Buddhist carnivore, sigh.

[Padma]

Well, after 30 years (more or less) of being vegetarian, hormones have turned me first into a fish-eater, and now over the last week I've been unable to go a day without eating mammals. It's very, very weird to go from feeling nauseous at the thought of having animal fat in my mouth to waking up in the morning and knowing I won't be able to stop myself from eating sausages today.

I'm having to treat this as a long pregnancy, and hope that the weird and completely irresistible cravings will ease off after SRS and my subsequent reduced oestrogen intake.

My fellow Buddhists are being to some extent tightarsed about all this, I have to put up with a lot of well-meaning "advice" along the lines of "...but have you tried supplements/resisting it/meditating/etc etc..." which is deeply patronising - I mean, why on earth assume I haven't tried everything first? Grmmbl. Ahem. I notice that anyone I know who's ever been pregnant can accept very easily what I'm going through, and just say "it happens..." .

I'm not happy to be complicit in the suffering of animals - and the suffering of people who have to slaughter them for a living. But it really doesn't feel like a choice at the moment. When it becomes a choice again, I'll choose to be a vegetarian again. Meanwhile - oh god, garlic salami!!!

[Eve of chaos]

I am vegan and plan to stay vegan even if i get cravings. I have only been on HRT a few months so I cant say too much yet. but I'm determined to keep it this way.

[Cindy]

Oh dear Sister,

This isn't breaking vows this is a medical condition were you body is rebuilding to cope with changes. As you said just like pregnancy. As you know I have no religion, and I have no problems with those who do.

I have had problems with some food over my life. Ok laugh. I'm allergic to onions, I slowly adapted to a small amount of very cooked onion in Italian based foods, recipes. I had my first personally made cheese and raw onion sandwich today.  The last one was 40 yrs ago in a pub in Liverpool and I threw up.

So take heart, if HRT cam make me eat an onion, or even smell one without feeling nausea, we have no choice.

Mmm liver and onions could be good for dinner (NO NO I JOKE)

Hugs
Cindy

[Marion]

I'm really sorry you're getting flak from your community for a medical condition. That's just not kind. Shame on them.

Anyway, if you're new to eating meat lately and like salami, I'd recommend getting some fancy chicken sausages at your local grocery store, if they have them. Chicken takes less energy to raise than beef or pork, I believe--at a lower trophic level--and I find these sausages easy to digest (unless, of course, you need, as you say, mammals.) I still have a gut unused to red meat & pork as I was raised without it and sometimes I get gas/indigestion from those. These would be chicken sausages with e.g. mango and red pepper in them, etc.

If you can get it, also, I recommend ground bison as a beef substitute. A lot of it is more ethically raised and the meat is, though leaner, more flavorful than beef in my opinion, and because leaner, less hard on one's innards.

Just my two cents on the topic of meat. I could prattle on about food for hours.

[Padma]

I've never taken any vows, I've never been vegetarian because I was a Buddhist - more a case of being Buddhist because it was in accord with my existing ethics.

I've wanted to be vegetarian since I was 8, for ethical reasons, but didn't get to do that until I was 18. I can understand my fellow Buddhists' skepticism about my efforts to avoid eating animals, if they've never personally experienced a craving so strong that they can't think about anything else for days on end. It's hard to empathise; I've never, ever experienced a desire as strong as this in my whole life. It's a shock, and I understand much better now what drug addicts are dealing with. As for 'medical condition', most people consider my transition to be elective, so I've had people say to me "If HRT is doing that to you, stop taking it." Again, if you haven't experienced gender dysphoria, you can't imagine it. It's something else I fended off for years, to the detriment of my health.

At the moment, I just have to eat what my body demands at the time, otherwise I don't eat much at all, which would be no good. I'm hoping this will fade back the way the fish did, to the point where I just want it every few days. At the moment, it's almost every meal. I'm making a really good soup just now (sweet potato, spinach, lentil) and I know that when I eat it, I'm mostly going to want to add salami. So it is.

[Cindy]

I'm so sorry Sis,

I did in no way mean to be insulting or disparaging

I was trying in my Aussie humour way to be supportive. As you also know from one Shelia to another, I will walk to the ends of eternity to help and comfort you.

If I upset you please try to  forgive, because I never ever meant that.

Hugs and Love

Cindy

[Padma]

Nonono, no offence taken at all, I was just setting the record straight (well, that and being prideful of course... ).

People often think Buddhists "have to do" stuff, but the whole point is it's all about becoming someone who's able to make choices all the time, instead of being driven around by desire and aversion like a remote control car. Right now, my body has the handset when it comes to food.

[Cindy]

 

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

Dearest Padma,

Humans are obligatory omnivores.  Which means we eat veggies and meat. 

I have a theory.  Look at nature.  Carnivore has the eyes in the front of the head, where are herbivores have them on the side of the head.

Herbivore:


Carnivore:


Notice where the eyes are.

That said, we humans can make a choice as to what we want to eat.  I have done the vegetarian route. I have also been a carnivore.  If you do not wish to eat meat, then don't. 

But being in veterinary medicine, I know how animals, that we use for food, are treated.  Granted some of them are not the nice places.  But they are fed, watered, housed and have access to veterinary care.

To not eat meat because it is a personal statement against the ethical treatment of animals, is a good personal reason not to.  But as for me, Give a steak or give me death. 

I really thing that when we have cravings, it is because we are lacking something in the craved food.  Which reminds me ...
Where did I put the vanilla ice creme, hot fudge and the dill pickles?

Having a little light fun with the thread.  No harm, no foul.

Love Ya, Sis.

[Asfsd4214]

Well, after 30 years (more or less) of being vegetarian, hormones have turned me first into a fish-eater, and now over the last week I've been unable to go a day without eating mammals. It's very, very weird to go from feeling nauseous at the thought of having animal fat in my mouth to waking up in the morning and knowing I won't be able to stop myself from eating sausages today.

I'm having to treat this as a long pregnancy, and hope that the weird and completely irresistible cravings will ease off after SRS and my subsequent reduced oestrogen intake.

My fellow Buddhists are being to some extent tightarsed about all this, I have to put up with a lot of well-meaning "advice" along the lines of "...but have you tried supplements/resisting it/meditating/etc etc..." which is deeply patronising - I mean, why on earth assume I haven't tried everything first? Grmmbl. Ahem. I notice that anyone I know who's ever been pregnant can accept very easily what I'm going through, and just say "it happens..." .

I'm not happy to be complicit in the suffering of animals - and the suffering of people who have to slaughter them for a living. But it really doesn't feel like a choice at the moment. When it becomes a choice again, I'll choose to be a vegetarian again. Meanwhile - oh god, garlic salami!!!

I respect a lot of Buddhist beliefs, but the fact of the matter is, those animals will continue to suffer either way. Yes you can say you're being complicit, that you should set an example. But to be pragmatic, I would ask, is there any practical desirable outcome of you personally eating meat or not? Outside of your own personal ethics in your own life?

Fact is animals suffer, people suffer, its been the way of things since the dawn of time, and probably will continue until the end of time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to better ourselves and the world around us. But we all have limits. One of those limits is that as far as nature and science is concerned, we're omnivores. It's very difficult for us to survive healthily as herbivores.

Take solace in the fact that suffering is normal, and suffering is temporary, death is inevitable.

Something I tell people, choice is a funny thing. We think we're in control, we decide what we do. And to a degree that's true. But to a very strong degree, we are animals. Omnivorous animals, eat other animals. It's in our nature. Vice is in our nature. Sin is in our nature (if you'll excuse the wording). We can try to fight it, but I can't help but ask myself, what is it really a fight to achieve? The end of suffering, pain, the beginning of utopia? Or just a reduction of the ills of the world. Is your ill making any real difference?


Live life as best you can, for you can do no better. See if you can find a place for eating meat in your personal ethics. If you can not, then I'm sorry for your struggle. Unfortunately as I said, suffering is the way of things.

[Sephirah]

Not really relevant to the thread, but this subject reminded me of a quote I really like:

"I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants." ~ A. Whitney Brown

[Shang]

If you're having issues with the meat because of how the animal is raised, why not try some local raised animals where you can go and see how the animal is raised?  A lot of local farms are usually happy to oblige a tour and many take good care of their animals.  The meat may be a bit more expensive, but it's usually worth it.  You'll know exactly what is going into the animal, how the animal lives, and possibly how it is killed (if you were so inclined to ask).  It might help with your peace of mind.

[Jeneva]

Would it help to buy only humanely treated meats?  Perhaps organic?

We raise chickens to slaughter.  I just hatched another set last month.  However those chickens would not have even lived if I had not hatched them because those animals will not brood their eggs.  Even if they had existence somehow (perhaps one got lucky because it was laid by a broody hen (very rare)), it would be much harsher than the environment I give them.  Here they have free access to food AND fresh pasture with plenty of bugs.  Here they have constant access to water.  Here they are protected from predators by both us and the geese.  They will only know the warmth of spring, summer, and early fall.  Then I will place them into cones upside down and after apologizing and thanking the bird I will slit its throat.  Being upside down helps calm the bird and when I am skillful enough to use the razor well, they suffer very little.  It is a single spike of pain and then they bleed out calmly.  Now I will admit that my skill is not good enough and sometimes I must make multiple cuts and the bird does panic, but my intent is for as peaceful a death as possible while still retaining the safety of the meat.  Someone who did this for a living would be able to use the blade correctly almost all of the time.  Is this not a lesser evil?  The bird's life would have never started if someone hadn't incubated it and a "good" farm will treat the birds as royalty until they end in as painless a matter as possible.

[Amazon D]

If you're having issues with the meat because of how the animal is raised, why not try some local raised animals where you can go and see how the animal is raised?  A lot of local farms are usually happy to oblige a tour and many take good care of their animals.  The meat may be a bit more expensive, but it's usually worth it.  You'll know exactly what is going into the animal, how the animal lives, and possibly how it is killed (if you were so inclined to ask).  It might help with your peace of mind.

Yea you could even ask the animals name and talk to it a while before they kill it just to make sure you get on a personal level with it. 

[Shang]

Yea you could even ask the animals name and talk to it a while before they kill it just to make sure you get on a personal level with it. 

Hahaha, I don't think that helps when it comes to eating meat.  I personally won't eat meat that I know the name of the critter it came from.  I also won't eat babies because it feels wrong to me.

[Jamie D]

I was not aware that vegetarianism was mandated within Buddhism.

[Padma]

I was not aware that vegetarianism was mandated within Buddhism.

Nothing is mandated in Buddhism. Most Buddhists are vegetarian as an expression of the ethical precept (Buddhist ethical precepts are not 'commandments', they're training principles, requiring conscious choice) of "not harming living beings". For me, that means trying to do as little harm as I can (and as much good as I can) - I don't expect to be able to do no harm.

Speaking as an omnivore who spent most of 30 years not eating animals, I don't agree that it's difficult to survive healthily as a herbivore.

And saying 'everything suffers' does not, as far as I'm concerned, free me from what I consider to be an ethical obligation not to add to that suffering.

[Carbon]

This is weird to me. As a vegetarian I always thought the "I couldn't give up meat" thing was an excuse. It's even an excuse I used, albeit when I was 12 years old and was more likely to thoughtlessly repeat the opinions of others, so I'm not inclined to take it very seriously. You seem pretty sincere and I believe you, though. Particularly since there would not be any benefit to starting a topic like this if it weren't true. 

I guess the world still ends up being more complicated than I'm first inclined to think.

[justmeinoz]

My experience with Buddhism was through the Pure Land and Zen schools, so I have a very different view to those who follow Southern Asian or Tibetan forms.  If you need to keep warm in an icy winter and there is no firewood, you throw the wooden statue of the Buddha on the fire without a thought.

I treat any animal flesh I consume with respect, and am aware it was a living creature. Also if someone believes in karma, maybe the animal deserved to be eaten?

Karen.

[Padma]

This is weird to me. As a vegetarian I always thought the "I couldn't give up meat" thing was an excuse. It's even an excuse I used, albeit when I was 12 years old and was more likely to thoughtlessly repeat the opinions of others, so I'm not inclined to take it very seriously. You seem pretty sincere and I believe you, though. Particularly since there would not be any benefit to starting a topic like this if it weren't true. 

I guess the world still ends up being more complicated than I'm first inclined to think.

It's weird to me too. I spent most of three decades not remotely attracted to eating animals. This time a month ago, the thought of putting mammal fat in my mouth made me nauseous. Right now, I feel like a meat junkie. I think it's starting to wear off, and I'll be happy if it does.