Gender Binaries and Gender Roles

[azSam]

I had gotten into a bit of a discussion on facebook. I had put a lot of work into this reply, but I didn't get much of a response. I guess maybe it was too much to rebuttal. I enjoy a healthy, mutual, and respectful debate of each other's views on things; and I am interested in hearing all of your views on this subject.

I had brought up the topic of passing. Another person said that passing is silly and that gender binaries are "passé" and that she passes as a human and that is all she needs. Well this got me to thinking. So I typed up this.... long winded reply.



The gender binary is believed to be a construct of our modern society. But the fact is it's been around for as long as there has been breathing creatures on this planet. Virtually all forms of sentient life live under this gender binary. Why? Because there are females and there are males. This is a physiological fact that holds true in millions of forms of life.

I'm not talking about Gender Roles, because you and I both know that a lot of traditional gender roles are silly. No, what I'm talking about is our very natural, evolutionarily driven gender binary. Perhaps mentally there is a "third gender" – but as far as nature cares, that third gender might as well never exist. Men use sperm to fertilize a female egg. We procreate, we survive, and we thrive. This "third gender" cannot survive without the natural gender binary of nature.

The sociological aspect of this gender binary makes perfect sense. The reason why women are women and men are men is simple to understand, that is how our evolutionary drive to procreate works. It is much simpler to have distinct, identifiable differences between the two sexes for easier procreation. You can find this everywhere in nature, look up sexual dimorphism. Our gender roles are largely evolutionarily driven.

Men were in charge because men were physically stronger due to testosterone acting as a strong steroid. Only recently in our modern society have women started to gain power and rights. Gender roles change over time and are as diverse as the number of cultures we have represented on earth. If you wish to exist in any society, you must "do as the romans do". You are pretty much required to live by their gender roles.

Why? Disregarding these gender roles in the very best of circumstances, you'll be viewed awkwardly; people may avoid you and without a doubt ridicule you behind your back. Even in the "AMAZING USA" you can be lawfully terminated from your job just for being Trans in a staggering number of states. In other societies you can be jailed and even executed.

While some of the gender roles that we face are silly and completely arbitrary, it's better to follow them and attempt to change them rather than completely disregard them. You'll live more peacefully and the people near you won't be uncomfortable. You can live a safer and more stable life.

I do agree that our traditional gender roles need to change and that is happening. But disregarding them is foolhardy and even unsafe.

I would venture to guess that you probably follow a good chunk of these gender binary specific fundamentals and even the gender roles assigned to these binaries by your society. Things such as taking estrogen, growing breasts and having an otherwise female appearance are basal to the female side of the binary. Now, I bet you also have long hair, maybe wear makeup, and various other things that are all nothing more than gender roles assigned by society to that gender binary. I bet even the name that you've chosen is following that gender role.

You may not like gender roles or your miseducated idea of what gender binaries are, but you sure do follow them pretty well.

The "Third Gender" mentioned above may seem cool. But when our gender roles are based on a nature driven gender binary, there really isn't much of a place for that third gender. So the best we have is to grit our teeth and conform to the gender binaries of our society and work to change what we dislike.

[Felix]

Even though it's slightly tinged with hostility, I think this is very cool and well thought out. I'm glad you took the time to type it up.

No disrespect to non-binary people. I'm not a prescriptivist.

[azSam]

I should clarify some. I personally don't believe in the need for sociological gender roles. I believe that they are unnecessary. What I mean to say is that it is necessary to conform to these gender roles if you want to blend with your society to help you remain safe and stable.

I applaud the person who is brave enough to knowingly and willingly disregard these outright, while being knowledgeable of the (frankly) huge risks involved.

[Gretchen]

One of the few things that i will conform to is a gender roll, and correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that the intersexed are the third gender. I've also heard that some intersex people bounce back and forth between the two main genders, but not all of them. I would imagine that most intersex people go to one side or the other, but I don't know I'm just a simple transsexual with zebra's and moonbeams dancing in my head, oh yea and fairy tales too.

[Stephe]

Men were in charge because men were physically stronger due to testosterone acting as a strong steroid. Only recently in our modern society have women started to gain power and rights.

If people are required to follow the status quo, how did women gain any power and rights? By following the set gender rules? 

I've lived dead square in the middle and didn't feel it was an unsafe place to be. I did end up closer to the female pole but still am not following all the rules. We need to push these rules if we ever expect any change. Sure adhering to the binary gender code is safe, unless you get caught. Then it would have been much safer to have been up front.

[azSam]

Be upfront about what exactly? Now, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but to me it sounds like you're saying that we are somehow deceiving the population. I agree that pushing the envelope is what needs to be done, but that is a very specific phrase. You can push the envelope (gender roles) while still being in it. You can fight to have less gender roles or none at all while still largely following them.

Long hair, dresses, female clothes, makeup; all of these are standard to the female side of the gender binary.

But completely ignoring these gender roles would have you scowled at by society. Look at a man with a giant green mohawk, he wears all leather with spikes and has piercings, he will be viewed negatively by society. Our archaic and inadequate societal norms do not allow for people to stray far from the mean.

I started typing some very abstract things, but I had to stop and erase it all because it was outside the scope of this discussion.

[BlueSloth]

Threads seem to go stale fast here.  But I remember looking for a policy on reviving old threads one time and not finding anything, and it seems a bit disorganized and overly redundant to start a new thread about something that's already been talked about, so...

correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that the intersexed are the third gender.

Intersex is a sex.  The way I see it, the closest thing I can think of to a corresponding gender is androgyne, although the definition of androgyne can be sort of fuzzy depending on who you ask, and the definition of "third gender" is very fuzzy.  (Note that I only learned about this terminology this year; I'm hardly an experienced expert)

I enjoy a healthy, mutual, and respectful debate of each other's views on things; and I am interested in hearing all of your views on this subject.

Ok..

I had brought up the topic of passing. Another person said that passing is silly and that gender binaries are "passé" and that she passes as a human and that is all she needs. Well this got me to thinking. So I typed up this.... long winded reply.



The gender binary is believed to be a construct of our modern society. But the fact is it's been around for as long as there has been breathing creatures on this planet. Virtually all forms of sentient life live under this gender binary. Why? Because there are females and there are males. This is a physiological fact that holds true in millions of forms of life.

I'm not talking about Gender Roles, because you and I both know that a lot of traditional gender roles are silly. No, what I'm talking about is our very natural, evolutionarily driven gender binary. Perhaps mentally there is a "third gender" – but as far as nature cares, that third gender might as well never exist. Men use sperm to fertilize a female egg. We procreate, we survive, and we thrive. This "third gender" cannot survive without the natural gender binary of nature.

I'm a pansexual androgyne (and a few other things I won't mention).  I appear to be unjustifiable in terms of evolutionary psychology and sexual reproduction....  yet here I am.  I don't get it either.

I don't think of myself as a useless fluke or a mistake, because nature is complex enough that pretty much anything could have a reason for existing that we'd never think of.  Also, you can imagine what it'd do to my self esteem, and things are hard enough for me already.

I think anybody who's anything other than straight and cisgendered could say the same thing.

Men were in charge because men were physically stronger due to testosterone acting as a strong steroid.

I'm no historian, but I'm pretty sure in a lot of cases they weren't in charge.

Why? Disregarding these gender roles in the very best of circumstances, you'll be viewed awkwardly; people may avoid you and without a doubt ridicule you behind your back. Even in the "AMAZING USA" you can be lawfully terminated from your job just for being Trans in a staggering number of states. In other societies you can be jailed and even executed.

While some of the gender roles that we face are silly and completely arbitrary, it's better to follow them and attempt to change them rather than completely disregard them. You'll live more peacefully and the people near you won't be uncomfortable. You can live a safer and more stable life.

If I make somebody uncomfortable, I have no sympathy for them.  It's not my fault if somebody's closed minded and intolerant.

I'm well aware that the world is full of violent idiots, and spent most of my life so far terrified of who I am and what people would think of they got a glimpse of the real me.  I don't think passing is silly and I want to do it, but I'd be passing as something people don't expect to see.

I agree with you and don't think gender binaries are passé, it's just that I'm not one of them.

[Julie Wilson]

I think that there can sort of be a third gender but in order for it to work the people you interact with have to really know you well.  I mean it doesn't seem to translate across to strangers in a meaningful way.  Then again I am out of my specialty area, discussing something I am unfamiliar with.  But as someone who might interact with a 3rd gender type I would have to know and understand that person in order to begin to relate to them as they might desire or prefer.

My experience of sex is you are your sex, except when you aren't... but even then you are, which is why you must change your sex (M2F &F2Ms), otherwise you would have no reason to change it.  You change your sex because it is part of who and what you are, even when it is wrong.

Being the wrong sex has consequences because it affects who you are and prevents you from being who you really are.  We change sex to be who we are (M2Fs and F2Ms).

Gender is a word that doesn't mean a whole lot to me.  Gender is a way for a male to say that he is really a she, but she has yet to become a she so gender is a way to explain that situation (maybe).  And transition can be a long arduous process, sometimes taking years to accomplish so gender is a word to communicate one's needs during that time (perhaps)? 

But sex is where it is at for myself.  Whether it is hormones (endocrinology) which is 'sex' or having the correct secondary sexual characteristics (more sex, not so much "gender")  Sex is concrete stuff.  And out of concrete stuff comes less concrete stuff like mannerisms, appetites, desires, personality and a wealth of other stuff that sometimes get's called "Gender".

But gender by it self without anything really concrete tends to be a way to communicate needs.  And sometimes we try to talk ourselves out of our needs.  There is a word for it like cognitive dissonance I think?  You talk about something like it is unimportant and try to take meaning away from it because not being able to have it is so painful that you try to take away some of the pain by attempting to take away importance from it or talk it down a little.  Maybe refer to it as "Gender" to make it seem a little less concrete, a little less important.  You say, "I really didn't want that promotion anyway."  "I am glad he turned me down because I never really wanted to go to the prom with him anyway."  or "Pfffft!"  "Whatever, being male or female is just a social construct anyway..."  "It's nothing more than the artificial gender binary and it's soooo stupid!"

Because maybe a person doesn't believe that he or she will ever really be able to transition.  It seems like so much work, it can seem so scary and expensive and it is easier to talk about ideas or rebel against the gender binary.

And transition may seem hard but it is done in little steps.  And a person doesn't change overnight but transition can completely change a person.  And as people we like to think we know everything about reality not realizing that reality changes when a person transitions.  And when reality doesn't change during transition... that seems like a transition I wouldn't want to have.

I know I said something in this post.  Kudos if you can figure out what it was.

[Edge]

While I agree with most of what you say, there are a couple things that I would hesitate to agree with. For one, I'm not familiar with how dangerous it is to disregard gender roles in modern times, but I've never had much trouble and the only people who brought it up are weaker than me. Also, my ex-boyfriend had hair down to his butt and he's definitely a guy. Lots of goth guys wear makeup.  Second, as one of the people who switches between male and female genders, I feel I should speak up. I don't know why it happens and I suppose, unless I find some way of dissecting my brain without damaging myself, I can't give empirical evidence that how I feel is real. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible for me to feel the way I do and, until you can provide empirical evidence that it's impossible, I would rather people didn't automatically assume that I don't exist. I know that "I exist" is not a good argument, but it is currently the only one I have. I do need to research it further.
For the record, I don't think it's cool. It freaked me out and caused a lot of self hatred. It still does whenever someone equates it with gender roles because I wonder if I'm really that stupid. It no longer freaks me out and I have come to accept and maybe even like it, but the fact still remains that I didn't choose this.

[Sephirah]

This line of thinking has never sat quite right with me, although I can see where it comes from. The reason it doesn't sit right is largely because of this:

I'm not talking about Gender Roles, because you and I both know that a lot of traditional gender roles are silly. No, what I'm talking about is our very natural, evolutionarily driven gender binary. Perhaps mentally there is a "third gender" – but as far as nature cares, that third gender might as well never exist. Men use sperm to fertilize a female egg. We procreate, we survive, and we thrive. This "third gender" cannot survive without the natural gender binary of nature.

The sociological aspect of this gender binary makes perfect sense. The reason why women are women and men are men is simple to understand, that is how our evolutionary drive to procreate works. It is much simpler to have distinct, identifiable differences between the two sexes for easier procreation. You can find this everywhere in nature, look up sexual dimorphism. Our gender roles are largely evolutionarily driven.

It feels to me like using evolution, nature, physiology and biology to justify a belief in a gender binary, and on the other hand believing that it's possible for an individual to not fit the sex they were assigned at birth... well, it's like trying to have your cake and eat it.

The reason is because when using that line of thought, on the one hand you accept self-determination enough to for a person to be able to know they aren't their birth sex, but then kinda dismiss self-determination by saying that binary genders are there solely for an evolutionary and biological purpose. So if you're a man, you make sperm, and if you're a woman, you make eggs, and the two come together to continue the species. And that's that.

Which in turn begs the question: if your birth sex is perfectly capable of contributing to this biological and evolutionary driven procreation, and possesses all the attributes necessary for existence within nature... where does the mental acceptance that you aren't that sex come from? Because, unless I'm missing something, if it were only about biology and procreation as a need to continue the species... such feelings of disparity wouldn't exist naturally. And it could even be argued that in evolutionary terms it's detrimental since , if the need is so strong that you physically and medically change your sex, you lose that ability to procreate.

(Although that does also lead to an interesting offshoot of humans having evolved to the point where we're able to do such things, and with the state of human knowlege of the world around us being what it is, there's no longer the biological need in many areas of the world to pump out twenty kids in the hope that one or two don't die before they reach adolescence. Evolution is a strange mistress.)

Anyway, as far as I can see, this leaves only two possible conclusions:

a) Either the feeling that one isn't their birth sex is an illusion and we're all just deluding ourselves, or in the words of the Bloodhound Gang: "You and me, baby, ain't nothin' but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"

b) That humans are more than that, and do possess the self-determination and self-awareness to know that they don't fit their assigned birth sex. If that's the case, then it stands to reason that there are going to humans who have that same self-awareness to know they don't fit the other sex, either... and the whole idea of biology and procreation insisting that there can only be a binary model is a largely redundant argument in terms of the human species.

I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Who knows, maybe mentally we already have evolved to the point where a purely evolutionary, rigid binary model ceases to be useful, and we're just waiting for biology and anatomy to catch up.

[BlueSloth]

Because maybe a person doesn't believe that he or she will ever really be able to transition.  It seems like so much work, it can seem so scary and expensive and it is easier to talk about ideas or rebel against the gender binary.

Are you transitioning from male to female?  Is there an awkward point in the transition where you can't pass as female yet, but you've already stopped looking like a normal male, and people don't quite know what to do with you?  How easy is it to be like that?

Getting rid of my gender dysphoria means looking androgynous like that for the rest of my life.