Voice Training, Voice Surgery or Both? Also Laser to add semi tones?

[Stephanie_b]

On a side note, what do you all think of my impressions? 

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OMG!! I don't think I've ever had such a good laugh!  I listened to the first link only of your voice impressions and I'm like, wow.  They are awesome!  As far as I could tell they were spot on and there's no way in a million years that I could even do one of them.

You have talent and should be able to go far with this.  Also, America's Got Talent comes to mind, If you were to go there you would get my vote ( if I was American that is).

Good stuff!   

[Seyranna]

I'm gonna say something shocking that you need to hear.

You have a male voice box. You will never sing like Maria Callas. Singing in full modal voice as a trans woman and sound cis can be done even with a decent range too but what you can sing adequately will be limited not to mention the quality/richness/power will always be questionable/ sub par. You can seek formal training as a counter-tenor but then I hope you like singing opera because that's pretty much all you'll be able to sing. You won't sound half as good as a bad cis woman too.

Your impersonation skills will not carry over to the female side for the most part... Well it will but only a fraction of it. I used to be very skilled at making voices, FX sounds and impersonations of all kind with my male voice too, hundreds of voices and very little carried over.

Now a little positive: sustaining your female conversational voice will require no conscious effort. Even when you wake up or in most situations that you will have to face daily. If you're skilled and have a good musical ear you will get it down easily. The real skill is not to learn how to talk like A girl that part is easy, the real skill is to learn how to unlock your own female voice as it would have been had you been cis so it matches your body perfectly. The second invaluable skill is to learn how to re-educate your brain so it learns how to draw full power from that voice and remain in female resonance. Now you need to know that the quality of the sounds you produce will increase exponentially over time. So what sounds strained and "fake" now will not remain like this if you condition your higher register daily. Provided you got teh skillz you will be able to yell across the street and even roar too.

Be weary: You cannot "stretch" both ways. Meaning that the more quality you gain on one end of the register you lose it on the other. For a while I pushed my voice in both directions but since I live full time as a woman my male voice is not what it used to be and I lost a few lower notes. So technically it's very counterproductive to fall back on your male voice and especially sing. At some point my throat really itches when I do certain male register sounds or voices I could do effortlessly before.

You will be able to sneeze and sound 100% like a woman sneezing and you will be able to clear your throat but only partially. You cannot fully clear your throat when you have a really bad itch and still sound female it's simply not doable. However, somebody that is oblivious to the fact that you're trans might not perceive it as such though. Depending on your self-control bursts of laughter could be an issue too.

So I hope you found this informative and not too discouraging

EDIT: Oh and BTW... Forget voice surgery. Period.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Actually I don't really laugh like a male, i don't have a jolly santa belly laugh or anything like that. I disagree with you that I won't be able to do my voice impressions though or be able to carry it over, I can learn to imitate a new voice within 2 months. I haven't imitated many female voices though because that part is something I need training on.Also I have been hiding the idea of doing female voices to my family or in public for ever because of fear and spiritual concerns, but My voice impressions are very natural to me and some I have done since I was 16, it feels like a 2nd skin as it were.

My voice is not a typical male sounding voice anyways, I have always spoken soft and gentle unless I am trying to be over the top and sound like a DJ, which i can actually and do it quite well. My big problem is when I get tired or nervous or irritated i tend to not speak clearly, I still have faith it can all work out.

[apple pie]

Hello ShawnTOShawnna,

In terms of pitch, I can hear that you are able to reach fairly high already. The beginning of your second video reached an E♭5, which is over 600 Hz. Plus, it sounds like you can go even higher! Even 600 Hz is waaay more than enough for everyday talking.

But high pitches don't make you sound female automatically; you can go up to 800 Hz and still sound 100% like a guy. What others say about resonance is very true: it is what really makes a voice sound female. Pitch, in comparison, matters a lot less. That goes with singing as well: definitely possible to sound like a woman while singing as you have found, but another normal guy singing that song would not sound female, even with the same high pitches!

By the way, there used to be someone called Zoe Natasha here, a moderator who was very good with producing a wide range of different voices. . I find her range of voices amazing, and it might inspire you

[Seyranna]

I think you don't understand what I said about voices so I'll clarify. Everything you can do now you will still be able to do what I mean is that you will not be able/nor want to transpose them all to a female sounding voice... Like in the clip of Zoe above me she didn't feminize her radio announcer or the evil voice and many people can pull Barney easily so there's nothing impressive in that video and she imitated him flawlessly instead of doing like a woman imitating Barney. That's what I meant by carrying your voices over to the female side but problem is you wouldn't do certain female voices/impersonations for the same reason you would a man's so for instance if you imitate a radio announcer like Zoe but feminize the voice it's just not as funny. Feminize the evil laughter for fun... See how you sound terribly nonthreatening.

[Shawn Sunshine]

wow really apple pie? Um wow ok so whats the average normal speaking Hertz for a Female and whats the normal range for a male? Well that furby voice that I do i can do for quite a while until my voice gets tired, course i cant do it all day long. And I am not even doing that in falsetto eithier, I don' know that I can get much higher than that.


I think I see what your saying Seyranna, Like for instance trying to sound like a Female Richard Nixon just would not work because it would sound nothing like him and would not translate over. I have heard some pretty evil sounding laughter from females though. Since I have never trained or taught by my parents to speak feminine, I will have to get a voice coach.

In regards to not being able to sing like a female though I still direct you to this video



Now it seems to me he just has a strong falsetto voice, but I am not quite sure, there are moments it sounds falsetto and moments it sounds like its his head voice.


wow I just watched the video from zoe and I was impressed! It was a hoot hearing those voices come out. I did notice it took a little more time to work into the voices, but still they sounded authentic and worked.

[JJ]

I've seen some amazing videos on YouTube with people whose natural voice was very deep managing to create a very natural sounding female voice after some training. I've also seen some trans women with honestly terrible voices and I wonder if they actually record themselves and listen to it. I'm working on my voice and I can manage a fairly okay female voice at the moment but it's not perfect. I try it out on the phone by calling a big store and making an enquiry or something similar. I've always been "maam'd" which is encouraging.

The big thing to get right is the resonance. Once you've cracked that you're fine. Without the correct resonance you'll sound like a caricature of a female voice, and not an actual one. I find a good way to try to improve my resonance is to open up my nasal cavity and get the sound to resonate through it as well as my mouth, but without making an overtly nasal voice. When I feel like my face is resonating when I speak my voice is at its best. Find a pitch that you're comfortable with - i.e. one that's not straining your throat - and use it as a baseline to work upwards from, whilst continuously working on your resonance.

Another thing I found helped me was when I noticed how little I moved my lips - especially my top lip - when I spoke in my male voice. This dulls down my voice and gives me a slight mumble. When I made a conscious effort to move my lips more and to reveal more of my top teeth when I spoke (without looking like a mad dog) it not only gave my face a more friendly disposition when I spoke but it allowed me to easily attain that extra clarity you want for your female voice.

The only thing is if you don't have surgery you run the risk of talking in your male voice in your sleep, which could give a new partner a shock if you're living in steath 

[auburnAubrey]

I'm gonna say something shocking that you need to hear.

You have a male voice box. You will never sing like Maria Callas. Singing in full modal voice as a trans woman and sound cis can be done even with a decent range too but what you can sing adequately will be limited not to mention the quality/richness/power will always be questionable/ sub par. You can seek formal training as a counter-tenor but then I hope you like singing opera because that's pretty much all you'll be able to sing. You won't sound half as good as a bad cis woman too.


Be weary: You cannot "stretch" both ways. Meaning that the more quality you gain on one end of the register you lose it on the other. For a while I pushed my voice in both directions but since I live full time as a woman my male voice is not what it used to be and I lost a few lower notes. So technically it's very counterproductive to fall back on your male voice and especially sing. At some point my throat really itches when I do certain male register sounds or voices I could do effortlessly before.

You will be able to sneeze and sound 100% like a woman sneezing and you will be able to clear your throat but only partially. You cannot fully clear your throat when you have a really bad itch and still sound female it's simply not doable. However, somebody that is oblivious to the fact that you're trans might not perceive it as such though. Depending on your self-control bursts of laughter could be an issue too.

So I hope you found this informative and not too discouraging

EDIT: Oh and BTW... Forget voice surgery. Period.

I'm going to disagree with you on quite a few points here.  Everyone has a range, and everyones range can be expanded with training.  Opera singers do not just suddenly pound out at a coloratura soprano... they train, expand, train, expand.  Now, yes, at some point, everyone will reach their maximum ranges, and that is unique to each person.  I have seen MANY trans women with low voices sing full out female, and you could never, ever tell they weren't a cis girl.  I've seen and talked to voice therapists who have showed their work, with people flawlessly singing in a female range, speaking like a cis girl, and going back to their male voice flawlessly.   And also, since I do voice over work in male voice, and am working with a voice therapist (Who specializes in TG women), even she said that I will be able to go back and forth to do voice over work in either gender at will.

So, if you try these things by yourself, you will get so far.  If you train with a professional, you will get farther.  This goes for anything.  Golf lesson, learning a new trade... when you train with someone who knows what they are doing, you can get farther than doing it by yourself.  Your limits are not as solid as you had in your post.  I've seen it, I've heard it, and I am actually doing it myself.  While your experience has been limiting, I assure you, that is not the way for everyone.  You can not believe what you can accomplish with voice when you get with the right professional.  (A final example is people who work out by themselves trying to get in shape... then suddenly work with a trainer and get leaner, stronger, and more cut than they ever did by themselves.  they thought they were pushing to their limit by themselves, and then suddenly, with proper instruction, go farther than they ever imagined.)

[Seyranna]

People keep linking Nick Pitera as if they thought everybody could achieve that. Well, newsflash: Like some known sopranists (e.g Radu Marian) these guys have physiological anomalies that enable them to pull that off. You and I and 97% of the MAAB population cannot achieve that even through extensive training sorry. I'm not saying you cannot reach a certain level of quality but just don't delude yourself into thinking that every trans woman can sound like that.  You can achieve a conversational voice that sounds 100% cis but singing like a woman (and sound well) is only for a fraction of the MAAB population. One could argue that even Nick doesn't "sound good", he does sing well and yeah he does sound like a woman but both his male voice and female voice are not exactly high quality voices.

No man alive sounds more like a woman than this guy:



and even then roughly around 2:32 you can clearly tell that it's a sopranist and not a bio female... It's still my favorite rendition of the Ave Maria though.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Auburn Aubrey, wow that's encouraging to hear that it can be done and that many have done it. I pray that I can fall into that category with some help from a pro.


Radu Marian ...wow truly amazing!

[Sarah Louise]

Everyone, please remember to stick to the topic and refrain from personal insults.  Everyone's response deserves equal respect.

[auburnAubrey]

Auburn Aubrey, wow that's encouraging to hear that it can be done and that many have done it. I pray that I can fall into that category with some help from a pro.


Radu Marian ...wow truly amazing!

That said.... it takes training, but most of all, a TON of practice!  the best golfer in the world still hits thousands of balls a week for practice.  If you don't practice what you train on, then you won't see the results you are looking for.

[Kitty_Babe]

I'm gonna say something shocking that you need to hear.

You have a male voice box. You will never sing like Maria Callas. Singing in full modal voice as a trans woman and sound cis can be done even with a decent range too but what you can sing adequately will be limited not to mention the quality/richness/power will always be questionable/ sub par. You can seek formal training as a counter-tenor but then I hope you like singing opera because that's pretty much all you'll be able to sing. You won't sound half as good as a bad cis woman too.

Your impersonation skills will not carry over to the female side for the most part... Well it will but only a fraction of it. I used to be very skilled at making voices, FX sounds and impersonations of all kind with my male voice too, hundreds of voices and very little carried over.

Now a little positive: sustaining your female conversational voice will require no conscious effort. Even when you wake up or in most situations that you will have to face daily. If you're skilled and have a good musical ear you will get it down easily. The real skill is not to learn how to talk like A girl that part is easy, the real skill is to learn how to unlock your own female voice as it would have been had you been cis so it matches your body perfectly. The second invaluable skill is to learn how to re-educate your brain so it learns how to draw full power from that voice and remain in female resonance. Now you need to know that the quality of the sounds you produce will increase exponentially over time. So what sounds strained and "fake" now will not remain like this if you condition your higher register daily. Provided you got teh skillz you will be able to yell across the street and even roar too.

Be weary: You cannot "stretch" both ways. Meaning that the more quality you gain on one end of the register you lose it on the other. For a while I pushed my voice in both directions but since I live full time as a woman my male voice is not what it used to be and I lost a few lower notes. So technically it's very counterproductive to fall back on your male voice and especially sing. At some point my throat really itches when I do certain male register sounds or voices I could do effortlessly before.

You will be able to sneeze and sound 100% like a woman sneezing and you will be able to clear your throat but only partially. You cannot fully clear your throat when you have a really bad itch and still sound female it's simply not doable. However, somebody that is oblivious to the fact that you're trans might not perceive it as such though. Depending on your self-control bursts of laughter could be an issue too.

So I hope you found this informative and not too discouraging

EDIT: Oh and BTW... Forget voice surgery. Period.

Yeah, actually what you said makes a lot of sense. also as people are talking about Voice surgery,  some thing I have always not wanted to take an option for, just don't even consider it. Way too much of a risk to seriously think about !

[Annah]

I'm gonna say something shocking that you need to hear.

You have a male voice box. You will never sing like Maria Callas. Singing in full modal voice as a trans woman and sound cis can be done even with a decent range too but what you can sing adequately will be limited not to mention the quality/richness/power will always be questionable/ sub par. You can seek formal training as a counter-tenor but then I hope you like singing opera because that's pretty much all you'll be able to sing. You won't sound half as good as a bad cis woman too.

I have to disagree 100% about this.

Before I started any voice training I had a deep voice with a southern accent (born and raised in Virginia). I sang bass in high school choir and college choir as well as my churches. My voice was not high enough to sing tenor.

After over one year of intense vocal training, my singing range was easily soprano. And it isn't the corny soprano where you can tell people are squeaking their voices to get to that range. My range was very natural and I received compliments with it...being invited to sing in the choir coronation service for our President and other Seminary chapel events.

My voice training also diminished a great deal of my southern accent too (this isn't a good or bad thing...but to show you that you can do incredible changes to your voice if you train hard enough).

You will be able to sneeze and sound 100% like a woman sneezing and you will be able to clear your throat but only partially. You cannot fully clear your throat when you have a really bad itch and still sound female it's simply not doable. However, somebody that is oblivious to the fact that you're trans might not perceive it as such though. Depending on your self-control bursts of laughter could be an issue too.

See, I don't see this as accurate either. I can clear my throat just fine without getting suspicious looks from others. Just like voice, sneezing, clearing your throat, and coughing can be changed.

I've been talking in my feminine voice for so long now, everything is natural about it. I don't even think about it anymore and it's just as hard to talk in my original voice as it was in the beginning when i first started to talk in my feminine one.

[Shawn Sunshine]

Well to be honest even in natural cis women there is such a varying degree of voice and a way of carrying yourself it doesn't much matter, I think it is more about personality than anything else.

[aleon515]

Well to be honest even in natural cis women there is such a varying degree of voice and a way of carrying yourself it doesn't much matter, I think it is more about personality than anything else.

I'm not exactly cis, but I doubt my androgyne status would change anything-- but this is true. I can sing into the tenor range (not the lower notes, of course). But no way do I usually pass off as male. I think my voice could go into, say, a gentle male voice, if I lowered the volume. There's all sorts of things like resonance, pitch, timbre, etc. There is probably personality involved.

--Jay Jay