GLBT should not hate Christians, Nor should Christians Hate GLBT

[Snowpaw]

Agreed, Jesus taught love and would likely be furious by all the splinter groups, hate mongers and wars in His name. Go figure :/ I've met some real nice christians though, enough so that I lost the anger in my heart over it and only feel sadness seeing all the ones preaching hate and condemning others.

[SarahM777]

Agreed, Jesus taught love and would likely be furious by all the splinter groups, hate mongers and wars in His name. Go figure :/ I've met some real nice christians though, enough so that I lost the anger in my heart over it and only feel sadness seeing all the ones preaching hate and condemning others.

He would confront them the same way He confronted the Pharisees and they would hate Him too.

The sad part is that most of the hatred on both sides is based on stereotypes. They are assumed that they apply to all within the group,whether or not all within the group think and act the same way. In order for the hate to continue towards the group,all within that group must be viewed as a group not as individuals. They are painted with a broad based brush that is not based on truth but by a stereotype,which may not even apply to most but a very very small portion of the group. The stereotype can't stand when you see people as individuals. Why? Because many do not fit the stereotype. It can only work if the stereotype applies to all.

Do any of us really want to be stereotyped?

The true test of a Christian is Do they love their enemies? Because when all is said and done Jesus left no room ever for anyone to hate. If we can't love one as a spouse,a relative,a friend,a neighbor,or a stranger,in the very end we are commanded to love our enemies. Can anyone find any room in all of that for hate by a "Christian"?  It is to be the definition of follower of Jesus.

[SarahM777]

Then what does one do with the fundamental Christian transgendered brothers and sisters? They may not agree on every issue but are they seen as allies or enemies? Do they get treated with the same respect that others want to be treated with? Are they really accepted with the same open arms or are they thrown to the wolfs? If they are seen as being worthy of contempt,ridicule and mocking,that comes from the other side is that not the same type of hypocrisy?

Maybe just maybe because they are on the inside so others can see that it could be their father,mother,brother,sister,son,daughter,coworker or friend,perhaps then they can see that we are human also. Can one really expect if they are shoved to the side,treated with contempt,mocked,and ridiculed that they would even want to try to change things because they get it from both sides and what is the point for them to keep trying? Pile it on enough and they will come to the point of rejecting both sides and have contempt for both,and just may end up being enemies of both.

They to need to hear that they are accepted. Not that they are agreed with. It's a fine line,no doubt about it. They may need to hear it more so,than any others because they are in amongst the lion's den,and hear it far more often than those on the outside,and they need to be lifted up by those on the outside. Far too often they will be walking alone.

Maybe just maybe if they were encouraged to keep going in a very tough environment,through staying in that situation some good could come from it. Perhaps they can make some small changes, it won't change it all and that can not be expected.
Does it ever occur to us that some of them may be called to stay there to bring about some changes in their treatment of us? How many of us would really want to do it,standing in the line of fire,being on the front lines? And then to be shot at from behind? Does this somehow sound like a good plan or does it sound like a suicide mission? Are they nursed back to health so they can go on or are they left to bleed to death?

Does it really make any sense to take the few allies that are on the inside trying to affect some change,and to cast them away? Doesn't most change come from the inside?

[SarahM777]

That then leads to another question. (Don't you just love those questions?) Does it mean that all people associated with a certain group hate? If one is associated with the KKK or Nazis then the answer is most likely yes as those groups do promote it and act on it.

But on the other side are all bikers violent,are all Muslims terrorists,etc etc? If it's only a smaller number within the group then a blanket statement that all are like that is a lie.

Which brings us to the main question Do ALL fundamental Christian's truly hate us? If it is not true then what is happening is that the words and actions of some are applied to all without merit. If it is true all do it then it stands.  What I have found is most often it is some (not all) of the pastors (fundamentalists),will take it seriously and do not condemn us. Is it all or is it some?

[SarahM777]

Then that leads to the $64,000 question. Why should they continue to try to be a go between only to have their heads handed back to them on a silver platter? What is the point?

[Snowpaw]

Then what does one do with the fundamental Christian transgendered brothers and sisters? They may not agree on every issue but are they seen as allies or enemies? Do they get treated with the same respect that others want to be treated with? Are they really accepted with the same open arms or are they thrown to the wolfs? If they are seen as being worthy of contempt,ridicule and mocking,that comes from the other side is that not the same type of hypocrisy?

Maybe just maybe because they are on the inside so others can see that it could be their father,mother,brother,sister,son,daughter,coworker or friend,perhaps then they can see that we are human also. Can one really expect if they are shoved to the side,treated with contempt,mocked,and ridiculed that they would even want to try to change things because they get it from both sides and what is the point for them to keep trying? Pile it on enough and they will come to the point of rejecting both sides and have contempt for both,and just may end up being enemies of both.

They to need to hear that they are accepted. Not that they are agreed with. It's a fine line,no doubt about it. They may need to hear it more so,than any others because they are in amongst the lion's den,and hear it far more often than those on the outside,and they need to be lifted up by those on the outside. Far too often they will be walking alone.

Maybe just maybe if they were encouraged to keep going in a very tough environment,through staying in that situation some good could come from it. Perhaps they can make some small changes, it won't change it all and that can not be expected.
Does it ever occur to us that some of them may be called to stay there to bring about some changes in their treatment of us? How many of us would really want to do it,standing in the line of fire,being on the front lines? And then to be shot at from behind? Does this somehow sound like a good plan or does it sound like a suicide mission? Are they nursed back to health so they can go on or are they left to bleed to death?

Does it really make any sense to take the few allies that are on the inside trying to affect some change,and to cast them away? Doesn't most change come from the inside?

Feed them to the Kraken! /sarc

[SarahM777]

Isn't that what happens far to often?

[Snowpaw]

Isn't that what happens far to often?

Unfortunately, sometimes what happens is they come to a place like this or some other forum seen as a safeground, they might say something seen as a condemnation of the umbrella most of us find ourselves under. After that well I don't know what to say. That's life, it never has been straight forward or easy to understand. They are gonna get hounded, their every word will be under scrutiny. Because their views are seen as the "enemies" view by a lot of the community. I don't know what to say, if they are going to use their big book to condemn they are going to be going to meet people who truly understand the bible. Or koran, or torah, or whatever big book they follow. I don't think Jesus was hateful or used the book to beat people into believing. That's the problem with most fundies I've met to be honest. I won't be beaten down but I will stand up for myself or any other I see them beating on. So maybe it's not so much throwing them to the kraken or lions, but castigating the pharisees.

[Sephirah]

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Remembering that little sentence would solve a lot of problems. Regardless of what beliefs you hold.

[SarahM777]

The thing is that the stories of Jesus and the people He touched were truly sinking in,I should see myself in the woman at the well who had five husbands and was at that living living with a sixth man that wasn't her husband,I should see myself in Mary Magdeline who was possessed by demons,I should see myself in the lost coin and sheep,I should see myself when Peter denied Him,I should see myself in the thief on the cross,I should see myself in the hungry crowds. I am no better and in many ways so much worse. But I should see His compassion and His love for them. And if it makes a change in my heart then I also should be showing the same. And it also should be the same for those who see themselves as fundamentalists because of the way they see the scriptures.

I am not any better than anyone else here and in some ways so much worse. I just see the Jesus that loved each and every single one of the people above and had compassion on each and every single one of them. The Jesus I know loves each one of here so much. He loves them right where they are today. And if saying come meet the Jesus I know who loves you so much is somehow wrong ....then what is right? How can I not say so when He can love someone like me,me a total wreck of a human being,broken,twisted and confused,and then He takes me and makes me new. A love so deep and real with very real peace. It is so awesome to know Him and to know He knows me and will not toss me out like so much trash.

[SarahM777]

Unfortunately, sometimes what happens is they come to a place like this or some other forum seen as a safeground, they might say something seen as a condemnation of the umbrella most of us find ourselves under. After that well I don't know what to say. That's life, it never has been straight forward or easy to understand. They are gonna get hounded, their every word will be under scrutiny. Because their views are seen as the "enemies" view by a lot of the community. I don't know what to say, if they are going to use their big book to condemn they are going to be going to meet people who truly understand the bible. Or koran, or torah, or whatever big book they follow. I don't think Jesus was hateful or used the book to beat people into believing. That's the problem with most fundies I've met to be honest. I won't be beaten down but I will stand up for myself or any other I see them beating on. So maybe it's not so much throwing them to the kraken or lions, but castigating the pharisees.

And dealing with the modern day Pharisees is not an easy thing to do. How hard was it for them the so called "good guys" of their day to be told by Jesus that the tax collectors and the prostitutes (the unclean and sinners) would enter into the kingdom of heaven before they would. The Pharisees thought they had it made they "obeyed" the letter of the law but MISSED the spirit of it. And how many more things did He call the Pharisees out on? So much so they hated Him.

The modern day ones are no better and He would say the very same things to them. And they too would hate Him. So many have put on a veneer,they cleaned up the outside and have never dealt with the inside. They want to be judge,jury,and executioner. Thank God it's not up to them. An awful lot of them will get a very rude awaking,because the day will come when He tells them this (and these are so called believers)

Matthew 25

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

and again talking to so called believers

He said to them, 24 "Try very hard to enter through the narrow door. I tell you, many will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 The owner of the house will get up and close the door. Then you will stand outside knocking and begging. You will say, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you. And I don't know where you come from.'

26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you. You taught in our streets.'

27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you. And I don't know where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil!'

Not all who say they are Christian truly are. Many are false. The test of the believer is the love they have for others. If it's not there question it. A true Christian can not hate others. If they hate others then how are they true Christians? Will they disagree with on things? Of course,but they will do so in a spirit of love.

[Brooke777]

I go to a great Church where they teach love and acceptance to everyone. There are three other transwomen there, two married lesbian couples, three unmarried lesbian couples, a few single lesbians and gays. They are a great congregation, and accept everyone there. They hold a PFLAG meeting every month, and an LGBT support group once a week. Not all Christians and Churches are haters. There are some who truly teach what Christ taught.

[peky]

Agree!!!

8 years of daily beatings at the hand of the catholic priest, forgiven

Witnessing the cultural genocide of 1/3 of the Horani tribe by the evangelical preachers, forgiven

No, I do not hate any Christian, I just despise the ones who proselytize

[SarahM777]

No, I do not hate any Christian, I just despise the ones who proselytize

Can one not expect to be preached to when one steps on their ground? If one were to go to a church,listen to Christian radio,watch Christian TV,or go into a place when you know that it is set up for Christians, that you are not going to hear it?

The same goes for the other side. Can a fundamental Christian going onto websites,gay bars etc,not expect to hear the other side on their ground?

There is a reality that both sides do. Both at times become confrontational. At times each one will start it. In the US do not both have the right of free speech? Doesn't one have the right not to stand there and walk away if one chooses not to listen? If people than at that point would not follow the person leaving it would end it at that point. Once it crosses the line to being confrontational both sides are wrong. It does not win anyone over to the other side so to speak. I have no problem with either side speaking as long as it remains peaceful.
But both sides must learn when it is time to walk away. If one is not receptive to the other side at that point is it really going to do any good to chase after them or is it going to drive them further away?

Going to someone's else's home,apartment,or place of business the rules change because than one is dealing with someones else's space. They have rights to how they are going to use that space and how things are going to work their. The property owner has every right to ask someone to leave and it should be done lovingly and quickly. Confronting someone in their own space does not win anyone over. Insults do not win any one over. Being sensitive to the other can win someone over.

There is a world of difference between an inventational approach and a confrontational approach,one is aggressive and the other is passive. The passive will not be seen as threatening as the other. Being aggressive and threatening does not usually work. People will get their backs up and dig their heals in and if it is let go long enough,will end up in violence. An invintational approach will always come from the view point of we have something good that we want to share with you and we want you to be a part of it also,but it will not be forced on someone.

If more Christians would take  the Biblical pattern they would learn to live it out first before ever opening their mouth. It' should be learn to live it out in the flesh then speak after. To much putting the cart before the horse and it does not work that way. Even Paul had to learn to walk the walk before talking the talk.

Maybe if Christians could learn to put this in practice first it would solve a lot of problems

Seen and Not Heard - Petra

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[SarahM777]

Taking it one step further. A fundamentalist "Christian" that hates comes in direct conflict with 1 John. Why you may ask? First a fundamentalist believes that the Bible is the inspired,inerrant,infallible word of God. Then what do they do with 1 John? The only way they can deal with it is  to ignore it,change it,or think that it doesn't apply to them. What does 1 John deal with? John gets right to the heart of the matter about those who say they love God yet hate their brothers and sisters. Here again it is to those who claim to be believers.

1 John 2:9-11

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

1 John 4:

20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Isn't it very plain and to the point? Does it not show that someone who claims to be a Christian yet hates his brother or sister is a liar and they are false? So much so that loving your brother and sister is equated with loving God. It leaves no room for debate on the fundamentalists side. They can't do both loving God and hating their brothers and sisters. They are in opposition to each other.

[SarahM777]

If you think about it a transgendered fundamentalist Christian does have some advantages when dealing with other fundamentalist Christians. Especially one that knows their Bible.
One is the mind set. If our mind sets are similar it's far easier to go head to head,toe to toe,line upon line,precept upon precept. It is far harder for one fundamentalist to dismiss what another one is saying especially when it comes directly from the Bible in context. Why? Because our core beliefs on what the Bible is,is the same. Our lingo is the same.

It is far harder for them to rattle me as much. It much harder for them to throw me a curve ball. Been there,done that and have heard it all before. They don't scare me anymore and I will go head to head with them. They themselves don't have all the answers (They like to think they do).

Can we who are transgendered fundamentalists not go into places and speak out in ways that most others here can not and be heard in ways that others will not be heard?

[Joann]

I was in a fundamentalist church that preached the "love of jesus" but if i demonstrated ANY signs of having gender issues i would be prayed over and have the devil rebuked out of me and they wouldn't stop until I passed out or puked.
Once i was attracted to another man there and we would hug a little too tightly. They tormented him with forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him.
The last i saw of him he was running to his car crying. I still have night mirrors of this. .
Beware of mind control
I have to go...

[Shantel]

I was in a fundamentalist church that preached the "love of jesus" but if i demonstrated ANY signs of having gender issues i would be prayed over and have the devil rebuked out of me and they wouldn't stop until I passed out or puked.
Once i was attracted to another man there and we would hug a little too tightly. They tormented him with forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him.
The last i saw of him he was running to his car crying. I still have night mirrors of this. .
Beware of mind control
I have to go...

I used to be active in a non-denominational Christian church, and eventually became disconcerted by how most seemed to find me more acceptable if I acted like a clone rather than have my own personality. It finally dawned on me that was not what the creator would have wanted, after all he created giraffes, zebras, monkeys, lions, tigers, crocs, and elephants, all radically different creatures and he loves them all. So what does that say about people? I believe in Jesus apart from membership in any corporate group, and think He's just wonderful apart from many of the phonies I've met.

[ethereal]

I have known a lot of kind and caring Christians and Mormons who do not judge, but i have also known ones who were asked to be bigoted by authorities in their church.  My cousin told me that his pastor at his Baptist church said to give LGBT people the cold shoulder and to socially isolate them. 

Well, he still goes to that church and he has not even looked in my direction in like 10 years. 

What bothers me most is that some people really do not know what to feel about transition, and when they turn to their church, some churches tell them to socially isolate or even hate.  Some say see it as a sin, but don't judge.  It's only the more liberal and often better educated ones that are more likely to be loving and compassionate.

[tekla]

You are assuming that the LGBT people would accept the debate on the Christian terms, when in fact most of the LGBT people I know don't accept the basic premise.  If you reject that centeral premise - indeed reject the entire notion of any Bronze Age morality/religion based on having some invisible sky god - then why would you want to go head to head,toe to toe,line upon line,precept upon precept?  The growing notion in modern Western society (that big 'secular' deal you've been hearing so much about), is that none of that is real, provable or can be sustained.  While its' possible to do that line upon line thing, it's like people quoting Dead or Dylan lyrics to each other, it means nothing if you're not into the band.

So I'm not going to debate Xians based on their bizarrely translated (several times) stories, myths and legends because like many people I'm (obviously) not buying into the original premise.  I would want to debate them in a framework of reason and rationality, and as House has wisely pointed out: Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.  Any debate based on reason and done in a scientific framework is still-born because there is no reasonable scientific proof that can be offered.

To that end then 99% of the problems are one way, coming from religion at LGBT.  I don't see LTBT people (or any other non-believers) trying to 'rationalize the religion away' or trying to scientifically eliminate religious thoughts and actions, or ganging up on someone and trying to 'reason the lord out of him'.  Indeed the only real advocacy on the part of the secularists that could be considered as 'hostile' to religion is the growing notion that churches should be taxed like everything else.  Other than that they are simply doing their best to ignore the entire religion/church spectrum and really only pays attention when the religious types attempt to force their beliefs into law and codify them into the social order.

And I regularly see groups (always from out of town) go and have prayer stuff in gay neighborhoods, but I've yet to see a bunch of gays show up in a religious setting and try to convert everyone to fabulous.  Simply put activitivities like the one below where forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him are one way, there is no mirror other.