Your take on transitioning but keeping a male voice?

[azSam]

Well darn, we'd all better go back to our original male selves then as to society in general, a female is a person born that way with the whole xx chromosome thing going on. The whole "obligation" bit is just silly. Its up to the individual on how they wish to be perceived by others. They don't have to conform unless they wish to.  If that were the case, we'd better set all those butch lesbians straight and femmy dudes too. And hey. while we're at it, that whole homosexual thing is a bit dodgy on conforming to society's standards of what a relationship and sex is about too, isn't it?

Butch Lesbians and flamboyant gay men are now largely acceptable standards. If you read what I wrote previously, I already covered that. What is not considered as an "acceptable standard" by our society is a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression.

The gay community fought for decades to get where they are at now, it didn't happen overnight. Yes these things can change, and they should, but it takes time. One cannot blindly assume that society will automatically change overnight.

Transitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state.  While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either.  I hope other people feel the same way.  It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.

Very very well put. I don't live in a constant fear. I worked hard on my appearance and on my voice. I walk around with a true confidence and no one challenges that I am female. I am just stating that it's foolish to unnecessarily put oneself in harm's way, when it can be avoided with a bit of work. I've even offered to help people with it.

Living and being perceived as a woman is not so narrow as I feel you're defining it.  I get what you're driving at, and agree to a certain extent, but also feel that there are as many grey areas here as there are individuals and their reasons for going through this process. 

I agree. Different strokes for different folks. But the more "grey area" that people abide in, the more potential danger they could be in. Again, I feel that this can be avoided.

The only absolute "obligations" I have involve taxes and mortality.  You're playing fairly loose with semantics while making some pretty blunt strokes with a one-size-fits-all brush.  There are so many potential mitigating factors, unique to each individual, that have the potential to fly in the face of your absolutes it is stunning.

I never meant to come across as though I believe "one-size-fits-all". I certainly understand completely that there are individual circumstances. I see it this way; we all transition to be our happy, true selves. I personally hated ever being identified as male, so I worked hard so that would NEVER happen again. I figure most transwomen on this site (excluding the more genderqueer folk) feel the same way. If your voice causes you to be identified as male why wouldn't you want to change it? If you don't mind being identified as male, well then I feel something is wrong. You may be genderqueer. Someone who truly identifies as being female should not want to be identified as male for any reason.

The world does have to deal with it, at least my corner of the world while I am in it.  On my terms as well as their own.  How each of us carries ourselves before, during and always is going to be tailored and tempered by where, who and what we are and will absolutely evolve as our experience grows, changes and moves forward. 

"Your problem"..."their society".....as if by default, the two are mutually exclusive and we are no longer a part of that same society.  By implying that we are not somehow still included in society, that by seeking reconciliation between our inner and outer selves, we've abandoned our rights of inclusion?  That is just as bigoted as anything crafted and intentionally aimed to make someone feel "less-than" for walking this path. 

Again, I apologize if that is how I came across. I certainly believe that we should have the same rights and inclusion as everyone else. Like it or not though, the world considers us, in many cases, to be unsavory. I believe that things can change, but in a safer, less "loud and proud" approach. "Loud and Proud" works for gay rights, but as you stated previously one size does not fit all. I believe that the best way we can initiate any kind of change is from the inside, more-or-less covertly. We're smart people, I'd even say we're smarter than average, we don't need to resort to "Loud and Proud".

I agree that certain changes NEED to happen. But maybe we should reevaluate what needs to change. The female voice, pitch, timbre, resonance; these are things largely out of their control. It's not societal gender-role that woman have higher, less resonant voices. Sure you can talk like a butch lesbian and pull off being female, I applaud you if you do, and that's fantastic. You would still be falling in the range of what is largely accepted to be "female".

But a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression is simply awkward in the best of situations. Why is it awkward? Because, genetic cis-women do not naturally possess the ability to do so.

I don't say these things to come across as mean. I apologize, sincerely if I sound that way. I do it out of concern. I hate the thought of any of us being hurt, be it mentally or physically, because of our unfortunate circumstances. It is out of genuine concern that I adamantly insist on trying to blend with society.

[azSam]

Darn I forgot to look on the next page. Oh well, my response was long enough.

I really don't want to see people get heated over this discussion. We're all family, and we can discuss this with civility and peace. We are all here just listening to each others ideas, not trying to prove who is right and who is wrong.

No one is any more or less trans than anyone else. I deeply believe that.

I also believe that being feminine does not mean you have to wear a pink bow in your hair while wearing fluffy dresses and dancing with butterflies. Being female covers a wide, vast range. But, unfortunately our society is narrow. If you want to be accepted by society you need to fall within their narrow range.

If you don't care about society, or what society thinks, more power to you. I'm really not that strong. It's a very brave way to face the world.

[Miki]

I don't say these things to come across as mean. I apologize, sincerely if I sound that way. I do it out of concern. I hate the thought of any of us being hurt, be it mentally or physically, because of our unfortunate circumstances. It is out of genuine concern that I adamantly insist on trying to blend with society.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify.  It makes it easier to avoid reading into text without all the context in play, so, thanks

Reading back, I can admit that I got touchy with wording and intent here.  Sometimes it is easier to react to how someone says something than what they are actually trying to convey, and I apologize for that. 

My cross to bear is having been told, at a support group no less, that no matter what I do, what steps I take, what surgeries I endure, that I'll never, ever pass and that by even trying I was "making it harder for the rest of us."  That I should "give up and just learn to deal with the reality of it."  That was early on, and I almost let that one experience derail me completely.  It was a crushing thing to hear at the time, and while it still stings, I think I've gained the ability to take other people projecting their angst in my direction with more than a few grains of salt. 

So for me, personally, anything and everything I can do to be who I am, voice included, makes sense, but I have to remain a staunch supporter of the premise that everyone has an inherent right to choose their own path in this, or anything.  That includes recognizing that people have the right to fail as well, but never based on my personal standards or overarching judgement, but only their own.

-Miki

[pretty]

So my cisfemale wife is supposed to transition to male since she never did any of these things?  NO ONE gets to define who is and isn't trans.  I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.

Well, she didn't transition to female so it's not weird to be however she is...

If I said I wanna be a vampire but I love garlic, I faint at the sight of blood, I think fangs are gross, I'm not into capes and bats scare me, people might be like "okay, where's the vampire part though? Are you sure you want to be a vampire?" But if I just happened to be a vampire, nobody would be like "are you sure you want to be a vampire" 'cause I didn't choose to be one.

The point is that once you decide in no uncertain terms that your birth gender is wrong and you want to change it, you are accepting, to some level, a stereotype for yourself. Because in the first place, gender is about a general stereotype of certain behaviors that apply more to either men or women. So sure, you can go, "well women can do and be anything!" But the other side of that coin is that men can also do and be anything. It's just that women and men are going to have a harder time doing some things because they're not typical things for women/men to do/be.

So if most of the things someone wants to do are typical of men for whatever reason, and socially that keeps becoming a brick wall they hit in transition, at that point, what would they gain from calling themselves a woman? And how do you even define "woman" if it's:

-not about your physical sex
-not about your orientation
-not about how you behave
-not about the things you like
-not about the way you present yourself to the world

I'm not being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but I am being "more gendered than thou" I guess, because I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.

[Jeneva]

I have noted there seems to be a group of trans people obsessed with this idea that it is "pass or you will be murdered" deal. Yes there are stats showing being trans = more like to be attacked but none of these factor in the % of these attacks that occur because of high risk behavior. I feel almost all of this higher % of risk is based on many of these trans people being sex workers and/or playing the "I'm gonna date st8 guys and not tell them" and the reaction from discovery. Some project this false concept that being trans walking down the street is a high risk behavior. I'm sure glad I don't live my life in fear like this.

I agree that this thread is massively overstating the risk of physical harm.

I am just stating that it's foolish to unnecessarily put oneself in harm's way, when it can be avoided with a bit of work.

But are they really in harm's way?  This thread is greatly exaggerating the threat of physical harm.  I live in the middle of the bible belt and have never had anyone physically threaten me even at my most non-passing in both rural and city environments.

If you don't mind being identified as male, well then I feel something is wrong. You may be genderqueer. Someone who truly identifies as being female should not want to be identified as male for any reason.

Do you see how this fits the standard ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou argument - "If X then not trans"  Has anyone said they actually like being identified as male?  And even if they did someone else has no right to deny they are trans.

I agree that certain changes NEED to happen. But maybe we should reevaluate what needs to change. The female voice, pitch, timbre, resonance; these are things largely out of their control. It's not societal gender-role that woman have higher, less resonant voices. Sure you can talk like a butch lesbian and pull off being female, I applaud you if you do, and that's fantastic. You would still be falling in the range of what is largely accepted to be "female".

But a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression is simply awkward in the best of situations. Why is it awkward? Because, genetic cis-women do not naturally possess the ability to do so.

But how many men can do a Barry White impression without trying really hard.  Someone saying they aren't changing their voice doesn't automatically mean they sound like Barry White.  What if their voice were already in the fuzzy zone?  Sure if they tried they could likely sound more feminine, but perhaps they have enough?

[Padma]

... I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.

And therein lies the problem. Because you can't understand why women aren't all feminine and heterosexual, this discussion can only go round in circles. If you can accept that some women are not feminine, and some women are not heterosexual - and if you can accept (as seems very difficult for you) that some of these women were born with the wrong body parts and are seeking to redress that, then we have an actual discussion. But for the moment, there's no point.

[Jeneva]

Well, she didn't transition to female so it's not weird to be however she is...

If I said I wanna be a vampire but I love garlic, I faint at the sight of blood, I think fangs are gross, I'm not into capes and bats scare me, people might be like "okay, where's the vampire part though? Are you sure you want to be a vampire?" But if I just happened to be a vampire, nobody would be like "are you sure you want to be a vampire" 'cause I didn't choose to be one.

  And a transsexual choses?

So if most of the things someone wants to do are typical of men for whatever reason, and socially that keeps becoming a brick wall they hit in transition, at that point, what would they gain from calling themselves a woman? And how do you even define "woman" if it's:

-not about your physical sex
-not about your orientation
-not about how you behave
-not about the things you like
-not about the way you present yourself to the world

I'm not being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but I am being "more gendered than thou" I guess, because I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.

I'm not even sure how to reply to this it is so staggering. 
dash 1- Is that supposed to mean that transsexual women aren't women because they have XY?  Really?
dash 2-Are you really denying the existence of ciswomen lesbians?
dash 3-Is a tomboy still a women then?  Or are only the cheerleaders true women?
dash 4-Can I please have a copy of the handbook that describes all the things I should like to be considered a woman?  Ooops, my wife and I both like to cook, but neither of us likes to clean.  Does that mean that neither of us are women?
dash 5-Where do you live that most women aren't wearing jeans or slacks most of the time?  Around here I suspect that 75% of ciswomen would fail this test.

How someone identifies is their own personal decision and you don't get to judge it.  I suspect that a large percentage of cis-women lesbians would fail ALL (but the "first) of those "tests".

[pretty]

  And a transsexual choses?

I'm not even sure how to reply to this it is so staggering. 
dash 1- Is that supposed to mean that transsexual women aren't women because they have XY?  Really?
dash 2-Are you really denying the existence of ciswomen lesbians?
dash 3-Is a tomboy still a women then?  Or are only the cheerleaders true women?
dash 4-Can I please have a copy of the handbook that describes all the things I should like to be considered a woman?  Ooops, my wife and I both like to cook, but neither of us likes to clean.  Does that mean that neither of us are women?
dash 5-Where do you live that most women aren't wearing jeans or slacks most of the time?  Around here I suspect that 75% of ciswomen would fail this test.

How someone identifies is their own personal decision and you don't get to judge it.  I suspect that a large percentage of cis-women lesbians would fail ALL (but the "first) of those "tests".

You're focusing too much on each individual point. I'm not saying any one unusual thing makes it weird to say you identify as a woman. I'm saying if it's none of those things, then what is it?

Most women are feminine in most respects and masculine in a few. That's normal.

Most women are not masculine in most respects. And those who are probably don't strongly identify as a woman.

[azSam]

I think the real discussion at hand is: Define "Woman" - I personally believe that a woman is nothing more than gender roles formed by one's society, with a few anatomical differences from male.

Will there be different opinions? .... indubitably.

I don't mean to overstate the presence of a physical threat to oneself if they fail to pass; but you simply cannot ignore it. It's very real.

As I also stated, I do not subscribe to any belief of "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" - I fully believe that we are our own people and that no one can be more or less "->-bleeped-<-" than others. That feels like such a vulgar way to put it. It doesn't matter if you're genderqueer, transwoman, transman, or whatever other billions of labels we have, no one is wrong.

Saying "Barry White Impression" was supposed to be a humorous way to say that genetic women do not have deep, resonant voices. And if you want to pass, then it's necessary to address that. If you don't care about passing more power to you. But society may (and almost certainly will, in various circles) shun you, which can cause mental harm.

[pretty]

I think the real discussion at hand is: Define "Woman" - I personally believe that a woman is nothing more than gender roles formed by one's society, with a few anatomical differences from male.

Yea, I would agree...

I think a lot of times people want to put the idea of womanhood on a pedestal or make it some kind of mysterious thing but what is it really? I don't think it's too deep of a concept. So I like wearing makeup and looking fab, I like dresses and skirts and pretty or elegant clothes, I have a boyfriend and I don't get into a lot of masculine things. So I would say, "okay, it makes more sense for me to live as a woman because it suits who I am." Of course, I have to do some things to pass then (though I happen to like having a feminine voice), and everybody has to do social posturing to some extent but the overall change is still toward being myself.

But yea everybody can do what they want, I'm sorry I was just trying to make sense of it 

[Sarah Louise]

This topic has gotten too far afield, too contentious and will never come to an agreed upon decision, so,

Its Locked.