ftms in female-only spaces

[Arch]

I knew a trans guy who belonged to a female-only organization and didn't want to give it up. He went on and on about the unfairness of it and this was such a supportive space and blah blah blah.

I understand the impulse to stick with something that was wonderful, but I don't really understand why someone who is staunchly male-identified would want to be in a female space where everyone sees you as a woman. And if you start transition and begin to pass most of the time, I kind of feel that it's definitely the time to leave.

It all depends on the organization. Some groups consider you an honorary female no matter what, and some trans men consider themselves honorary women by virtue of their upbringing/experience/anatomy.

So, I really don't get it, but I figure that YMMV.

P.S. Interesting to compare this with my last answer. (If it were me, I would never have joined in the first place...you couldn't drag me to a women-only organization/event.)

[supremecatoverlord]

I definitely disagree with this and don't understand why someone who identfies as male would want to be in a female identifying space.

[wheat thins are delicious]

I definitely disagree with this and don't understand why someone who identfies as male would want to be in a female identifying space.

Possibly fear of men.  But I agree that men shouldn't be in women only spaces.

[Arch]

And what to do with the genderqueers and androgynes??!!!

[supremecatoverlord]

Possibly fear of men.  But I agree that men shouldn't be in women only spaces.

Male identified people who are afraid of / intimidated by other men should not choose to be in an all female space anyway.
Even if someone wants to be "Oh, I was born female, so it's okay", they are not living as female at that moment and that should be what really matters.
The real problem here lies in when these organizations do not allow MTFs into their community, because they technically would be female identified just as everyone in their group and probably could relate more to the group as whole than most FTMs could.

I don't even technically identify as "FTM" so I may have no idea what I'm talking about though.

[supremecatoverlord]

And what to do with the genderqueers and androgynes??!!!

If people consider those their own separate gender identity, they should make their own groups in my opinion.
Although a problem arises when most everyday people would still classify these people as either "male" or "female".

[wheat thins are delicious]

Jason:  I was agreeing with you that male identified people shouldn't be in female spaces, I was just saying that fear is a possible reason some might choose to/want to be there.

[Stealthy]

I'm strongly against anyone who doesn't identify as female being in female only spaces...unless it's Dirt's blog, that is.

(says the CAFAB non-binary who still goes to an all-girl's school...though I'm in the process of leaving. I identified as female when I started there, and I can't leave yet because I don't have another school yet.)

[justmeinoz]

I guess the honest thing to do would be to  let everyone know that you are questioning your Gender Identification, and continue facilitating until they can find a replacement. 
After that you could remain in the group until you have decided on your position in the Gender Spectrum, and then leave in good conscience.

I object to "Womyn" because there is no such word!  It's an attempt to dodge reality by trying to delude oneself. 

Karen.

[Stealthy]

The word 'womyn' is also misogynist, funnily enough. This is because the word 'woman' evolved from the word 'wifman', and it was the 'man' section of that word which meant 'human', and is unrelated to the usage of 'man' to mean 'male'. Thus, by turning 'woman' into 'womyn', the part of the word that denotes women as human beings is removed.

And then there's the fact that it comes from a VERY transphobic era of feminism...

[Berserk]

I don't think it's up to anyone to tell a transguy whether or not he should attend a women-only space. Women's spaces have frequently been about providing a space free from misogyny and male social privilege. Despite that transguys are guys, unfortunately a great deal of people in society don't see us that way, especially transguys who aren't/can't/don't want to be on T. As such, there are also transguys who want to be included in spaces where they can also deal with experiencing misogyny and generally feel safe. It has more to do with how society treats you and sees you (which is why women end up experiencing so much section) than how you identify. Hence why a lot of these spaces now present themselves as spaces for women and trans people (including both transwomen and transmen).

Personally, I've never been into women's spaces. I've never felt comfortable there. But I'm not gonna judge a guy who feels he needs that space, either. That being said, I think there should be more spaces for trans/gender queer people to work through their experiences, and how those experiences, whether with sexism or otherwise, relate to other identities.

[Nygeel]

@Berserk at the same time, those spaces tend to use you exact argument for including trans men to exclude trans women (although they tend to use trans misogyny to exclude trans women).

[LivingInGrey]

I present myself as male when I'm out in public (sad face).

There's times and situations where, though I wished I could stomach being in what is or appears to be a male only space I've had to deal with not joining a particular group. I had to give up one of the things I liked a lot because the new area I moved to the people in the group for the new area were horrible people (co-ed group, but still the guys in that group were horrible people) because I couldn't 'thump my chest' like the rest of the 'gorilla's' in that group.

I'm finding it harder to be in group settings because if these types of experiences. I don't even want to think about what I might have to go through if I did transition to female and ended up going to a male dominated group setting where the wives/girlfriends collected in a corner to let the boys play and the guys knew/suspected me for being a male to female.

After a full transition joining a male only group setting would be like walking right into the lions den. I wouldn't consider it for a second (at least unarmed). 

[King Malachite]

For me, if you have not yet transitioned, and are perceived by people in general as F, I have no problem with it. 

OTOH, once you start to transition, I would not recommend going any more.  That early transition phase is very odd.  Once you have transitioned, you would probably feel more comfortable in men's only spaces.  I know I  was.  I still felt like a noob, but went anyway.

I wouldn't 'come out' in the group and then continue to hang out there.  I would wait to come out when I wanted everyone to start using my male name and pronouns, and I would no longer fit in a women's space.  But that's me.


Jay

This ^  I should know because I went to a women's meeting last month at my church and I present as female.  I had some inner conflicting emotions about it but I figured why not go.  Free food has no gender but if you are in transition it may not be a good idea.

[Zerro]

While I'm not the biggest fan of exclusionary spaces, I'm very much against (out/stealth) trans men being in women's spaces. They're women's spaces for a reason. If you identify as male, you're not supposed to be there. Trans men aren't some sort of men lite* that get to go wherever and do whatever they please, in my opinion.

It gets tough if you move to non-binary identities and people who aren't out or are still trying to figure things out, but yeah.

[Kyle_S]

I, personally would not be in female only spaces. This is why I avoid women's bathrooms, and feel kinda awkward at baby showers :/

I don't fit there. I would be making myself uncomfortable, as well as others.

I suppose, no, I cannot tell another guy that he is not allowed to go there, or should feel ashamed for doing so... but most transmen are trying to be accepted and treated as guys. Not only is this seeming to be taking a step backwards in transition and invalidating yourself, but if you are trying to be accepted as male, society will not usually allow such coin flippage at your leisure. Most of the time, its just a "pick one" deal. I understand that this is painful, but we have not changed everyone's attitudes towards gender/sex and we may never.

[Berserk]

@Berserk at the same time, those spaces tend to use you exact argument for including trans men to exclude trans women (although they tend to use trans misogyny to exclude trans women).

A few years ago, yeah, but a lot of queer-positive women's spaces are inclusive of both transwomen and transmen over here, these days. Unless you're going to some kind of Michfest bull->-bleeped-<- down in the States. Even so, I don't think that it should be a reason to exclude transmen. To me it should not be an "either/or" situation. Spaces should be more inclusive of both who want to enter the space, and we shouldn't use any transphobia that occurs in these spaces to exclude transwomen as excuses to exclude transmen. Hence why I also think many of these women and trans spaces are improving the situation more, or women's spaces that have times/days specifically restricted to women and trans people as a whole.

I also don't like this argument of "oh, transguys trying to be accepted as guys so they should no longer do certain things/enter certain spaces." Same ->-bleeped-<- is used to try to shame transguys who want to get pregnant or transguys who don't fit the cissexed idea of what a "man" should be. Finding solace in a woman's space as a transguy does not make the guy any less of a guy, nor mean he's claiming a woman's experience, so much as dealing with the fact of what society has done to him as a result of misinterpreting him as a woman when he is not.

[Adio]

Even after reading through this thread, I just don't understand.  It just doesn't make sense to me why any male would try to be in an outright stated females only space.

Trans men are men.  The space in question is for females only.  So why would any man (trans or not) be there?  To me, they shouldn't.  If the person wants to be around women, find a group that is composed of all or mostly women that isn't a strictly "females only" space.

 

[Nygeel]

A few years ago, yeah, but a lot of queer-positive women's spaces are inclusive of both transwomen and transmen over here, these days. Unless you're going to some kind of Michfest bull->-bleeped-<- down in the States. Even so, I don't think that it should be a reason to exclude transmen. To me it should not be an "either/or" situation. Spaces should be more inclusive of both who want to enter the space, and we shouldn't use any transphobia that occurs in these spaces to exclude transwomen as excuses to exclude transmen. Hence why I also think many of these women and trans spaces are improving the situation more, or women's spaces that have times/days specifically restricted to women and trans people as a whole.

I also don't like this argument of "oh, transguys trying to be accepted as guys so they should no longer do certain things/enter certain spaces." Same ->-bleeped-<- is used to try to shame transguys who want to get pregnant or transguys who don't fit the cissexed idea of what a "man" should be. Finding solace in a woman's space as a transguy does not make the guy any less of a guy, nor mean he's claiming a woman's experience, so much as dealing with the fact of what society has done to him as a result of misinterpreting him as a woman when he is not.

Women's colleges include trans men, don't include trans women. There was a women's health center in Illinois (I think) that provided hormones to trans patients but would only take care of the health of trans men and not women. Where I am, I can think of at least 5 monthly events that are listed as "Women and trans" but excludes all non-passing and "non-full time" trans women (as well as all AMAB trans people while all AFAB trans people are allowed). I've yet to see (locally) anything improve, although when there was opposition to these events, the organizer of two of them said they would rework the system around and try to find a way to be more inclusive...that was a year ago, and there was no response afterwards.

My problem is mostly with trans men using women's spaces while trans women are excluded from these same spaces. I'd actually like to see more spaces that are only for trans people, and no cis people...that'd be nice.

[pretty]

You know, I'm gonna be a little blunt here and say that this might not be such an issue if it weren't so frequently the case that trans men were very feminine and trans women very masculine.

To be completely frank, the only reason those spaces ALLOW trans men is because the kind of trans men that would be there probably happen to present and act like "men lite."

I think they would be significantly less comfortable with a masculine, passable trans man. If Sylvester Stallone entered one of these spaces and proved he was a trans man, do you think they'd let him in anyway?

And that's the same reason MTFs get excluded from female-only events, they give off too many male vibes in how they look and act and it makes people uncomfortable. A passable, feminine, full-time MTF would have no problem, probably not even if they discovered she was trans.

It's hard to totally look past a person's appearance and presentation, no matter how fair people are trying to be.

I think for anyone who likes to stay somewhat in-between the lines, it's best to stay away from binary-oriented spaces in general.