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Maintenance Dose

Started by Arch, August 08, 2012, 07:21:17 PM

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Arch

I know that most guys here are either pre-T or early in transition, so I don't expect to get a lot of replies. Or maybe none at all! But I'll take what I can get.

The place where I get my hormones is very aggressive about putting guys on a greatly reduced "maintenance dose" as soon as possible. They don't seem to care how masculinized you are or whether you have preexisting mental health conditions that can/will be affected by a greatly reduced dose. Also, they are also pretty militant about blood levels and are alarmed at blood levels that my regular doctor considers to be within the higher normal range. For example, my regular doctor (and his colleague, who responded independently) is unconcerned about my hematocrit, but the clinic docs are ranting about strokes and heart attacks. Needless to say, I am annoyed by what seems like pointless scaremongering.

I have depression and have found a reduced dose that seems to keep me mentally healthy, but the clinic is insisting that I go down to half of the dose that I originally started at. I resist for three reasons: one, my depression seems to be aggravated when I go down below a certain level. Two, they are using my hematocrit as a further excuse, but two doctors outside the clinic say that my hematocrit is fine. Three, I am still quite early in transition and don't want my changes to slow down drastically. I am still getting minor vocal shifts, my beard is not full enough or coarse enough, and my body hair still has a long way to go. In addition, I'm finding it much harder to maintain my weight now, let alone lose the last few pounds I want to get rid of. But I'm mostly worried about my state of mind.

I am currently negotiating my dose with the clinic docs. I am now at about 70% of the dose I was originally getting, but I feel much better at 80% or a little lower. The doctors want me at 50%, but that is a huge reduction. I have gone as low as 60% in an attempt to keep the doctors happy, but my mood dipped quite a lot, and I am still trying to recover from that.

I might have to start seeing my regular endo again, but that costs so much more. Still, I might have little choice if the clinic is not willing to factor my depression into the equation. They seem to think that I'm better off with lower T and antidepressants. I don't want to go back on antidepressants, but they are pressuring me.

Obviously, I cannot ask about specific dosages here. But if you are on a maintenance dose, I would like to know whether you have had oophorectomy, at what stage you started the lower dose, whose idea it was (were you forced to reduce?), and how it affects you. I'm especially interested if you have mental health issues. I know that everyone is different, but I'm just trying to get a feel for what other guys are experiencing.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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wheat thins are delicious

I don't have any advice or anything, but the blood levels, isn't that something that could be fixed by donating blood regularly?


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Arch

Great idea, except that I refuse to donate blood now. At first, I thought I couldn't donate because I tried to donate back at the height of the AIDS crisis, and I was rejected because of my sexual history. But I recently found out that they would only bar me for one year for those ancient sexual escapades, so that changed things...except that I am legally male now. I decided that since I had had sex AS a female back then, I shouldn't be excluded even if I was living as a man now. My assessment was apparently correct, and I won't be barred for my sexual history anymore.

But I have been taking finasteride, and that med is on their banned substance list. I stopped taking the med for a little while so that I could donate. I figured I might be able to do that a few times a year, anyway--but not often enough to get the maximum benefit from donating.

However, the blood bank will not code me as male in their system because I have not had bottom surgery. When I went to donate, I was subjected to an awkward and humiliating experience. I will not do that again. They claim that they are just following Red Cross guidelines, but I see no earthly reason to code me as female. Apparently, if I actually DO have sex anytime soon, I will not face a lifetime ban, no matter who my partner is. The only logical conclusion I have been able to make is that they are stupidly assuming one of two things: (1) as long as I have a front hole, I will only be penetrated there by straight or bisexual men--which means, best case, I can donate right away, and, worst case, I can donate in a year. Even if I have anal sex, the worst ban I will apparently face is a year...which means they must also be assuming that (2) if I ever DO have anal sex, it will be with a straight man.

I am a gay man. If I do have penetrative sex, I will NEVER use the front hole again, and I will NEVER have sex with a straight man. I will have anal sex with gay men. This puts me in the highest-risk category, doesn't it? Yet the blood bank won't issue the lifetime ban on someone like me--the worst they will do is bar me for one year because they consider me female.

I would rather they reject me for being a gay man than accept me for being a straight woman that I'm not. And I do not care to repeat the experience of having two people publicly arguing over what my sex is (that's what happened last time). They can kiss my hairy male ass.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Cindy

Hi Arch,

Take this as it comes, it is opinion and not a medical consult :) and it is not meant to be insulting in any way. Are your clinic medics concerned that your heamatocrit is high for a male or a female? They should be judging it against the male NR and not the female.  Do you have high iron levels? If not a raised heamatocrit means little, as long as your other blood targets are normal, MCV etc.

Do you have a family history of haemochromatosis?

There seems to be a fairly poor medical work up and some of your medics are jumping at shadows rather than doing a proper in depth analysis of your condition.

I have no idea of the US health system details but can you get a letter from your regular family Doc that in their opinion there is nothing wrong with you blood tests and no reason to change your T levels.

Cinddy


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Arch

I am far from happy with the clinic. They have made mistakes with me on almost every visit. They logged me as a smoker on my first visit, and we had barely been introduced when the first doctor told me, "Well, you realize, of course, that we don't prescribe hormones to smokers..." They also insisted on a mammogram, even though I made it clear that I am post-op. I couldn't get the mammo, and the next clinic doctor told me I didn't need mammos anymore. Who knows what the next doctor will say? The last doctor--I have seen her a couple of times now--told me to get mood stabilizers from my therapist. When I reiterated that he is NOT a medical doctor and cannot prescribe, she said, "Ask him anyway." (???)

I have other reasons not to trust this clinic. They tell people with serious mood disorders to cut their T dose in half OVERNIGHT. They did this to me--I have clinical depression and made it clear that I was just going into my winter depression mode at the time. They didn't care. This year, they told my buddy to cut his dose in half, and he's bipolar and was in the mental hospital six or eight months previously for feeling suicidal. Now they're strongarming him because he hasn't had a gyno visit in two years. They make him go every two years, but they make me go every year. If anything, it should be the other way around.

They also don't like to give us copies of our lab results. They did a fairly comprehensive blood workup on my first visit a year ago. They never sent me the results, so I asked for a copy when I went back for the follow-up. The doctor I saw seemed a bit startled but agreed to "sneak" me photocopies and told me they are not supposed to do that. It could be a cost-cutting measure, but it also gives them total control over my information and puts me in the dark. I am tired of playing this game. Next week, I plan to just show up without an appointment and tell them I need copies of all of my labs and find out how to get them. If they refer me to the records department, fine. But the clinic must release the records upon request.

The clinic appears to use a different range of values than my regular doctor uses, but I'm confused about how it all works. Their range for hematocrit is 35-47, and that looks like a female range to me. However, I'm not a medical professional. Anyway, they've been after me about this since I started going there. I believe my regular doctor said that he won't be concerned unless I go above 52, and his colleague stated that number as an upper limit. I stupidly didn't ask whether that was for men or women, but (in any case), it's well above the range used by the clinic. Of course, this is the same clinic that refuses to code me as male. All the FTMs are coded as "FM," and that goes on all of the prescriptions unless you force them to handwrite the prescription--and that's what I now do. I'm about to report them to the Transgender Law Center for outing people to the pharmacies, but I want to see if the doctor passed along my gentle suggestion that the clinic should never use preprinted labels (with FM and MF clearly marked on them) for prescriptions. I doubt that they have changed their procedure, though.

Nobody at the clinic has said anything about iron or anything else--it's pretty much just cholesterol and hematocrit. I have no family history of hemochromatosis that I know of, and I haven't been diagnosed with hemochromatosis.

To get a letter from my regular doctor, I would have to pay for an office visit, and I'm convinced that they won't be impressed by what he has to say anyway. They have their guidelines, and they plan to stick to them. If I thought I could trust them, I would place more weight on their opinion.

Sorry for the rant, but I've just about had it with these yahoos. I'm almost ready to go back to my old endocrinologist, no matter how much it costs. I do have the money right now, but who knows where I'll be financially in a year or two?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Jeatyn

I wish I had some advice to give Arch but I just want to offer my sympathy. It's hard to argue with medical professionals even if you KNOW you are right. It's such a shame that these people just can't get over all their guidelines and protocols to actually listen to their patients as individuals.
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Robert Scott

I asked my doctor when my dosage would be reduced...she said she doesn't reduce the T unless the T levels get too high - out of normal range or if I have a hysto
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Jared

Hey Arch, I'm not on T yet and it's gonna be a bit out of topic but I also took pills against depression, and then I stopped after a year. It's around a month that I'm not taking them and it seems like I can't handle this situation well enough, you know waiting for getting T, seeing doctors and the other stuff that goes with the transition. I feel I could handle it better when I was on the pills. Maybe I've should wait for stopping it. Does anyone have/had this experience?
Anyway I know how hard is to reduce the dose of these pills, and I'm thinking of starting to take a lower dose than I used to nevertheless I don't want to but it's clear I need it  :-\ If you feel better with higher dose than take it, you know how bad you feel not the doctors. Wish you the best!
If you want to achieve greatness, stop asking for permission.







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Arch

I am lucky that I can at least consider other options, and, after much thought, I've decided to book an appointment with my old endo sometime later this year. He seems willing to tailor treatment to the individual, and I don't want the clinic to force me into a too-low dose that might seriously hurt me. And I'm tired of their mistakes and strongarm tactics.

This clinic has been known to get very tightfisted with prescriptions, even threatening to refuse a refill if they think you've done something wrong. They also seem very suspicious if you run out just a tad early--my friend came up a little short once, about half a dose, and they accused him of pumping up his dose (or doing something else with his dose--I think we can guess what they meant). We all know that it can be tricky to get an exact measurement, and there's always just a little T left in the vial that you can't quite get.

Fortunately, the doc I've seen the last couple of times has said it's okay for me to experiment with the dose, taper slowly, and so forth, but I think she's saying that because she knows I won't just cut the dose willy-nilly. So I have her permission to play with the dose, but I'm pretty sure she won't let me get away with that for much longer.

To Jared: I strongly suggest that you have a frank discussion with your doctor about your difficulty in coping. If you have a lot of trans-related anxiety, he or she might well suggest that you go back on the meds. I hated going on antidepressants back in the day, and it took me years to admit that I was getting worse and worse, but I'm glad I finally caved. The meds helped me to hold things together. But now I think I can manage without them, and I've made great progress. Still, everyone's different. So talk to your doc.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Arch

P.S. I knew I wasn't happy with this clinic, but I didn't realize how deeply angry I was until today. They have a captive audience, so to speak, and they know it and seem to take advantage and throw their weight around. I can't abide organizations that trample on the little guy, and most of the trans people who use this clinic are disenfranchised, poorly educated, and low income. I might be able to seek greener pastures, but what can THEY do? I guess most of them don't know what it's like to have responsive doctors and reasonably individualized health care, so they don't know anything else.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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anibioman

i would insits on them not lowering your dose as long as you are within the norm. my doctor is kinda the opposite he is happy with me being at the high end of the normal range because its good for me psychologically and he wants to emulate natural puberty.

Robert Scott

Ya it seems strange to me ... I was right in the middle of normal range and I didn't feel like I was having much changes and my doctor increased my dosage.  I have been having changes -- get my blood tested in a couple weeks.

Like I said before my doc said no point in decreasing unless it's too high or you have had bottom surgery.  She said it takes 2-5 years to get the full effects so no point of decreasing unless I have problems.
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Jared

My doc told me to go back on the meds and I'll do so but it just took me time to admit that she's right. I'm happy that you can go on without them  :)
If you want to achieve greatness, stop asking for permission.







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Arch

Quote from: Jared on August 10, 2012, 01:18:06 PM
My doc told me to go back on the meds and I'll do so but it just took me time to admit that she's right. I'm happy that you can go on without them  :)

It's tough, and I'm not sure how long I'll keep seeing improvement in my ability to cope. But I figure that as long as I'm getting better at dealing with my depression, I owe it to myself to soldier on and see how well I can do. Perhaps someday I won't even be depressed anymore--after I sort out some of my remaining issues and have bottom surgery, maybe. (One can hope.)

I have to say, though, going through all of this is hard enough without dragging pride or stubbornness into the mix. I mean, you need a certain amount of stubbornness to survive, but you have to be realistic about your mental state. It might feel like a failing, to go back on the meds, but it isn't. The bottom line is that this is not easy for very many of us, and you have to take care of yourself.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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MrTesto

Wow, a lot of that sounds just...bizarre to me. They can't compel you to take antidepressants as a substitute for part of your T dose. And even more clearly, in implying to you that they are "sneaking" a copy of your medical records, and doing you a favor, they are coming close to a violation of your rights as a patient under HIPAA. Here is a link: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/consumers/medicalrecords.html  You have the right to get a copy of your medical records, as well as billing and insurance coding. They may charge you for the copy, but cannot withhold your records if you have an outstanding bill. Records of mental health therapy treatments are not automatically available to you, but if a therapist is declining to give you your records, they need to have a reason that is clinically relevant.

Sorry if that was boring, but the tl;dr is that they were jerking you around about a copy of your lab values. If you are going to transfer care to your old dr, have him request the records (you'll need to sign a request). In that case, I haven't heard of a patient being charged for the copies.   
 
I concur with you about getting your scrip from someone who has a more mainstream treatment protocol. The optimal dose is going to vary, and mood is a factor in that. Even if you have to save up to go back to your old endo, if your mood and energy is better, that sounds worth saving up for. If you have a PCP who is amenable, they can also prescribe T. You don't have to keep getting it from an endo.

A quick note about post-oopho dosing tweaks: It is not correct that everyone who has his oopho can lower his dose of T. If an FTM had a condition like PCOS (or other reasons for hyperandrogenism) prior to starting testosterone, he might actually need to increase his dose after his oopho. That's another strong reason to get bloodwork as a baseline before going on T, if you can manage it. It's more information about your own body.
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Jared

Quote from: Arch on August 10, 2012, 07:37:18 PM
It might feel like a failing, to go back on the meds, but it isn't.

That's exactly the reason why I didn't want to go back. But I'm still not at the part where I can stop, I just thought . Maybe some time later  :) Good luck to your hopes!
If you want to achieve greatness, stop asking for permission.







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Felix

This sounds really frustrating and dehumanizing. I have serious mental health issues and they improved dramatically when I started T. I was a smoker and didn't really quit until I got testosterone, and I was underweight until then as well. When my doctor does labwork, she always mails or emails me the results with a sentence or two about whether they're okay. I don't understand why there would be so much gatekeeping and pettiness once you already have a GID diagnosis and have begun transition.

Honestly my veganism seems to affect my lab values more than hrt, but that's another topic.

I've been unreliable with getting on the computer/checking Susan's this summer, so feel free to PM or email me if you want to discuss any of this further. I've only been on T since December and the interplay between it and pre-existing mental health stuff is not to be taken lightly.
everybody's house is haunted
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DRAIN

arch, i could have written this myself. the clinic i use started me on an EXTREMELY low dose, lower than anyone else that goes there, and i've had to fight every time to go up even though my bloodwork has been fine. they don't test T levels becausse of funding issues, but i don't pass almot 2 years on T so i know something is up. this past time i went for a refill and gently suggested they up my dose again to what i understand to be an "average" maintenance dose, and the doc had to "see what the max i cant give you is" really? you've been doing this how long and you don't know? i could google it in 5 seconds!

and like your experience, if they believe you;re not following procedure they can kick you out of the program with no recourse that i know of. i could go on, but you get the idea.

as for T and mental health - when i was on the lowest dose, i was a miserable wreck. to ask someone to go from a rather natural treatment for mental health issues to depending on a drug that could cause dependency and who knows what else is completely rediculous.
-=geboren um zu leben=-



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Arch

I really hate the veiled (and not-so-veiled) accusations aimed at my friend--that he must be upping his dose or selling his T. They keep him on a super-short leash, I think because he is poor and black.

I hate the veiled and not-so-veiled threats that if you don't see the gyno every year (or every two years; they can't even get their story straight from one guy to the next) or get a mammo, they will cut you off.

I hate their one-size-fits-all approach to this maintenance dose issue. They don't seem to care how it affects my mental health--or my friend's. He is bipolar, and they also told him to cut his dose in half overnight. Really? You think this is a good practice?

I hate that they won't code us as male, even if all of our documentation has been changed. They don't even care if you've had bottom surgery. And they put this weird "FM" code on our prescriptions.

I hate that they code us as female for blood work. I have three pages of lab reports from last June, and they all have me as "F."  That's not even accurate.

I hate that I've had six visits and have seen four different doctors. One of them shouts at people as if they're hard of hearing, and the doctor I've seen recently is from another planet. I've seen her three times, and only one of our conversations has made complete sense.

I've given this clinic a fair shot, and I'm not impressed. After my next visit, I guess I'll be seeing my endo again.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Arch

Thanks for writing, DRAIN. I'm not sure why some docs/clinics start people on insanely low doses--if your innards are still a going concern, then the T won't necessarily put a stop to that, and low T translates to irritability, fatigue, and depression.

So...DID they ever raise your dose this last visit?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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