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Conservative Supreme Court justices hands transgender people a serious invasion

Started by Shana A, April 04, 2012, 07:26:11 AM

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Jamie D

Quote from: Beverley on April 05, 2012, 03:30:37 AM
I never said it was, but it could become one if the rights of the system trump the rights of the citizens.

If you are not worried about it then fair enough. I am not worried about it either as I do not have live with it. When I read stuff like this or some of the other ways in which the US treats TG people (Tennessee springs to mind as just one example) I just get less and less inclined to ever visit the place.

To an outsider like me, it seems to be in social decline, which is sad and I feel sorry for those of you who do have to live with some of the zanier regulations and laws.

Certainly the statists want to take the U.S. there.

There are not many of us left who have a thorough understanding of the founding principles and the role of natural law theory in the origin of the country.
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tekla

You are not likely to be convicted of a crime if you lacked intent.  Your argument is largely a strawman.

Nope, that's just total bull->-bleeped-<-.  As your law GED must have covered, "intent follows the bullet"*.  It does not matter if you 'intended' to do it, all that matters is that you put a chain of events into motion that end up in illegal activities.  About the only time 'intent' matters in a US court is not in innocence, but rather in terms of enhanced penalties for things like 'hate crimes' which do take intent into account, or in the distinction between murder one, and lesser killings.  But you may not have 'intended' or had a guilty mind when you made a math error in your favor on your tax returns, try getting the IRS to care or understand.  You can be charged (and many are) with being an 'accessory' after, before or during the crime even if you did not know a crime was being committed, or even if the criminal lied to you about what was going on and why.


But here is the funny part:
The fact of the matter is law-abiding persons, trans or not, have nothing to worry about.
yet, prior to that you noted that though the person was in fact, innocent, that matter - the innocence - was just a minor twist in the story - so which is it?  Do innocent people have nothing to fear, or is 'innocence' as a matter of law now a secondary consideration? Which is exactly what it seems to have become.  You can't have it both ways.

In fact, this is one more ruling that moves the goalposts further away from 'innocent until proven guilty' to LA standard of "we'll arrest them now, and find out what they are guilty of later."  It is a very radical revision of the most basic foundations of US law.

If, as the Court found, that: "people detained for minor offenses** can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals" (directly citing both Tim McVeigh and Mohammed Atta) then you can expect a growing trend of treating even the most minor offences like you just blew up the World Trade Center or the OK City Federal Building - or at the very least, you would like to blow them up.  And that's no joke at all.  (also that's an idiot's argument, as neither McVeigh or Atta was guilty of doing something - like shooting a prison guard - that strip searching them would have prevented in the first place.)

Not to see how such a ruling has deeply chilling ramifications for everyone lack a certain critical thinking component.




* - If person A goes to kill person B, but misses and instead kills person C who is some random by-stander, because the intent was murder one, the crime is murder one - even if you didn't put a cap into the right homeslice.

** - and this was very minor, the person was not the driver who committed some minor traffic infraction (so the long held 'you have no civil rights as a driver because driving is a privilege not a right' didn't even apply), they were only a passenger in the car.  So that even being in the car now also means you are exercising 'privilege' not 'rights' and are subject to whatever the police can come up with.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Devlyn

Beverly, did you know this site comes out of Tennessee? They can't be all bad! Hugs, Devlyn
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Beverley

Quote from: Devlyn on April 05, 2012, 01:06:15 PM
Beverly, did you know this site comes out of Tennessee? They can't be all bad! Hugs, Devlyn

I know there is a lot of good stuff over there Devlyn, but I do not choose to expose myself to the plentiful bad stuff just to get to the good.



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Jeneva

Quote from: Devlyn on April 05, 2012, 01:06:15 PM
Beverly, did you know this site comes out of Tennessee? They can't be all bad! Hugs, Devlyn
Well.......  The politicians are fairly backward.  Stomp a mud hole Floyd didn't get his bathroom bill, and don't say gay got postponed.  But even then there are some exceedingly stupid laws getting passed (teaching creationism...).
Blessed Be!

Jeneva Caroline Samples
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on April 05, 2012, 11:57:37 AM
You are not likely to be convicted of a crime if you lacked intent.  Your argument is largely a strawman.

Nope, that's just total bull->-bleeped-<-.  As your law GED must have covered, "intent follows the bullet"*.  It does not matter if you 'intended' to do it, all that matters is that you put a chain of events into motion that end up in illegal activities.  About the only time 'intent' matters in a US court is not in innocence, but rather in terms of enhanced penalties for things like 'hate crimes' which do take intent into account, or in the distinction between murder one, and lesser killings.  But you may not have 'intended' or had a guilty mind when you made a math error in your favor on your tax returns, try getting the IRS to care or understand.  You can be charged (and many are) with being an 'accessory' after, before or during the crime even if you did not know a crime was being committed, or even if the criminal lied to you about what was going on and why.


But here is the funny part:
The fact of the matter is law-abiding persons, trans or not, have nothing to worry about.
yet, prior to that you noted that though the person was in fact, innocent, that matter - the innocence - was just a minor twist in the story - so which is it?  Do innocent people have nothing to fear, or is 'innocence' as a matter of law now a secondary consideration? Which is exactly what it seems to have become.  You can't have it both ways.

In fact, this is one more ruling that moves the goalposts further away from 'innocent until proven guilty' to LA standard of "we'll arrest them now, and find out what they are guilty of later."  It is a very radical revision of the most basic foundations of US law.

If, as the Court found, that: "people detained for minor offenses** can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals" (directly citing both Tim McVeigh and Mohammed Atta) then you can expect a growing trend of treating even the most minor offences like you just blew up the World Trade Center or the OK City Federal Building - or at the very least, you would like to blow them up.  And that's no joke at all.  (also that's an idiot's argument, as neither McVeigh or Atta was guilty of doing something - like shooting a prison guard - that strip searching them would have prevented in the first place.)

Not to see how such a ruling has deeply chilling ramifications for everyone lack a certain critical thinking component.




* - If person A goes to kill person B, but misses and instead kills person C who is some random by-stander, because the intent was murder one, the crime is murder one - even if you didn't put a cap into the right homeslice.

** - and this was very minor, the person was not the driver who committed some minor traffic infraction (so the long held 'you have no civil rights as a driver because driving is a privilege not a right' didn't even apply), they were only a passenger in the car.  So that even being in the car now also means you are exercising 'privilege' not 'rights' and are subject to whatever the police can come up with.

Had Mr. Florence not had previous legal problems, there would have been no issue.

The way to prevent abuses in civil rights is to legislate what the police can, or cannot do.

Serious crimes require a criminal act and criminal intent.
It is right to punish only people we can blame - people who are culpable.
The principle of
men rea consists of four states of mind (levels of culpability).
The most culpable state of mind is purpose, followed by knowledge, recklessness, then negligence.
Most minor offenses dont require
mens rea - a voluntary act that causes criminal harm is enough.

"Even a dog distinguishes being stumbled over or being kicked." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

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tekla

You really don't get it do you?  It must be swell to be white and in LA...







For now.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2012, 12:35:50 AM
You really don't get it do you?  It must be swell to be white and in LA...

For now.

I'm not in LA.
I'm out in the semi-rural 'burbs.

We're not quite as jaded outside of The City.
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tekla

If, as the Court found, that: "people detained for minor offense can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals" then just wait till they figure out  that some people who have never been arrested are even more dangerous and devious.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Jamie D

Quote from: tekla on April 07, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
If, as the Court found, that: "people detained for minor offense can turn out to be the most devious and dangerous criminals" then just wait till they figure out  that some people who have never been arrested are even more dangerous and devious.

Is there anything there (in the Court's decision) which can not be remedied by legislation?
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tekla

I'm thinking it's going to be remedied by 8 more years of Democrats appointing SC justices.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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