How do I explain to other Christians the Laws of Leviticus?

[dalebert]

[SarahM777]

That is a bold statement. Could you perhaps demonstrate? I would greatly appreciate it if you show me that you can believe the earth to be flat, and I don't mean to pretend to believe or just say you believe. I mean truly and wholeheartedly be convinced that the earth is flat. On your own command I want you turn 100% certain earth is flat in spite of all contradictory evidence.

I myself do not believe the earth is flat but there are those who are pushing for a flat earth.
They are called the Flat Earth Society. They even have there own web site so...... The only way one can believe it is by choice they have chosen to believe it.

If it is our altruism you are referring to I think that can be explained with evolution. Humans need their flock to survive, and for the flock to survive the humans need to be altruistic.
Yes, but they differ in that human laws can be know to be in effect. The alleged laws of god can not. Think about it this way, should the members of an isolated tribe in the Amazon rainforest be punished by god for not believing in him? It wouldn't seem fair as they don't know that god exists. It's the same thing. Having heard claims of his existence is not the same as knowing he exists.

There is a problem with trying to explain how we got the law if we are evolved from rocks.
Going back far enough that is the statement of evolution.We came from rain falling on the ground causing erosion,collecting in a pond and life coming from it.
If evolution is true then why is it wrong for a bully to take some one someone elses lunch? If it's only survival of the strongest and most fit how then can one say it's stealing? It makes no sense. Then what makes it wrong to murder? If we are nothing but pond scum why is it wrong? Then perhaps those that say we are freaks of nature are correct because that is all we are then.
The law only has meaning if there is someone above in authority to enforce the law. If there is no authority to enforce the law then the law becomes meaningless.

Yes, but they differ in that human laws can be know to be in effect. The alleged laws of god can not. Think about it this way, should the members of an isolated tribe in the Amazon rainforest be punished by god for not believing in him? It wouldn't seem fair as they don't know that god exists. It's the same thing. Having heard claims of his existence is not the same as knowing he exists.

God has shown His laws. God writes them in our hearts. God also gave the laws to Moses. We know what is right our conscience tells us. If we are from pond scum then a conscience makes no sense there is no need for it. A conscience is a detriment to survival of the fittest


The Bible tells us of the greatest rescue mission of all time. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

[SarahM777]

If there is no higher authority on the law than why is Bernie Madoff in jail? With evolution human laws do not make any sense as the only goal is survival of the fittest. Life has no real value unless someone greater gives value to that life.
Taken to the end the only possible outcome is a Hitler who devalued life. We know he put to death Jews,homosexuals,Poles and others. What made him wrong if all we are is pond scum?

Somehow deep in our hearts we KNOW that stealing and murder are wrong. It can only come from a higher authority.

Even the youngest child knows that it is wrong for their brothers and sisters to take their toys,
to have their brother and sister hitting them. They even know its wrong so where do they get it unless it's ingrained in us from the beginning?

[MariaMx]

I myself do not believe the earth is flat but there are those who are pushing for a flat earth.
They are called the Flat Earth Society. They even have there own web site so...... The only way one can believe it is by choice they have chosen to believe it.

Yes, I know all about the Flat Earth Society, but that is completely besides the point. You claim belief can be chosen and I want you to demonstrate that to be true. If your claim is true then you should be able to start believing in a flat-earth at your own command. If you can't do it then why is it reasonable to expect non-believers to be able to do it?

There is a problem with trying to explain how we got the law if we are evolved from rocks.
Going back far enough that is the statement of evolution.We came from rain falling on the ground causing erosion,collecting in a pond and life coming from it.
If evolution is true then why is it wrong for a bully to take some one someone elses lunch? If it's only survival of the strongest and most fit how then can one say it's stealing? It makes no sense. Then what makes it wrong to murder? If we are nothing but pond scum why is it wrong? Then perhaps those that say we are freaks of nature are correct because that is all we are then.
The law only has meaning if there is someone above in authority to enforce the law. If there is no authority to enforce the law then the law becomes meaningless.

Because that kind of behavior is counterproductive to the well-being of society. The theory of evolution does not state that the one that can steal, kill and maim the most will be most likely to survive in the long run. In battle of war this might be true but we humans are flock animals and we need our flock to survive and pass on our genes. If one of our distant ancestors were to kill every other member of the flock this individual would not survive and procreate . In this example "survival of the fittest" simply means survival of those individuals that can ensure survival of the flock. If we didn't have these traits ingrained in our instincts through natural selection we wouldn't be here today.

God has shown His laws. God writes them in our hearts. God also gave the laws to Moses.

These are claims, not facts.

We know what is right our conscience tells us.

Asked and answered.

If we are from pond scum then a conscience makes no sense there is no need for it. A conscience is a detriment to survival of the fittest

Not in a setting where conscience is key to survival.

[MariaMx]

If there is no higher authority on the law than why is Bernie Madoff in jail? With evolution human laws do not make any sense as the only goal is survival of the fittest. Life has no real value unless someone greater gives value to that life.

Of course it can still have value. My life for instance has value to me, my family, my friends, my co-workers and my community.

Somehow deep in our hearts we KNOW that stealing and murder are wrong. It can only come from a higher authority.

False dilemma*. Evolution can account for this.

* Edit: 'False dilemma' is a bit inaccurate as in this case the second option is excluded as opposed to the third . I have heard of it as the 'Fallacy of Limited Imagination' but I'm just not sure. If anyone knows please let me know.

[SarahM777]

Yes, I know all about the Flat Earth Society, but that is completely besides the point. You claim belief can be chosen and I want you to demonstrate that to be true. If your claim is true then you should be able to start believing in a flat-earth at your own command. If you can't do it then why is it reasonable to expect non-believers to be able to do it?

I only have a short time this morning so I will only touch on this for the moment. You have two different things in that statement. First one can choose to believe in evolution or one can can believe in creation,or the third option is creative evolution. Presented with the interpretations of the evidence you will chose to believe one of the three and reject the others because they all can't be true,everyone does that,there are no exceptions. You will be presented with the evidences that the earth is either flat or a sphere and you will either chose to believe that the earth is flat or you will accept and believe the earth is a sphere.  That is the choice of what one choices to believe at first.

Now to change off of that belief often times takes time but that in itself does not mean that it can't happen very quickly. What needs to happen is that the foundation of said belief needs to be shaken if it is shaken badly enough one can very quickly change their belief. earthquake,floods,and major life changes can be one way of looking at things a whole lot differently, all of these things point to getting ones house in order because life is very short and tomorrow may not come for you. Not in the longer time frame testimonies,seeking scripture,evidences,and others things like it are like small pebbles that added over time can cause one to change their minds and beliefs.

Biblical repentance is just that a change of heart and mind,turning away from sin and turning to God. It implies that it can be done and does happen. The reason most don't is because they don't want to give up their sins and would rather that God would have nothing to do with their lives.

To often the right question is never asked,to often the question is asked why a Holy,Righteous,Just,Loving God would cast sinners into hell. The question that should be asked is why a person that wants nothing to do with God,will not come to know Him,will not love Him,will not trust Him,and will not obey and wants nothing to do with Him ever want to spend eternity with Him and those who do chose to do those things. It would be the greatest torture that one could ever imagine. It would be like living with a person who you totally despise day after day after day,forever and ever and ever, with no  relief ever.

[SarahM777]

Part of our problem is way to often is that we like to compare ourselves to someone else. It's way to easy to point out someone else and say I am pretty good not like that person there. Let's face it most of us are not Hitlers,Stalins,Dahmers,or a whole host of pretty bad men and women. I can honestly say I am not so bad. But that is NOT the comparison that needs to be made. God has given the law as a plumb line to compare where we are at with where He says we should be.

Now we do not think it's all that bad with a little white lie. It's still a lie. It's against God's law.
Jesus said if you even look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery.
God has also said taking His name in vain such as in cursing with it is against His laws.

So what does this mean in an average lifetime using a typical male.

If one were to use a little white lie just 1 time a day in 65 years it comes to 23,725 lies.
If that same person were to curse using God's name just 1 time in a day from the time he is 15 up to 65 it comes to 18,250 times that His name has been taken in vain.
If that same person were to have lustful thoughts just 3 times in that same time frame they have committed adultery 54,750 times.
That same person in the course of 65 years has broken God's law 96,725 times on just 3 of His laws.
The thing is no one may ever see it because this person seems to have it all together on the outside he loves his wife,takes care of his kids,go to work and works hard every day,works with the poor,feeds the hungry etc etc. even doing all these things he is a law breaker and it way to often way more than just once or twice.

Somehow someone must pay the price for justice. And that is where in God's great wisdom,mercy and love for us, not wanting anyone to go to hell,knowing that we could not pay the price He is telling us

You have broken my laws and you can not do it on your the price for sin is eternal separation from me to a place that was prepared for the demons,you were never meant to go there,I will show the way back to me through the perfect sacrifice for the covering of your sins for those who will accept it,I will give up my Son who will take on my wrath for your sins,His body with be broken,beaten and shattered. My wrath will be ended to those who will come to me through My One and Only Perfect Son. He has chosen to take your place and pay the price that you can not. But I do require two things repent and put your trust in Jesus. Trust in His sacrifice. Trust that He is who He said He is. Trust that He is the only and true way to come to me.  Trust that in his shed blood and I WILL remove your sins as far from me as far as the universe is wide and I WILL REMEMBER THEM NO MORE.

You can not earn it,pay for it,or work for it,it is by MY GRACE ALONE. No one deserves it but it is given because MY love for you is so great no price was to high to bring you back to ME. Trust in Him and I will make you my sons and daughters and I will bring you to be with me to know me in perfection where there is no pain,sickness,poverty or death. All will have all that they need. For those who love MY SON He will prepare a place for you,for in my house their are many mansions. But reject Him on your peril,for by rejecting HIM there is no covering for your sin and my wrath will be poured on those who will pour contempt upon His Holy and Perfect sacrifice. He was willing to step down from His place in glory,He was willing to GIVE UP EVERYTHING and submit to my will and lived a perfect life.
As a sign from me that His sacrifice was worthy I RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD. He was shown to be raised from the dead by the 11 and then again to 500 trust worthy eye witnesses that laid their lives down to proclaim this truth.
They were willing to suffer torture,pain,suffering,scorn and ridicule because they saw my risen Son. Nothing will EVER make it untrue. My words will endure forever.

[MariaMx]

I only have a short time this morning so I will only touch on this for the moment. You have two different things in that statement. First one can choose to believe in evolution or one can can believe in creation,or the third option is creative evolution. Presented with the interpretations of the evidence you will chose to believe one of the three and reject the others because they all can't be true,everyone does that,there are no exceptions. You will be presented with the evidences that the earth is either flat or a sphere and you will either chose to believe that the earth is flat or you will accept and believe the earth is a sphere.  That is the choice of what one choices to believe at first.

Any rational person will go with the option that makes the most sense. That is not choosing, it is being convinced. If one were to go with the option that is not the most convincing one one would be biased and/or in denial. If one finds option A most convincing but still claim to believe in B one is not being truthful to oneself and others.

Now to change off of that belief often times takes time but that in itself does not mean that it can't happen very quickly. What needs to happen is that the foundation of said belief needs to be shaken if it is shaken badly enough one can very quickly change their belief. earthquake,floods,and major life changes can be one way of looking at things a whole lot differently, all of these things point to getting ones house in order because life is very short and tomorrow may not come for you.

What you are describing here is belief being changed by external factor, not by choice. People are not bound to have such experiences.

Not in the longer time frame testimonies,seeking scripture,evidences,and others things like it are like small pebbles that added over time can cause one to change their minds and beliefs.

Yes, conditioning can change ones belief. THe only problem is, what would motivate a non-believer to do such a thing? If you don't believe in flat-earth, why would you put in an effort to start believing in flat-earth?

Biblical repentance is just that a change of heart and mind,turning away from sin and turning to God. It implies that it can be done and does happen. The reason most don't is because they don't want to give up their sins and would rather that God would have nothing to do with their lives.

One would already have to be a believer for this to hold true. I don't believe because I don't find the claim of there being a god credible, not because of the consequence [having to give up my what is considered sin according to said religion] of believing.

To often the right question is never asked,to often the question is asked why a Holy,Righteous,Just,Loving God would cast sinners into hell. The question that should be asked is why a person that wants nothing to do with God,will not come to know Him,will not love Him,will not trust Him,and will not obey and wants nothing to do with Him ever want to spend eternity with Him and those who do chose to do those things. It would be the greatest torture that one could ever imagine. It would be like living with a person who you totally despise day after day after day,forever and ever and ever, with no  relief ever.

But the same can be asked of you in regards to the god you don't believe in. Why do you want nothing to do with the god of the Aztecs? The answer is quiet simple actually. Why would one be concerned about not believing in something that is obviously not true? There are thousands of gods that you don't believe in, I just believe in one less than you.

And that brings us back to the original question: If belief can not be chosen, why does god want to punish the unbeliever?

[SarahM777]

At this point I see that we are talking at each other but our views are just to far apart for me to continue on with this
as the points are being missed as our views are to far apart and what one of us is saying is not what the other is hearing. (It' is on both sides)

[MariaMx]

At this point I see that we are talking at each other but our views are just to far apart for me to continue on with this
as the points are being missed as our views are to far apart and what one of us is saying is not what the other is hearing. (It' is on both sides)

I have to disagree. I know what you are saying but I think you are wrong. For me the core of the discussion is whether one can choose to start believing in something that is contradictory to the currently held belief without convincing. One can be convinced, yes, but not by ones volition alone. There has to at least be motive or some form of incentive, if there isn't, one will obviously not put in an effort to cause oneself to start believing in something one sees as not being true.

You don't believe in the gods of the old Greeks. To you they are just old man made stories from an ancient time when they didn't know any better, and therefor you will not be interested in doing what ever it would takes to make yourself believe in them. Without motive you won't do it. Maybe someone would come along and tell you that if you don't start believing in them Zevs will torture you for all eternity in the afterlife with his bolts of lightning. Would that perhaps motivate you? After all, you don't want Zevs to torture you, right? But it doesn't matter. The threat won't motivate you because you don't believe in the story anyway. No motive and no convincing equals no belief. Beliefs can't be chosen, they just happen, or they don't.

It would be great though, to be able to choose what to believe. I don't like the fact that I was born male. If I could simply choose to believe I was not, then that would be just great.

We can leave it at that if you like.

[SarahM777]

I know what it is I am feeling a bit frustrated with myself because I am not sure if I am coming across clearly. It's at that point I just need to step back and a think a little more if I can state it a bit better and clearer.

I have to disagree. I know what you are saying but I think you are wrong. For me the core of the discussion is whether one can choose to start believing in something that is contradictory to the currently held belief without convincing. One can be convinced, yes, but not by ones volition alone. There has to at least be motive or some form of incentive, if there isn't, one will obviously not put in an effort to cause oneself to start believing in something one sees as not being true.

I do agree with you once the core beliefs are formed it is very difficult to come to a different set of beliefs. It usually takes outside circumstances to change them.


Because of what we are dealing with we get the down side far to often. God is so awesome and loves us so..... much and once we are His children. He is there with us in our pain,He works on our hearts that we can love Him,
He meets our needs (not our wants) He walks with us and speaks to us. He will never leave us or forsake those who belong to Him.

It would be great though, to be able to choose what to believe. I don't like the fact that I was born male. If I could simply choose to believe I was not, then that would be just great.

I struggled a long long time but God gave me His peace to be able to come to terms with it. I am a woman in a man's body. He calls me by my name. He calls me Sarah. It doesn't mean it's easy because unless He heals my body I will have to live like this for the rest of my life but that's ok because when I see Him I will be totally and completely whole. He will make as I should have been. He's been there in the darkness night when the pain was so great and all I could do was sob myself to sleep. I am no longer in torment of mind. This is the part that is so seldom heard.

[MariaMx]

I'm curious Sarah, do you think it is a sin to transition?

[Susan]

Saw this on Facebook...

Jesus said it best, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Leviticus lists a lot of prohibitions the vast majority we routinely ignore, why should this one, out of all of those still apply today. Because "Christians," pick and choose to support whatever they want the Bible to say.

So tell them that it no longer applies.

[SarahM777]

I'm curious Sarah, do you think it is a sin to transition?

Maria,

I don't believe that it is a sin. I do believe that like any other birth defect it is not wrong to correct it. The only thing is to make 100% sure that this is the right path.
For myself I am not to do so as it is what God has laid on my heart, I am to trust Him on how this will all work out.
I also know I am not to marry again. (Long story about that) but this is my path and it may not be yours.

[MariaMx]

Maria,

I don't believe that it is a sin. I do believe that like any other birth defect it is not wrong to correct it. The only thing is to make 100% sure that this is the right path.
For myself I am not to do so as it is what God has laid on my heart, I am to trust Him on how this will all work out.
I also know I am not to marry again. (Long story about that) but this is my path and it may not be yours.

I'm glad to hear you don't think it is. My path has already taken me to where I need to be. In my reality there is no other life than this one and thus only one shot at happiness.

I wish you the best of luck on your path.

[MaidofOrleans]

Leviticus is a joke, not only because its not even in the original language so is not properly translated but seems to simply be a fall back for false Christians to justify their own personal bigotry.

To be Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not the teachings of Leviticus. Jesus supersedes any other teaching or laws prior to him and I can tell you with good faith that he would have nothing to do with the judgmental laws of Leviticus. Jesus was loving and accepting of everyone, he was sent by God for the very reason that the strict sinless lifestyle put forward by Leviticus was impossible for humanity to follow. All are sinners in their own way.

[Shawn Sunshine]

I need to have this on a nice giant sized poster Nice picture!

[Incarnadine]

You are missing the point here. I am talking about people that don't believe, and belief in something is not something that can be chosen, therefore people can I limited the scope of my argument to the unbeliever for simplicities sake, but since you mention it, does god differentiate between the unbeliever, the murderer, the thief and the liar? Or is it eternal hell fire for all?

To answer the question of differentiation, here's a verse that might clarify...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:

According to this verse, not only are those who do not believe condemned, but those who are afraid to confess, afraid to believe are also condemned.  According to the Bible, if you've offended in one point, you've broken all of God's law.  It seems to be a true/false, on/off classification, rather than a good enough/bad enough classification for the deservification (<-- new word) of hell.

Hope


Edit:  Ugh - how did I not see a whole 'nother page of replies before this one!  Doesn't look like the conversation is still within this context.  Oh well!

[MariaMx]

Edit:  Ugh - how did I not see a whole 'nother page of replies before this one!  Doesn't look like the conversation is still within this context.  Oh well!

Ha-ha! Thanks for the reply anyway