (Christian theology). Angels do not have a free will....in a sense. They do not have the breathing room of sin and redemption. This is how we are higher than them.

However, there are things in which we are lower. In Genesis 6:1-4, sons of God translated from Hebrew were creatures of a divine nature vs godly men. The results of the divine procreating with the mortal yielded, in a sense, aberrations. Immediately after this story, it is the story of the flood where every human being thought evil.

Do I take these stories literally? No. I do find truths in story telling tho. For example, I do not believe Abraham Lincoln walked 3 miles in a snow storm, barefooted, to return an overdue library book. However, I do believe in the Spirit of the story that tried to convey the integrity of the soon to be leader of a nation torn in two from ideologies and convictions.

Do I see homosexuals as people who were abominable to God? No. I really see no evidence. The only thing that comes closest is in Leviticus where man shall not sleep with man....but right after that God uses the same word "abomination" for eating crabs, shrimp, and shellfish. So I do not take much stock in those scriptures in terms of pissing off God.

[peky]

According to many sects of scripture, we were made a little higher than the angels. Meaning, we have free will in a sense that we can sin and fall short of God but God redeemed us (Christian theology). Angels do not have a free will....in a sense. They do not have the breathing room of sin and redemption. This is how we are higher than them.

However, there are things in which we are lower. In Genesis 6:1-4, sons of God translated from Hebrew were creatures of a divine nature vs godly men. The results of the divine procreating with the mortal yielded, in a sense, aberrations. Immediately after this story, it is the story of the flood where every human being thought evil.

Do I take these stories literally? No. I do find truths in story telling tho. For example, I do not believe Abraham Lincoln walked 3 miles in a snow storm, barefooted, to return an overdue library book. However, I do believe in the Spirit of the story that tried to convey the integrity of the soon to be leader of a nation torn in two from ideologies and convictions.

Do I see homosexuals as people who were abominable to God? No. I really see no evidence. The only thing that comes closest is in Leviticus where man shall not sleep with man....but right after that God uses the same word "abomination" for eating crabs, shrimp, and shellfish. So I do not take much stock in those scriptures in terms of pissing off God.

I beg to differ with your view of the Angels lack of free will. Satan and his associates had =like us- free will- to choose to obey or disobey God, again like us he choose to disobey God, and thus -like us- he was punished.

[Annah]

if an angel exercising free will causes them to burn in hell for all eternity, is their will truly free? If an angel use their will to not obey God and face the consequences...is it truly free will? Because an angel's purpose is to serve God. To not serve God will result in grave consequences.

This same course of argument has been debated with human free will for centuries. Like the Tootsie Roll Owl, the world may never know

Of course, I have no idea for sure, but it's interesting to think about.

[Cindy]

The Book of Enoch describes some of this.  The book describes the appearance of the 'fallen' angels who were jealous of humans. I have no idea where the book stands in religious literature. It seems odd that an angel can be jealous.

[lilacwoman]

Oh well if the topic is going to run and run and not be locked   

angels are male so of course they were jealous of Adams sons having delightful sex with his daughters and wanted to try it themselves...which they did quite well and unfortunately produced the vicious giants who made such a mess of things that a Flood was the only way of cleansing the earth again.

Its because of the Flood that we have the polar icecaps and can't grow grain on the mountain tops and get skin cancers.

[Annah]

Oh well if the topic is going to run and run and not be locked   

angels are male so of course they were jealous of Adams sons having delightful sex with his daughters and wanted to try it themselves...which they did quite well and unfortunately produced the vicious giants who made such a mess of things that a Flood was the only way of cleansing the earth again.

Its because of the Flood that we have the polar icecaps and can't grow grain on the mountain tops and get skin cancers.

Angels are without gender.....theologically speaking in the Judeo-Christian sense.

And yeah, we kinda covered that part a page ago.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,116442.msg899411.html#msg899411

[Annah]

The Book of Enoch describes some of this.  The book describes the appearance of the 'fallen' angels who were jealous of humans. I have no idea where the book stands in religious literature. It seems odd that an angel can be jealous.

Theologically speaking (not like I actually talked to a fallen angel lol), a fallen angel would be jealous of humans because of two things:

1. Humanity was created in the image and likeness of God
2. Humanity is given chances of redemption

Angels were only created to serve and if they had fallen...there is no covenant in which they can seek out restoration with God.

This is strictly within the sphere of Judeo Christian belief tho. Angels, according to other religions, have a much wider diverse purpose.

[Sarah Louise]

This is a valid topic, being discussed reasonably.  I see no reason to consider locking it as long as it stays on topic.

[peky]

Oh well if the topic is going to run and run and not be locked   

angels are male so of course they were jealous of Adams sons having delightful sex with his daughters and wanted to try it themselves...which they did quite well and unfortunately produced the vicious giants who made such a mess of things that a Flood was the only way of cleansing the earth again.

Its because of the Flood that we have the polar icecaps and can't grow grain on the mountain tops and get skin cancers.

If we go by the Jewish religious books, such as the talmud, and the book of enoch,then Angels do not have gender

[GypsySoul]

 (Pertaining to the gender of Angels...)
It is strongly implied in Matthew (kjv) that angels are without gender. Unless I am interpreting this poorly.

Matt 22:29-30
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry (male) , nor are given in marriage (female) , but ARE AS the angels of God in heaven. 

[Del]

The biggest injustice to anyone that is sincerely seeking the will of God in their life are those who either do not see or blatantly ignore the difference between the spirit of man, the carnal mind and the Holy Ghost.

The spirit of man lusts to envy.
The carnal mind which is enmity with God seeks scripture to justify the lusts the spirit of man desires.

The Holy Ghost brings forth the rightly divided word of truth that reproves, rebukes and exhorts.
It will reprove the truth, rebuke the wrong and exhort those trying to serve the Lord with all their heart.

If the Lord wanted a bunch of people to teach after being taught in school or by some denomination he would have chosen 12 scribes or pharisees.
They knew Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic better than any Gentile preacher, teacher or professor today.

If a person truly wants the right answers it would be best to trust the Lord with all their heart and seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
The Spirit of God will guide them into the way of the Lord and reveal who teaches and preaches the rightly divided word of truth.

[justmeinoz]

You'd have to admit it was the first example of "overkill" though.  Surely a plague of baldness or incontinence would have  been more appropriate as a first warning.   But then, I am an Athiest at the moment.

Karen.

[Felix]

You'd have to admit it was the first example of "overkill" though.  Surely a plague of baldness or incontinence would have  been more appropriate as a first warning.   But then, I am an Athiest at the moment.

Karen.

A plague of incontinence would certainly change my behavior.

[peky]

Thelogical speaking -as a Christian- the soul comes from God, thus is divine. So, when that soul is placed in a human, God knows -by virtue of being omniscient- if that souls is coming back to him or goes to hell. If that soul would be condemn then why to send it to begin with ? And more important where is the so called free will ?

This is the kind of stuff that make me go "Hum mm" when I am driving out of Cleveland

[Annah]

Thelogical speaking -as a Christian- the soul comes from God, thus is divine. So, when that soul is placed in a human, God knows -by virtue of being omniscient- if that souls is coming back to him or goes to hell. If that soul would be condemn then why to send it to begin with ? And more important where is the so called free will ?

This is the kind of stuff that make me go "Hum mm" when I am driving out of Cleveland

the thins that make me go hmmm....is when I really dwell into the theory of predestination and double predestination

[Felix]

I'm reading a book on sexual behavior and culture among the american colonists (puritans, mostly), and this thread title is seeming more loaded and suggestive every time I look at it.

[Kelly-087]

You know my dad read this story when I was younger.

At the point in which Lot submits his daughters I was like, "So he was going to let the men rape his daughters?"
"yeah"

"...And you don't see a problem with that?"

I am very surprised how many christians -don't- think this is a problem.