Definition of Androgyne (moved from introductions)

[suzifrommd]

I want to comment on a post in the Androgyne Inroductions forum. I'm moving it here so as not to gum up the Introductions thread.

it would be prudent for you to read this thread:
http://https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22474.0.html
Here you will discover, without uncertainty, that Androgyne is not an umbrella term.
An Androgyne is a person... a person of a specific gender type.

Thank you Emerald for posting this. (Note that I corrected the url slightly).

I was not aware of this thread. I will confess I found it very upsetting. I was aware of Susan's definition of Androgyne - that to be an Androgyne, you need to be "neither distinguishably masculine or feminine." I was aware that this contradicted definitions elsewhere on the Internet, but I wasn't aware how strongly this site felt about cleaving to it verbatim.

It would certainly leave me out. I have lost too much hair to be anything but distinguishably masculine, and my behavior and dress are masculine as well.

Does that mean that in the eyes of this site, regardless of how I identify, I am not an androgyne?

I kind of hoped that based on the number of bigendered, genderfluid, and other genderqueer folk that have made their homes in the androgyne area that some of the more inclusive definitions of androgyne were honored here, but reading the thread that Emerald dug up would lead me to believe that isn't so.

Reading between the lines of that thread, it seems like Susan was reacting most strongly to the use of HRT for cosmetic purposes, something this site has always (rightly) deprecated. But the text of the thread makes it clear that the alternate definitions of androgyne are also a concern.

I'm not sure what the implications are, but as someone who has found a home in the Androgyne part of this site, I am troubled.

[aleon515]

I was not aware of this thread. I will confess I found it very upsetting. I was aware of Susan's definition of Androgyne - that to be an Androgyne, you need to be "neither distinguishably masculine or feminine." I was aware that this contradicted definitions elsewhere on the Internet, but I wasn't aware how strongly this site felt about cleaving to it verbatim.

It would certainly leave me out. I have lost too much hair to be anything but distinguishably masculine, and my behavior and dress are masculine as well.

Does that mean that in the eyes of this site, regardless of how I identify, I am not an androgyne?

I kind of hoped that based on the number of bigendered, genderfluid, and other genderqueer folk that have made their homes in the androgyne area that some of the more inclusive definitions of androgyne were honored here, but reading the thread that Emerald dug up would lead me to believe that isn't so.

I agree that it appears she is reacting to the use of HRT for cosmetic reasons. Not sure that I know of anybody who has done this. I feel that some gender noncomforming people have used it to help "match themselves'. But heck there are a lot of people and I am sure that some people have done this. I also would wonder, like she does, re: a person who says they identify as androgyne and then say "I want DDD breasts" (unless somewhere else they wanted to appear masculine).

I also don't think she has come into our discussions, and said, "no most of you people are not androgyne according to the definition I picked out, so leave!" Nor has she personally made me feel unwelcome otherwise.

Anyway, I have to admit I just don't like the term. I know people have gone on about how one term or the other is the same to them, but it isn't to me. I guess I like the more political, in your face "genderqueer". Though I don't seek a fight. That said, I strongly disagree with this definition. Honestly, I think that there are probably VERY few people who identify this way will actually really fit this definition. I certainly do NOT. I am at an age, where I cannot do the young unshaved male anymore. It's my brain that's androgyne (to use the word here) *not* my presentation.

In fact, I don't think presentation has much at all to do with gender. There are people who live their whole lives, for many reasons ranging from financial to social, basically stuck in the wrong body. They would never transition, but they would still feel in their hearts that they are that gender.

Androgynous presentation is very common, but might not mean that much about the insides of the person, who might know/ feel darn well that they are clearly male or female.
I do not.

In my mind, I don't really clearly feel like a female. I'm not even too certain re: gender what is it. I have body dysphoria, in that I feel when I look in the mirror (esp. nude) that I am not really this person I see. However, if I see myself in baggy clothes-- and I never understood this til a few months ago. It hides my body.

BTW, that all said, I'm not sure exactly what this is. Is it gender identity "disorder"? Is it on a spectrum of transgender? Is it some separate gender? Currently I am of the opinion that it is on the spectrum. That does NOT make it trans-light. Almost all conditions of humanity are not a or b that are a going towards b, so I don't think trans* would be different. I might very well change my mind on this tomorrow. :-)


I like this definition here for now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
(it includes different things like agender, bigender, pan gender, other gender, etc. I think what Susan is talking about, btw, is "agender") Also she said she's open to other subgroups, but that kind of makes my head hurt to be honest.


--Jay Jay

[Taka]

that thread is really old, from 2007

i'm pretty sure that the current definition is the one you find on the wiki:
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne

and also all the definitions you can find in our own thread (since it hasn't been closed):
Shedding some light

this site, per our own definitions, uses "androgyne" as an umbrella term for any type of non-binary gender identity
and "androgynous" for everything that has to do with appearance

(someone will hopefully correct me if i'm totally wrong about it, but this is what i've gathered from around a year of discussions here)

[Jamie D]

I have said in other androgyne threads that labels tend to "box me in."

In the "Androgyne Introductions" thread I posted the definitions I use as my personal guideline for "androgenous."

"Androgenous" as I use it is best summed up as"

1. being both male and female; hermaphroditic.
2. having both masculine and feminine characteristics.
3. having an ambiguous sexual identity.
4. neither clearly masculine nor clearly feminine in appearance.

(Dictionary.com)

As I noted there, the terminology has evolved in time.  I certainly see "androgenous" as an umbrella, but I respect the views of those who see it differently.

[suzifrommd]

that thread is really old, from 2007

i'm pretty sure that the current definition is the one you find on the wiki:
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne

I like that definition much better. However the definition from the thread is still current. If you go to the announcements forum and click on the very first pinned topic, Standard Terms and Definitions on Susan's Place (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html),
you'll find the definition for androgyne still matches the 2007 thread.

Should we suggest that the site admins to reconcile the two definitions or are we happy to live with the ambiguity?

[Taka]

this place is defined by us who are here. some more ambiguity can't possibly make it more confusing than it already is (i think)

the best thing would probably be to just be
and hopefully this will make our little corner of the forums reflect some of us, and not what someone else defined us as

but i must admit, that definitions seems a little.. outdated?

[Androgynous]

 "Androgynous"  is not a sexuality it's a way of life be yourself. Androgynous is 1, Androgynous is everything in the organic world manifesting both genders–there is always the Masculine present in the Feminine form, and vice versa #Duality. Androgynous is the mind containing both a male and female part, and for "complete satisfaction and happiness," the two must live in harmony. The androgynous mindŠtransmits emotion without impedimentŠit is naturally creative, incandescent and undivided ,Shakespeare is a fine model of this. remember that androgyny does not imply a total absence of gender, complete fusion that obliterates any gender-consciousness =frees the mind. A good cooperation of the dual energies would create positivity and prevent imbalanced emotions from emerging. #BeHappy. Happiness is a main characteristic of the androgynous flow. And those who hold such a flow are skilled in being happy. #BeHappy. Quotes From the lovely Virgina Wolf and Samuel Taylor Coleridge "The truth is, a great mind must be androgynous. 1 September 1832." meaning the unification of the left side of the Brain and the unity of the right side of the Brain gives you the complete satisfaction of Happiness.
follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/#!/androgynyscents. Have a great day.

[Pica Pica]

We are not talking about Androgynous really, we are talking about androgyne, which is something very different.

I had taken a few weeks off the internet when this post happened and so was not part of the discussion. Had I have been there, I would have asked the definition to include and emphasise the identity element of the word far and above 'dress, appearance and behaviour'.

I would also have questioned the linking between androgyne and androgynous - which have always meant very different things to me.

However, if you read some of Susan's responses, they show good reasoning and understanding of androgynes and androgynity.

A Transsexual can be Andyogynous, but that doesn't make them not a transsexual. A Crossdresser also can be Androgynous, but that again doesn't make them not a crossdresser......The key is that androgyne is neither masculine nor feminine which doesn't apply to many other segements of the communities serviced by this web site...The issue is that people have been trying to fit non-androgyne groups into the androgyne definition by using it as an umbrella term which it is not. ...I would rather have smaller and more specific communities, than large all encompassing ones. It makes the job of support easier.

So although I don't think it is the perfect definition (especially from my point of view of wanting to split androgyne and androgynous) it is one that does the job just about and has been insisted on for good reasons.

Finally, androgynes seem to have a fairly fluent attitude to language and am sure will continue using the term as they see fit without official guidelines.