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Terminology

Started by M777a, May 22, 2012, 09:01:49 PM

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Brooke777

It took me a while but, I finally read all the posts for this thread. It seems that everyone that has responded has some well thought opinions.
O.P. - I like the intention behind this thread. I would like to offer what little help I could.
Rachl- a while back in this thread, you mentioned you are a philosopher. If you dont mind, what school of thought do you most follow? I ask because you have offered your professional assistance. So, in order to best describe what I think the language could be, I would like to address you using the school of thought you are most comfortable with. If you would prefer not to open that up, that is just fine.
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Randi

I don't fit anywhere in the sexual/gender binary.

My mother took DES while I was gestating.  I functioned fairly well as male between ages 15 and 50.
In my early 50's I became hypogonadic (low testosterone).

A decade later I'm definitely not male, but not exactly female either.

There is no "choice" involved here.  I'm not deciding to isolate myself.

I am neither male nor female and that is a biological fact, not something in my imagination.  Before you ask, I did indeed take testosterone injections for years in an attempt to remain male.  It just didn't work.

So you think society frowns on my condition, do you?  I'm a respected member of my community and church. I am a military veteran with honors to my credit. Some consider me a leader and I'm on the board of several community organizations. I spent 32 years thriving in a highly technical job. I'm now retired with an income well above the national median.

There's nothing phony, deceptive or imaginary about me.  I'm no longer male, and not female either.  Please don't think you have the authority to place me in either category

Randi

Quote from: M777a on July 05, 2012, 11:47:26 PM
Has anyone else been told about the male /female binary or has there been other categories created? I would classify these other categories as feel good categories. The truth be told there is only the male/female binary and anything else must be forms of expression that should not confused with ones sex. This is in no way a put down to someone who wants to express themselves as feminine but they are not GSM. We must face the facts that women don't have penises. To take hormones and not seeking the surgical correction than you would still be male. Only the binary exists and to play both sides seems deceptive, which is one of the main reasons society frowns on our condition. Definitions become important to the world's understanding so complicating them with categories outside of the natural binary we become self isolating. This does not help us. What are your thoughts? Please take a moment to respond. Thank you.
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Constance

Quote from: M777a on July 05, 2012, 11:47:26 PM
Returning to the scene of the crime so to speak. Haven't posted in awhile. I hope people are reading this far and would take time to post. The last time I posted some 700 views had taken place, now there is over 800. I truly value inputs so please take a moment to respond its really appreciated. I would like to add food for thought now. Has anyone else been told about the male /female binary or has there been other categories created? I would classify these other categories as feel good categories. The truth be told there is only the male/female binary and anything else must be forms of expression that should not confused with ones sex. This is in no way a put down to someone who wants to express themselves as feminine but they are not GSM. We must face the facts that women don't have penises. To take hormones and not seeking the surgical correction than you would still be male. Only the binary exists and to play both sides seems deceptive, which is one of the main reasons society frowns on our condition. Definitions become important to the world's understanding so complicating them with categories outside of the natural binary we become self isolating. This does not help us. What are your thoughts? Please take a moment to respond. Thank you.

And yet, Bugis have 5 genders. Then, there's the Two-Spirit as well. It seems somewhat dismissive and culturally imperialistic to say these are merely "expressions."

Jamie D

Quote from: M777a on July 05, 2012, 11:47:26 PM
Returning to the scene of the crime so to speak. Haven't posted in awhile. I hope people are reading this far and would take time to post. The last time I posted some 700 views had taken place, now there is over 800. I truly value inputs so please take a moment to respond its really appreciated. I would like to add food for thought now. Has anyone else been told about the male /female binary or has there been other categories created? I would classify these other categories as feel good categories. The truth be told there is only the male/female binary and anything else must be forms of expression that should not confused with ones sex. This is in no way a put down to someone who wants to express themselves as feminine but they are not GSM. We must face the facts that women don't have penises. To take hormones and not seeking the surgical correction than you would still be male. Only the binary exists and to play both sides seems deceptive, which is one of the main reasons society frowns on our condition. Definitions become important to the world's understanding so complicating them with categories outside of the natural binary we become self isolating. This does not help us. What are your thoughts? Please take a moment to respond. Thank you.

Why are you ignoring the wide variety of intersex conditions?  Why do you discount that a gender identity issue might stem from a hormone incident in utero?  Have not third sexes, two spirits,"hermaphrodites," and similar gender and phenotype variants been recognized in cultures for all of recorded history?

It is true the dominant genotypes are XY and XX, but they are not the only types.

What makes a woman a woman; or a man a man?  Mind?  Body?  Is there no chance for a blending of both?
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peky

The new proposed name is "Gender Identity Incongruity (GII),"  because during early development and later on during pre- and peri-natal stage the  part of the brain that dictates your innate self-perception as male or female turn into a state that is in incongruity with your external genitalia.

Peky
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rachl

Quote from: Brooke777 on July 06, 2012, 11:29:00 AM
It took me a while but, I finally read all the posts for this thread. It seems that everyone that has responded has some well thought opinions.
O.P. - I like the intention behind this thread. I would like to offer what little help I could.
Rachl- a while back in this thread, you mentioned you are a philosopher. If you dont mind, what school of thought do you most follow? I ask because you have offered your professional assistance. So, in order to best describe what I think the language could be, I would like to address you using the school of thought you are most comfortable with. If you would prefer not to open that up, that is just fine.

I'm not sure what you're asking me. There aren't really "schools of thought" in philosophy except, MAYBE, the analytic/continental division in philosophy, which is itself a little artificial. I'm an analytic philosopher though: I work on epistemology, language, decision theory, and metaphysics. But I also work on gender identity and trans issues.
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Randi

How about?

Early Naturalists
Early Rationalists
Athenian sophists
Socrates and his followers
Platonic Academy
Aristotle and the Peripatetics
Sceptics
Cynics
Epicurans
Stoics
Neo-Platonists
Christians
Islamic Aristotelians
Empiricists
Rationalists
Idealists
Materialists
Phenomenologists
Existentialists
Logical Analysts
Pragmatists
Post-Modernists

You study philosophy without learning about the great thinkers who came before you?

Quote from: rachl on July 07, 2012, 01:00:06 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking me.
There aren't really "schools of thought" in philosophy except, MAYBE, the analytic/continental division in philosophy, which is itself a little artificial.
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rachl

Yeah, whatever. How many professional philosophers do you know? Go walk into any philosophy department, ask someone what school of thought they belong to, and take a picture of the "WTF?!" face for me.

Essentially no one self-identifies as any of those any more. And even at the height of any of those movements, it was only a vast minority of philosophers who ascribed to any of those movements. And if you knew anything about the state of the discipline, you'd know that no one really identifies with a "school of thought." At best we separate ourselves into disciplines like epistemology, philosophy of science, metaphysics, etc. But some of us move freely through a number of these sub-fields; I'm one of them.
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Randi

My apologies.  My schooling was many years ago, and barely went up through the 18th grade.  I'm way out of date.

Quote from: rachl on July 07, 2012, 01:42:43 PM
Yeah, whatever. Engaging in an internet argument over this would be absurd. Way to try to put me in my place; maybe I'll take my PhD, publications, and teaching awards and just leave?
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Devlyn

Please stick to the topic and not take jabs at one another. Thank you, Devlyn
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Kadri

Quote from: rachl on May 26, 2012, 10:15:38 AM
I'd like to note that at least one of us has a lot of power to fix the naming issue (hint: me), so if people could put together what they would actually like to see done about the naming, I can start putting the word out and meaningful change WILL happen.

Don't feel powerless. There are those of us with some power, and we're willing to use it, but we need to know what people prefer.

I don't like 'transsexual' to describe me, but it's hard to consider alternatives. What should we use?

Well, I don't mind transsexual to describe me, I'm quite happy with it so long as "woman" is added after it when there is any confusion.

What if your power to make change ends up taking away the option for those who actually want to be called transsexual? 
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rachl

Quote from: Kadri on July 08, 2012, 04:26:02 AM
Well, I don't mind transsexual to describe me, I'm quite happy with it so long as "woman" is added after it when there is any confusion.

What if your power to make change ends up taking away the option for those who actually want to be called transsexual?

It's flat-out impossible to take away someone's right to call themselves whatever they want. But the issue is wider: would it be, in general, better for the disadvantaged group if the language used to described them changed? Saying that some might like the old terms, as a way to argue against the broader benefits of change, would be like saying that at least some autistic people may like to be called "retarded," and so we shouldn't change the language.

You would still be able to identify with whatever terms you like; what would happen by changing the language is giving you that freedom. In a sense, it's what the LGBQ people did by reclaiming "queer." But lots of people don't like being called queer; so the change in language gave people more freedom to choose the terms they want to describe them.
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peky

it seems to me -if I do not say myself- that i gave you the best term: "Gender Identity Incongruity," simple, concise, and science-based. Why to look for some esoteric and confusing terms?

Comments?
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rachl

I'm not sure what you mean by "science based." Also, there's possibly a connotation that one is confused about one's gender identity with "Gender Identity Incongruence."
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peky

Quote from: rachl on July 08, 2012, 11:21:52 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by "science based." Also, there's possibly a connotation that one is confused about one's gender identity with "Gender Identity Incongruence."

"Sciences based" means that the given term is based on scientific facts.

Your innate self-perception of being: "a male, or a female, or having no gender, or  both genders, or sometimes male and sometimes female" that is you "Gender identity."

When your "Gender Identity" does not match your external genitalia, a situation that cause anxiety and unhappiness, you my dear, have a "Gender Identity Incongruity"
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Jamie D

As those of us who have worked in the natural and social sciences know, the discussion of new ideas or terminology, can sometimes become heated.  But part of science is putting new ideas, as well as old ideas, to the test.  Shibboleths are often counter-productive.

Sometimes this can cause disputes.  Sometimes this can bruise egos.  Sometimes this can hurt feelings.  But the goal is to have a civil dialogue in which these ideas can be thoroughly investigated.

Moderation on this site is to make sure the tone and tenor of the discussion remains civil, not to censor.

Differing perspectives are to be expected.  We all have our own experiences which shape our world view.  I ask that the posters here respect each others views, even if we disagree.
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rachl

Quote from: peky on July 08, 2012, 11:46:37 AM
"Sciences based" means that the given term is based on scientific facts.



Which facts? Seriously.

Your view also privileges genitals, which is a bad idea. That suggests that the goal of all people with GII is to have SRS, which we know is very false.
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peky

Quote from: rachl on July 08, 2012, 03:34:09 PM
Which facts? Seriously.

Your view also privileges genitals, which is a bad idea. That suggests that the goal of all people with GII is to have SRS, which we know is very false.

Your gender iis determined at birth, and written in your birth certificate, by the attending physician by looking at your external genitalia. So, dear, this is not my view, honey.

As facts, here is a quick one:

Sexual differentiation in the human brain
D.F. Swaab1, A-M. Bao1, T. Ishunina1,2
1Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 2Department of Histology, Kursk State
Medical University, Kursk, Russia
Functional sex differences are expressed from early childhood onwards, e.g. in our playing
behaviour and drawings. Sex differences in cognition, reproduction, gender identity (the
feeling to be male or female) and sexual orientation, and in the incidence of neurological and
psychiatric disorders in adulthood are presumed to be based upon structural and functional
sex differences in the brain. Many of such sex differences have now been described in the
human brain. They arise during development by an interaction of sex hormones and the
developing neurons, although direct genetic effects are probably also involved [1]. Factors
influencing structural [2] and functional [1, 3] sex differences in the brain are genetic factors
like mutations or polymorphisms in the sex hormone receptors, abnormal prenatal hormone
levels and compounds such as anticonvulsants, Diethylstilbestrol (an estrogen-like
compound) and environmental endocrine disrupters. When given during pregnancy they
interact with the action of sex hormones on the fetal brain. An influence of postnatal social
factors on gender or sexual orientation has not been established. In rodents, masculinization
of the brain in development is due to estrogens that are formed by aromatization of
testosterone. In sexual differentiation of the human brain direct effects of testosterone seem
to be of primary importance based upon evidence shown e.g. from subjects with mutations in
the androgen receptor, estrogen receptor or in the aromatase gene [3].
In transsexuals we observed a reversal of the sex difference in the central nucleus of the bed
nucleus of the stria terminalis. The size, type of innervation and neuron number agreed with
their gender identity and not with their genetic sex [4,5]. Various structural and functional
brain differences related to sexual orientation have now also been reported [1,6,7].
There is a clear sex difference in psychiatric disorders such as depression: the prevalence,
incidence and morbidity risk is higher in females than in males, which may be due to both
organizing and activating effects of sex hormones on the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal-axis.
Fluctuations in sex hormone levels are considered to be involved in the susceptibility to
depression, seen e.g. in the premenstrual, ante- and postpartum period, during the transition
phase to the menopause and during oral contraceptives treatment. It was found that about
40% of the activated corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) neurons in the hypothalamic
paraventricular nucleus in mood disorders expresses also the estrogen receptor (ER)- [8].
Estrogen-responsive elements are found in the CRH gene promoter region, while estrogens
stimulate CRH expression in animal studies. An androgen-responsive element in the CRH
gene promoter region has also been identified recently, which initiates a suppressing effect on
CRH expression [9].
In addition, there are sex differences present in the way the brain ages and in Alzheimer
neuropathology [3, 7]. The field is becoming extra complex by the presence of splice variants
(and isoforms) of ER- and the local production of steroid hormones in the brain. In the
human medial mamillary nucleus and hippocampus we detected, using RT-PCR, ER splice
forms skipping entire exons 7, 4 and 2 and we identified two novel variants: 1) MB1 that is
lacking 168 nucleotides in exon 1, and 2) TADDI, in which 31bp are missing in between exons
3 and 4, while 13bp are inserted from the middle of exon 2 [10,11]. In our recent work we
investigated whether canonical and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA and protein are affected
by age, menopause and Alzheimer disease (AD) in the hippocampus that is essential for
declarative memory. Experimental and clinical studies indeed suggested beneficial effects of
estrogens on hippocampus-dependent cognitive functions. Such positive effects have,
however, not been obtained in late AD stages. Interestingly, nuclear ER
immunocytochemical expression was prominently higher in young women (34-50 years of
age) than in young men (31-64 years of age), possibly due to higher plasma estrogen levels.
Moreover, nuclear ER, aromatase and the Golgi complex size which is indicative of neuronal
metabolic activity, enhanced during aging in women. Our data suggested that the elevated
expression of nuclear ER in postmenopausal women versus pre- and perimenopausal
women is due to a drop in circulating estrogen levels that seems to cause an increase in the
local estrogen production in the hippocampus, which may subsequently up-regulate ER.
Furthermore, locally synthesized estrogens may stimulate hippocampal neuronal metabolic
rate in postmenopausal women via rapid non-genomic mechanisms. In AD cases canonical
and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA, and aromatase gene transcripts were down-regulated,
suggesting reduced local estrogen levels and diminished signaling through ER. Whether this
finding may be related to a general genetic shut-down in the AD hippocampus remains to be
elucidated. Concluding, structural and functional sex differences in the brain are present in all
stages of life, and are involved in many functions in heath as well as in diseases.
References
1 Swaab DF: The human hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part I: Nuclei of the
Hypothalamus, Handbook of Clinical Neurology; in Aminoff MJ, Boller F, Swaab DF (ed. Amsterdam,
Elsevier, 2003, vol 79.
2 Swaab DF, Fliers E: A sexually dimorphic nucleus in the human brain. Science 1985; 228:1112-1115.
3 Swaab DF: Sexual differentiation of the human brain: Relevance for gender identity, transsexualism
and sexual orientation. Gynecol Endocrinol 2004;19: 301-312.
4 Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to
transsexuality. Nature 1995; 378: 68-70.
5 Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: Male-to-female transsexuals
have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000; 85: 2034-2041.
6 Swaab DF, Hofman MA: An enlarged suprachiasmatic nucleus in homosexual men. Brain Res 1990;
537: 141-148.
7 Swaab DF: The Human Hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part II: Neuropathology of the
hypothalamus and adjacent brain structures. Handbook of Clinical Neurology. Amsterdam, Elsevier,
2004.
8 Bao AM, Hestiantoro A, Van Someren EJ, Swaab DF, Zhou JN: Colocalization of corticotropinreleasing
hormone and oestrogen receptor-alpha in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus in
mood disorders. Brain 2005; 128: 1301-1313.
9 Bao AM, Fischer DF, Wu YH, Hol EM, Balesar R, Unmehopa UA, Zhou JN, Swaab DF: A direct
androgenic involvement in the expression of human corticotropin-releasing hormone. Mol Psychiatry
2006; 11: 567-576.
10 Ishunina TA, Swaab DF, Fischer DF: Estrogen receptor-alpha splice variants in the medial mamillary
nucleus of alzheimer's disease patients: Identification of a novel mb1 isoform. J Clin Endocrinol Metab
2005; 90: 3757-3765.
11 Ishunina TA, Fischer DF, Swaab DF: Estrogen receptor alpha and its splice variants in the
hippocampus in aging and alzheimer's disease. Neurobiol Aging 2006.
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M777a

Love the science Peky. Are the references easily found on the internet? Also are there books that can be found in english of the studies you mentioned? I would love to learn more and thanks for the science lesson. It was great.
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peky

Hi, miss M777a

You can tried "google scholar," but I use "Pubmed"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

I do not know about any books; usually by time a book gets published, it is usually already several years out of touch with current research.

Happy searching!
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