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Objectification of MTFs - just like women's?

Started by Elena G, June 22, 2012, 02:23:19 PM

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Trans Truth

It's a sad, sad situation.
It's why I support great increases to welfare spending, to prevent an underclass (usually comprising of disadvantaged people of all stripes) having to do this for a living.
It's why even though socially I am a bit old-fashioned (for my generation) economically I am well to the left.
http://trans-solutions.blogspot.com/ - Calling for solutions for all trans people.



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8888

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
Wow, you really have the whole small minded thing going on for you...

Calling someone "small minded" is almost a preface to a small minded response.



Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
I absolutely can blame male consumers because there's no reason they can't fulfill their sexual desires without exploiting others. Your claim is like saying we can't blame rapists because they can't help themselves, it's utterly disgusting.

Consumers of porn are not exploiting women, you're confusing them with producers who are not in the same legue. The average man's brain is pumped with images of sexualised women via the mainstream media, if it's there they will take it. You can't liken them to rapists as they are not directly harming anyone and are doing it in their own privacy. It's generally morally acceptible for men to look at porn in the same way as it's becoming morally acceptable for women to be in it. Social stigmas and customary laws are sometimes stronger than those enforced, with time these are slowly being lifted as the sex and advertisement industries are realising the potential income they could be making. This is having a profound effect on thought processes of not just men but women as we are seeing with the advent to conditions such as annorexia, body dismorphia and general attitudes and behavior towards the opposite sex.




Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
"Seem to enjoy it", they have to act like they enjoy it because that's what the consumers want.

You honestly haven't observed young women much have you? A good number of them crave male attention and want to make some sort of visual impression. We are talking about first world countries here, and these are the type of women that would more likely turn to webcam modelling. It's not always solely about money, a good factor to consider would be self-esteem. To not be able to achknowledge various different determinants which don't fulfil your prearranged solution is a good example of small-mindedness.


Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
And finally, banning it is something I would be very very weary about. Prohibition is the go-to simple answer for complex sociological problems, and it almost always just makes the problem worse. Child pornography is illegal and now there are whole underground networks of men abusing their children for others. I suspect better regulation combined with MUCH greater social support would be a much better approach to the problem.

You can't eliminate anything 100%, but only a minority will turn to the black market. Are you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised? The plan is to prevent women from being exploited by the sex industry, and the best solution is to ban porn production/distribution. If money is the only force driving women to porn then the only type of regulation that might work would be enforced maximum wages, which isn't going to happen in a country which practically promotes greed.
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mementomori

a ban on pornography would be ridiculious ,archaic and woukd be sending us back to a state of 1950s conservatism . not everyone thats in pornography is being exploited or doing it out of desperation some people are natural exhibitionists and enjoy it , people are explioted in every industry not just the sex industry
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Rising_Angel

The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.

The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.

In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators.  Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species.  The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further.  This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets."  The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets.  If we didn't have them, where would we get our food?  Or our cars?  No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner.  The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur.  The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us.  In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem.  It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.

I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability.  Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability.  The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich.  The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.

Just my two cents.
Insist on yourself, never imitate. ~RW Emerson
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Elena G

Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 28, 2012, 12:55:44 PM
The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.

The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.

In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators.  Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species.  The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further.  This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets."  The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets.  If we didn't have them, where would we get our food?  Or our cars?  No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner.  The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur.  The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us.  In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem.  It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.

I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability.  Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability.  The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich.  The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.

Just my two cents.

Yeah, that's my main view too. The ugly thing is that something as degrading as THAT is becoming the easiest way to make money, and thus, making "sex" a very strong force in the money-making machinery. And you know what happens when the roots are poisonous...
Be kind to me,
or treat me mean...
I'll make the most of it,
I'm an extraordinary machine
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: 8888 on June 28, 2012, 09:50:16 AM
Calling someone "small minded" is almost a preface to a small minded response.



Consumers of porn are not exploiting women, you're confusing them with producers who are not in the same legue. The average man's brain is pumped with images of sexualised women via the mainstream media, if it's there they will take it. You can't liken them to rapists as they are not directly harming anyone and are doing it in their own privacy. It's generally morally acceptible for men to look at porn in the same way as it's becoming morally acceptable for women to be in it. Social stigmas and customary laws are sometimes stronger than those enforced, with time these are slowly being lifted as the sex and advertisement industries are realising the potential income they could be making. This is having a profound effect on thought processes of not just men but women as we are seeing with the advent to conditions such as annorexia, body dismorphia and general attitudes and behavior towards the opposite sex.




You honestly haven't observed young women much have you? A good number of them crave male attention and want to make some sort of visual impression. We are talking about first world countries here, and these are the type of women that would more likely turn to webcam modelling. It's not always solely about money, a good factor to consider would be self-esteem. To not be able to achknowledge various different determinants which don't fulfil your prearranged solution is a good example of small-mindedness.


You can't eliminate anything 100%, but only a minority will turn to the black market. Are you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised? The plan is to prevent women from being exploited by the sex industry, and the best solution is to ban porn production/distribution. If money is the only force driving women to porn then the only type of regulation that might work would be enforced maximum wages, which isn't going to happen in a country which practically promotes greed.

I've said everything I feel I need to say to you and don't have any real desire to continue discussing this with you.

The only reason I'm replying at all is to reply to this question.

QuoteAre you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised?

Yes.... obviously not child porn involving actual children in any way, But simulated child porn... animated/cgi/written.

Far better pedophiles look at that than abuse their children in producing their own.
And no I don't think there will be a boom in its consumption, I think there will  be a modest increase in the already existing pedophile community and that it may well reduce the amount of actual child porn being produced.

Fact is nobody has tried it and done studies on it so this is all conjecture, but it's worth a trial.

Abuse of children is absolutely unacceptable and horrible, but we can't afford to loose our grip on science because of it and engage in emotionally charged unthinking responses. Our duty is to protect children, and to do that we need to make every effort to do what will work, not just what our emotions make us feel good about doing. Pedophiles exist and they don't choose to be pedophiles, they do choose to abuse children but again, choice is a funny thing. We should trial legalization of measures that do not involve any actual children to try and support pedophiles so we can know who they are, and keep them from being driven underground where they can do whatever they like.

As for the rest of your post, I've already said what I have to say on it.
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 28, 2012, 12:55:44 PM
The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.

The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.

In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators.  Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species.  The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further.  This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets."  The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets.  If we didn't have them, where would we get our food?  Or our cars?  No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner.  The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur.  The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us.  In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem.  It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.

I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability.  Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability.  The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich.  The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.

Just my two cents.

Money is just the symptom... not the cause.

People have always exploited others for their benefit, its an ingrained part of humanity.
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ElusiveAppellation

Fetishes and kinks can either be helpful or be a hindrance.

Exploring fetishes and kinks with a partner as a way or learning more about each other and bonding with them is helpful.
Focusing on fetishes and kinks, such that potential partners are only ever seen for how they fit into said fetishes and kinks, is a hindrance.

Like so many other things in life, fetishes and kinks are only good or bad depending on how individuals choose to utilize and pursue them. If the fetishes and kinks come to mean more to someone than interpersonal relationships... that would be an indication that something is unbalanced, to say the least. Of course, since I'm demisexual/gray-A, I might be biased about that last point, though I have a strong intuition I'm not mistaken about it.
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MadelineB

Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 02:23:19 PM
I've seen countless pictures of naked MTF girls, non-op, on websites, in very graphic situations. You know what I'm talking about. I've got nothing against that. What I find slightly contradictory is that this is the very same thing they might, later in life, complain about. Like, most people see transsexuals as nothing but sex craving individuals, and make us an object to 'dream' with very much like the women that make the covers of so and so magazine.

A little late to this interesting thread - thanks Elena.

From my old college days as an outwardly male feminist steeped in psychological, sociological, biological, and economic theories:

It was agreed back then (probably out of date now) that
-women objectified sexually in part due to male biology (male sexual attraction driven by visual processing, desire for novelty, excitement tied to perceived risk, etc)
-most individuals are on bisexual spectrum but in denial; denial gives additional sexual potence to attraction to object that is denied/forbidden.
-male sex drive connected strongly in primates to power differentials; sex used to control, punish, promote, reward, overpower, own.
-other theorists claimed these not male traits but aspects of individuals in higher social position, regardless of gender. Objectification tends to be of lower status individuals, especially women, people of color, sexual and other minorities, and young people.

If they have a point, then images involving the display (and degradation) of the objects of the greatest phobias and discrimination would be expected to be highly effective in getting these monkeys turned on.

On the socio-economic side, populations that have no other option for survival will turn to what ever survival strategy works that they have available.

With 40% of homeless youth being LGBTQI (a very large proportion of which are trans), and with trans people of color facing unemployment and underemployment at rates 4 to 8 times higher than the general population, with trans youth subject to more traumatic experiences leading to drug addiction and low self-esteem, there are some very desperate victims of society's hate doing whatever they can to live. There but for the grace of god(dess) go I.

If I had a trans daughter or son, I would encourage them to avoid public sexual displays that could harm them later (just like I would for cis), but I would try not to conflate that self-esteem/safety issue with the meager work options of very brave young people with little or no social or family support. The answer there is to improve their options, reduce self-harm, and and remove the stigma that drives the whole steamy engine.
History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.
~Maya Angelou

Personal Blog: Madeline's B-Hive
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UCBerkeleyPostop

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 24, 2012, 09:05:40 AM

Don't get me wrong, women's rights and gender equality have made significant advances in an extremely short period of time, and that's something to be proud of.
6000 years is an extremely short period of time?  :angel:

( I should say 6000 years that we know about and of which we have a clear historical record of paternalism.)
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cynthialee

If transsexual women were not sexualy exploited like natal women are there would be a hew and cry over the transphobia in the erotic/pornographic industry.
There would be transsexuals in a huff over the lack of similar objectification.

My opinion is that I have no issues fullfiling someones sexual kink, because if they have negotiated their way into my bedroom they are going to have to fulfill my kinks and perversions in kind.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 01, 2012, 12:18:06 PM

6000 years is an extremely short period of time?  :angel:

( I should say 6000 years that we know about and of which we have a clear historical record of paternalism.)

The point being the most significant of advances, women suffrage, representation in government, equal opportunities and rights, have made more significant gains in just the last 100 years than virtually all of the rest of that time.
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Rising_Angel

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 30, 2012, 09:17:29 PM
Money is just the symptom... not the cause.

People have always exploited others for their benefit, its an ingrained part of humanity.

You realize that by saying "for their own benefit" proves exactly why money is the cause, right?  In an environment where there wasn't the inherent benefit of money, then there would be no impetus to exploit.  Moreover, there would be no reason to be exploited.
Insist on yourself, never imitate. ~RW Emerson
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cynthialee

Quote from: Rising_Angel on July 02, 2012, 01:11:32 PM
You realize that by saying "for their own benefit" proves exactly why money is the cause, right?  In an environment where there wasn't the inherent benefit of money, then there would be no impetus to exploit.  Moreover, there would be no reason to be exploited.
If it wasn't money it would be baskets of wheat, or bushels of fruits or any number of other barter goods. So long as there is an inequitable distribution of resourses there will be these issues. Only with true equality and uniform social status can we be done with the social ills of control and power. But that is pie in the sky, people are to attached to their hierarchys of power and serving a master.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Rising_Angel

Quote from: cynthialee on July 02, 2012, 08:14:45 PM
If it wasn't money it would be baskets of wheat, or bushels of fruits or any number of other barter goods. So long as there is an inequitable distribution of resourses there will be these issues. Only with true equality and uniform social status can we be done with the social ills of control and power. But that is pie in the sky, people are to attached to their hierarchys of power and serving a master.

Totally agree ... the amassing of personal resource fulfills a totally base need for survival, that was my point from the beginning.  We're not a herd species - devoted to the survival of the whole, we are very much a predatory pack mentality - committed to survival of the self and immediate social group.  This basic behavioral default has to be changed, and it's not an easy prospect, but it's possible.  The behavior is represented most effectively as a power addiction, one that is centered around the most visible reward of that addiction which, in this case, is money.
Insist on yourself, never imitate. ~RW Emerson
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UCBerkeleyPostop

"We're not a herd species - devoted to the survival of the whole, we are very much a predatory pack mentality - committed to survival of the self and immediate social group."

I could not disagree more with your Hobbesian viewpoint.  The key to human survival lies in our ability to co-operate with one another.


  "This basic behavioral default has to be changed, and it's not an easy prospect, but it's possible.  The behavior is represented most effectively as a power addiction, one that is centered around the most visible reward of that addiction which, in this case, is money."


I would agree that moving away from a laissez-faire capitalistic society has to be changed and won't be easy. OTOH a society in which .1% of the population controls a great deal of the wealth is not sustainable. I do not think that greed is an inherent human trait. I believe that is learned. The sad part is that  the philosophies of mental defectives such as Thomas Hobbes and Ayn Rand are given credibility.
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Dahlia

This objectification of MTF's is mostly done by 'straight' (bi) men who secretly have T issues themselves.....(fetish) tv's, cd's and yes, pre MTF's too.

A matter of 'projection' by 'straight' men who are most certainly not to envy.

My  estimation is that out of 10 men who pretend to be 'straight' in daily life at least 5 are practising bisexuals and at least 3 out of those 5 have T issues themselves.
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EmmaMcAllister

While I certainly agree that "objectification" is a terrible thing, I think the term gets thrown around too often. Sexuality is not our enemy, and to assume that attraction to pre-op women is just a simple fetish is to place faith in a strict gender binary I don't believe exists.

The sex industry attracts vulnerable groups, no question. But rational people also choose these careers. Sex is a key aspect of the human condition, and you'll never get rid of sex based entertainment. Blaming the consumer is problematic because it paints them all with the same brush, assuming that no one turns to the sex industry for healthy reasons.

Myself, I enjoy pornography and I do use the services of prostitutes. Am I helping to prop up these industries? In my own small way, yes. But I'm a physically disabled person, not particularly attractive, and sex partners have never really been available to me. Without porn and sex workers, I would never be able to explore my sexuality. Should I just let my situation leave me asexual? Am I "objectifying" sex workers? Am I a horrible person? No, no, and I hope not.

These things are never black and white, and the solutions are never simple. You can help vulnerable groups by expanding opportunity, easing poverty, and offering real choice. But it will always be a choice, and it's not for anyone to judge but the people involved.
Started HRT in October, 2014. Orchiectomy in August, 2015. Full-time in July, 2016!

If you need an understanding ear, feel free to PM me.
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GhostTown11

I think cis women have had it worse, for longer, and that mtf's mostly contribute to being used in the sex industry as to where that's not always the case with cis women.
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Julie Wilson

Quote from: Adam1 on July 04, 2012, 09:42:58 PM
I think cis women have had it worse, for longer, and that mtf's mostly contribute to being used in the sex industry as to where that's not always the case with cis women.


Wat?  O_O

Um...  women have the freedom to sell themselves into porn or prostitution all day, every day and yet they are never objectified in the same way that M2Fs are because consumers and cis people don't see women as being men.

But consumers do tend to see M2Fs as men and porn seems to solidify it for them, that M2Fs are really just men.  Men have said (often) that they are into M2Fs because M2Fs are men, like the same things as men, have the same sex-drive as men, that M2Fs aren't over-sensitive like women, are easier to get along with, relate to, know how to give the best head because they know what they would like when receiving fellatio (oral sex on a penis).

I have been objectified as a female and it felt way better than being objectified as a M2F.  Being objectified as a M2F equaled being seen as a man in a girl suit.

People will sell their bodies as long as they can in whatever manner is available for them to do so. 

In varying degrees a M2F is a male who transitions to female.  Some of us act a lot more male than others and really it is a curse of our biology.  Cissexual people believe that a man is a man because he is born male.  Lots of Cissexual people believe that a M2F is a man who wants to be a woman.  There is some truth to their belief (in varying degrees).  I know that a lot of us who transition tend to have a much more male sex-drive.  I know I was guilty of it.  I also talked about sex a lot more than a woman would have, talked about sex and how it was affected by HRT.  Talked about sex after SRS.  To most Cissexual people, my talking about those things was proof that I am and will always be a man who wants to be a woman.

But what most Cis people don't realize and will never understand is that I never wanted to be a female.  Somehow I always just was and the only way I could be normal and enjoy life was to transition to female.  My body was at odds with my being and that created a life that was at odds with my essence.  And if I could have just been normal I most certainly would have just been normal I would have taken medication or had surgery to be normal because that was all I wanted.  I just wanted to feel right and to be able to successfully interact with other people as myself.

But instead a cosmic joke was played upon me when I was born.  And since beginning transition in 2000 the one thing I have learned (if anything) is to never seek acceptance.  Not from Cis people, not from trans people.  Not from anyone.  Given the opportunity no one will give you a fair shake.  Given the opportunity no one will recognize you for who and what you are.  I can't transition other people.  I can't change how other people think about me in their minds.  So for me transition will be about never giving anyone the opportunity to judge me as something other than what I am.

It doesn't matter what any M2F does, whether she sells herself in the porn industry or whatever...  People will never be able to accept trans men and women on any legitimate level.  People may be nice and people may try, but human beings cannot understand what they cannot feel.  And we will always be a conundrum to them, one that they think they understand when in reality they haven't got a clue.  And we are all different.  Will I ever meet another trans woman who is really like me?  And even if I did meet her, would I still be able to relate to her a week from now or her to me for that matter, a week from now, a month from now?

I am so tired of trying to be what I am that I have given up on it.  So I won't try to be me anymore.  Instead I will just be.  And I won't ever seek the friendship of another trans woman because I realize how wrong that is now, to seek friendship because of a belief that we share common ground when the reality is that we are all different and a condition doesn't make for any kind of unity.

I think I am finally growing past this thing

And in case you don't understand what I am saying, even M2Fs when they are early in transition tend to think of "stealth" as a dirty lie, as deception.  Deceiving men or other people into thinking we are women.  What does that say about us?  That even we ourselves don't believe we are women?  We like to say we are women but it tends to be a response to not being accepted as women.  A way to protest.  Instead of that if we really consider ourselves to be women...  Well...  I intend to put my money where my mouth is.

I'm done with the games.  It's time to move forward again.
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