should people under 18 be allowed top surgery?

[anibioman]

i think surgery is a necessity for many people under 18 but i do believe real life experience should be required.

[Natkat]

Before answering I will say thanks for all the replyes,
I will just point out that I will not adress anyone alittle below 18 as "kids" or "children"
kids in my dictionary is people below, and just in start of puberty ( like 4 or 11), when your are ex. 15 years old. your a "teen"
so thats how I will adress them.

So you could have a kid who has been out since age 6 or even earlier. I *think* , though I am not sure, that if the kid is taking hormone blockers they won't need top surgery

one of my friends have talked with a woman and her daughter is transexual (4 years old) so yeah age can be early but sure homones isnt giving in every country, and for those places who do I heard it to first be around the puberty age.
---

The only difference would be if it was an actual medical life/death situation.

this is confussing me,
your agenst surgery on people less than 18, But I have just been giving a clear exemple of how it can be medical life/death situation to wait, and still your agenst..?

Your generally agenst it because of the fab" thing, some teens could think its cool,
I guess this must be something cultural because I dont know many people here who would transition to be "cool"
yes I must admit in certain comuneties the trans thing have been very out so people have been kinda trans acting, but I never heard anyone who got serious about it saying they would transition, most people look down on trans not as anything cool, but as something wierd so I guess thats the simple explenation.

I understand your phrase of the teen thing, I have also had phrases, being very religious, dressing as a street kid, and the nerdy type.. But my gender identety have been the same even when I have tried to be very maculine and more femenine, in general gender identety is something who is proved to be found very early and before the teen years, but sure we are not all wellknowed or ready that time, it depends for each of us.

I agree with conformer that there should be some kind of safety, so people dosent just jump right into transition without serious thought, You should first be sure, and been looking into it to know what your doing and how it will infect you, (because it will) after that you can start. no matter if your 14 or if your 30 you will have to know that.

so generally im not saying "every" person under 18 should transition because some arnt ready like some who is 18+ arnt ready, and you should first transition when your ready.
what im saying is it should be posible for people below 18 who is ready to take that step, because theres no logic in waiting if your ready, and it will just cause harm.
---
funny thing for mature level, it again depends on age, I know people very imature who is 40 and people very mature below the age of 18. Being mature isnt nessesarry a matter of age, however age sure help at some point but mental age and biological age isnt always the same.

I actually feel alot the young transfolks who transition are pretty mature of there age. the trans experience we go though are some experince who makes us more mature of our age I belive, because we get into some situation normal teens dont experience + we have to look up for more adulish topics like medicin, insurance, so on so on...

I was told my my teacher the reason I couldnt relate that much to my classmates was because I got experience in my life from another level than they had, I knew he was refering to my trans status, because in general I am pretty childlish on some levels, but on the trans knowlegde I got some knowlegde who are beyond people at my age.
--

[AdamMLP]

I don't think it's offensive at all to think that 13 year olds will go through phases of life.

1. I was 13. I still remember it vividly. Everything I wanted to do back is drastically different today.
2. I've been a children's pastor and counselor for children ages 8 through 17. From a clinical and counseling point of view I have seen more children who change on a whim than those who literally stayed the same throughout their teen into early adult life.
3. Having been involved in the trans community for about 4 years, i have encountered and talked with many teen transgenders. It would be conservative to say that about half of them are still "transgender."
4. I have a 13 year old son. Sorry, if he wanted surgery that wasn't life threatening I would say no. I wouldn't think twice about it. He goes through phases just like any other 13 year old and I will not test fate on surgery at that age...especially since it's permanent.

It's ok that you are offended and a lot of younger people do get offended...but as adults, we have been there before.

I don't think anyone would consider surgery like that for a 13 year old really, and wasn't suggesting that someone that young knows who they are enough to make that sort of decision about their future, maybe giving them the option of hormone blockers and living as male would be the appropriate steps to take in the case of a 13 year old.  But with someone my age, or someone 15-17 years old and mature I'd say that they should definitely be able to have it if they understand the full ramifications of it.  Or maybe I'm just saying that because of the people I know because I don't know many people who have been through "phases" like that, other than two people who perpetually lie and in their cases it's so obvious that you'd never consider letting them have life changing surgery.

[RagingShadow]

as much as i would've liked surgery at 13, i wasn't ready for it. emotionaly or RLE wise.
had surgery after 1/2 year of male at home female at school, and a year of male at home and female at school with blockers, then another year of male full time with hormones before I had surgery (i sophomore in high school) and the surgeon agreed because of parental support, a letter from my shrink of 3 years and a letter from my endo who is one of the blocker pioneers.

[Sly]

I'm iffy about this, since teenage years tend to be a really confusing time and they may end up changing their mind.  I do think hormone blockers should be perfectly OK though, since if they do change their mind they can just stop taking them.  If it's going as far as being suicidal or self-harm, though, then maybe surgery should be an option.

[mangoslayer]

I'd just like to point out that it's not as easy to get blockers as you guys seem to think. FTM hormone blockers are horribly expensive, are rarely covered by insurance, and hard to get your hands on. I'm not sure about the MTF equivilant, but for FTMs blockers arent always an option. Plus they won't do much after say 13-14. I don't think anyone believes a 13 year old should be getting top surgery, but it should be an option for those who are 15-17 and capable of making the proper decision.

[Anon]

Yes, it should be allowed. Binding is painful and can cause health concerns in growing youth. As long as the individual has completed all the previous steps of transition (diagnosis, therapy, HRT for most) then it only makes sense for surgery to be allowed soon afterwards.

Forcing otherwise fully-transitioned boys to wait for years for chest surgery is completely ridiculous. Besides, T already changes the body permanently in more ways than one surgery would.

[Ayden]

---this is confussing me,
your agenst surgery on people less than 18, But I have just been giving a clear exemple of how it can be medical life/death situation to wait, and still your agenst..?

Yes, I am against it. I am against medical procedures done on children unless they are actually life threatening. (i.e. surgery now or they die.) But, I'll explain.

I knew that I identified as male when I was, man, like 12. Before then, I never really thought of gender at all. It wasn't until I my first brother was born. So, yes, I know how hard it is to identify one way and watch your body go in the other direction. I'm not discounting anyone's frustration during puberty, especially trans youth. I'm not saying "You're under 18 so you don't know". I'm saying I understand, but waiting isn't life or death. If a teen is suicidal they need therapy first and foremost. Anyone who is suicidal needs therapy or counseling. Yes my teen years were awful as far as my gender identity went. It would be hypocritical of me to say that teens and kids can't know. But, I wasn't suicidal. No matter what way I turn it around in my head, I cannot say "okay, this kid is depressed, surgery will fix it." It won't. If someone is at the point of suicide, they need help of a different kind. No matter how depressed I was, I still can't see how my gender issues were life or death. Even taking into account the physical abuse and pain I put myself through, it wasn't life or death. But, it could be because gender issues were the least of my concerns as far as problems. I was raising three kids, had a mother who was bouncing from one drug induced high to the next and a father who was overworked, over stressed and took it out on me in the form of emotional tirades and unrealistic expectations of what a 13 year old could do. If I had ever been suicidal, the reasons would have come from something like my mother locking me in the garage all night when it was -20F outside and telling me to freeze to death, or a number of any incidents that come to mind.

I'll use an example (inperfect, but bear with me). Take a kid/teen who has been overweight. Not a little pudgy, but obese. My cousin is in this situation and my childhood friend was, so I have seen what it can do. So, take this teen who is depressed because they don't like how they look, they get teased, don't fit in, are not comfortable with their bodies. Should the parents get the kid lipo suction because they are depressed or may be suicidal? No. Absolutely not. They should put the kid in therapy and help the kid to lose weight. You know why? Because yes, lipo will superficially help them but those mental and emotional problems will still remain. Now, flip it on its head and take my childhood friend - I love her like my sister and I would do anything for her. She went the opposite way and ended up being 5'8 and 89 pounds, but the emotional problems still stayed. You want someone on the verge of suicide - she nearly succeeded, all she needed was 15 more minutes. She was lucky her father got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. She was in the hospital for a week and then committed. She struggles every day with her body issues and I'm proud of her for being 110 pounds at this point. But it has taken years of her working out her problems because at the end of the day, no matter what she looked like, the emotional problems remained.  **With my husband's permission, I will use him as an example too. He is thin. Too thin, and he knows it.  But he looks in the mirror and he sees someone who is seriously overweight. He is thin enough that he dropped 30 pounds (off of a healthy weight for a man his size) in 6 weeks that we were apart and still sees someone who is overweight, and still wants to lose more. The difference is, he knows its in his head. However, he has said before its a good thing he can't get lipo suction to get rid of the 8% body fat he has. It wouldn't help him. In his head he would still have those problems. Lastly, to use myself: The gender thing is in my head. Nothing will change the fact that I am trans. I was born female, no matter when I get my surgery or the fact that I am on hormones, I will still have XX chromosomes. I have learned to be okay with that. I want to transition. But transition itself wouldn't give me peace of mind without coming to terms with that. Its not a problem that can be fixed with physical changes, period. It come from the mind first and foremost.

No amount of cosmetic surgery will help the mental issues and if anyone is at the verge of suicide, its not a physical problem no matter what you say. Suicide goes against every single instinct we have as living creatures, so to go that far requires serious emotional disturbances. I've seen someone of the verge of suicide and I can honestly say you have to be pretty far gone to get there - if you are at that point, please get professional help, now.

It's ok that you are offended and a lot of younger people do get offended...but as adults, we have been there before.

.

^Pretty much this. On the maturity level, I'll put it this way: Age does NOT equal maturity. I have met people older than me who got butt hurt over someone they would never meet disagreeing with them, which is frankly as silly as me getting upset that some of you don't agree with me. However, thinking about "complex" or "mature" subjects doesn't make you mature either. You can think about things like politics, gender (insert topic of your choice) but that does not equal maturity. IQ does not equal being wise. Maturity comes from life experiences, and life experiences give wisdom. Believe me - I'm not wise or mature in a lot of ways. I am a total kid in some ways, because I haven't had the life experience. I'll be the first to say that I'm pretty sure Miss Annah could throw me down in a wisdom contest. I'm cool with that. I see it as a chance to learn from others experiences and let them give me advice. There is a reason I still ask my grandparents for advice - because they have been there. They know from experience and have gained wisdom. My grandparents have forgotten more than I will ever know, and thats just a fact. Part of being "mature" is realizing that others know more than you and have more experience. I remember being a teenager, it wasn't that long ago. You don't magically forget being a teen when you turn 20 or something. I thought I knew everything and I wouldn't let anyone tell me otherwise. But as I have gotten older, I realize that I don't know a damned thing and thinking about my own arrogance back then makes me laugh now.

So, I am coming at it from a different place than a lot of folks. But, I also understand that most people on this board are young - younger than me even and I'm only in my mid 20s. You can disagree with me but I've been there guys, and my view won't change. Point is, being a teenager sucks for everyone regardless of gender issues, but not every kid offs themselves. If someone is suicidal, mental health needs to be addressed.

*** Edit was added with permission.

[TwoSpirit]

I am all for guys getting their surgery as soon as possible, even those under 18. If the appropriate counseling has been done, and the young person has supports, I think it makes it easier the sooner you do it, then you won't have to spend ten years binding everyday, as I did.

Though certainly more life changing then a nose job, they do those on people as young as 15. And some see that as life saving, because people with big or differently shaped noses can be teased relentlessly, and end up on the final side of suicide. Kids can be really hurtful and especially in this internet age, they can make those who are self conscience about their appearance, a living nightmare, and actually drive them to suicide. So, as jealous as I am that I never got to have the evil twins removed much earlier, and am only doing it in my late 40s, I would wish a better life for the younger ones, and I think that includes sparing them the agony of living with chest growths for longer than they should.

There's a surgeon I know who is seeing more and more under 18s, come in with their parents full support, which is great. Chances are, the scars will fade much better on younger skin.

So, with appropriate counseling, yes......absolutely, I support under 18s getting top surgery. At that age, they have a better chance of getting a less invasive surgery, such as the peri.

[aleon515]

I'd just like to point out that it's not as easy to get blockers as you guys seem to think. FTM hormone blockers are horribly expensive, are rarely covered by insurance, and hard to get your hands on. I'm not sure about the MTF equivilant, but for FTMs blockers arent always an option. Plus they won't do much after say 13-14. I don't think anyone believes a 13 year old should be getting top surgery, but it should be an option for those who are 15-17 and capable of making the proper decision.

It is VERY expensive. I think they are in the many thousands a year. Sometimes insurance covers and sometimes not. Some kids won't tolerate the side effects.

@Ayden, yes I htink in the case of younger guys it is going to need to be with parent approval/workign together with doctors. I don't think a doctor would work on a very underaged person otherwise. I think actually we are talking about a little window in there. I don't think any doctor would do this in a person younger than 15-16. Maybe there are exceptions. There are some mtf kids who had SRS maybe at 16.

--Jay Jay

[Natkat]

Yes, I am against it. I am against medical procedures done on children unless they are actually life threatening. (i.e. surgery now or they die.) But, I'll explain.

I knew that I identified as male when I was, man, like 12. Before then, I never really thought of gender at all. It wasn't until I my first brother was born. So, yes, I know how hard it is to identify one way and watch your body go in the other direction. I'm not discounting anyone's frustration during puberty, especially trans youth. I'm not saying "You're under 18 so you don't know". I'm saying I understand, but waiting isn't life or death. If a teen is suicidal they need therapy first and foremost. Anyone who is suicidal needs therapy or counseling. Yes my teen years were awful as far as my gender identity went. It would be hypocritical of me to say that teens and kids can't know. But, I wasn't suicidal. No matter what way I turn it around in my head, I cannot say "okay, this kid is depressed, surgery will fix it." It won't. If someone is at the point of suicide, they need help of a different kind. No matter how depressed I was, I still can't see how my gender issues were life or death. Even taking into account the physical abuse and pain I put myself through, it wasn't life or death. But, it could be because gender issues were the least of my concerns as far as problems. I was raising three kids, had a mother who was bouncing from one drug induced high to the next and a father who was overworked, over stressed and took it out on me in the form of emotional tirades and unrealistic expectations of what a 13 year old could do. If I had ever been suicidal, the reasons would have come from something like my mother locking me in the garage all night when it was -20F outside and telling me to freeze to death, or a number of any incidents that come to mind.

I'll use an example (inperfect, but bear with me). Take a kid/teen who has been overweight. Not a little pudgy, but obese. My cousin is in this situation and my childhood friend was, so I have seen what it can do. So, take this teen who is depressed because they don't like how they look, they get teased, don't fit in, are not comfortable with their bodies. Should the parents get the kid lipo suction because they are depressed or may be suicidal? No. Absolutely not. They should put the kid in therapy and help the kid to lose weight. You know why? Because yes, lipo will superficially help them but those mental and emotional problems will still remain. Now, flip it on its head and take my childhood friend - I love her like my sister and I would do anything for her. She went the opposite way and ended up being 5'8 and 89 pounds, but the emotional problems still stayed. You want someone on the verge of suicide - she nearly succeeded, all she needed was 15 more minutes. She was lucky her father got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. She was in the hospital for a week and then committed. She struggles every day with her body issues and I'm proud of her for being 110 pounds at this point. But it has taken years of her working out her problems because at the end of the day, no matter what she looked like, the emotional problems remained.  **With my husband's permission, I will use him as an example too. He is thin. Too thin, and he knows it.  But he looks in the mirror and he sees someone who is seriously overweight. He is thin enough that he dropped 30 pounds (off of a healthy weight for a man his size) in 6 weeks that we were apart and still sees someone who is overweight, and still wants to lose more. The difference is, he knows its in his head. However, he has said before its a good thing he can't get lipo suction to get rid of the 8% body fat he has. It wouldn't help him. In his head he would still have those problems. Lastly, to use myself: The gender thing is in my head. Nothing will change the fact that I am trans. I was born female, no matter when I get my surgery or the fact that I am on hormones, I will still have XX chromosomes. I have learned to be okay with that. I want to transition. But transition itself wouldn't give me peace of mind without coming to terms with that. Its not a problem that can be fixed with physical changes, period. It come from the mind first and foremost.

No amount of cosmetic surgery will help the mental issues and if anyone is at the verge of suicide, its not a physical problem no matter what you say. Suicide goes against every single instinct we have as living creatures, so to go that far requires serious emotional disturbances. I've seen someone of the verge of suicide and I can honestly say you have to be pretty far gone to get there - if you are at that point, please get professional help, now.
.

^Pretty much this. On the maturity level, I'll put it this way: Age does NOT equal maturity. I have met people older than me who got butt hurt over someone they would never meet disagreeing with them, which is frankly as silly as me getting upset that some of you don't agree with me. However, thinking about "complex" or "mature" subjects doesn't make you mature either. You can think about things like politics, gender (insert topic of your choice) but that does not equal maturity. IQ does not equal being wise. Maturity comes from life experiences, and life experiences give wisdom. Believe me - I'm not wise or mature in a lot of ways. I am a total kid in some ways, because I haven't had the life experience. I'll be the first to say that I'm pretty sure Miss Annah could throw me down in a wisdom contest. I'm cool with that. I see it as a chance to learn from others experiences and let them give me advice. There is a reason I still ask my grandparents for advice - because they have been there. They know from experience and have gained wisdom. My grandparents have forgotten more than I will ever know, and thats just a fact. Part of being "mature" is realizing that others know more than you and have more experience. I remember being a teenager, it wasn't that long ago. You don't magically forget being a teen when you turn 20 or something. I thought I knew everything and I wouldn't let anyone tell me otherwise. But as I have gotten older, I realize that I don't know a damned thing and thinking about my own arrogance back then makes me laugh now.

So, I am coming at it from a different place than a lot of folks. But, I also understand that most people on this board are young - younger than me even and I'm only in my mid 20s. You can disagree with me but I've been there guys, and my view won't change. Point is, being a teenager sucks for everyone regardless of gender issues, but not every kid offs themselves. If someone is suicidal, mental health needs to be addressed.

*** Edit was added with permission.

So okay, your agenst all surgerys unless there life threatning.. fine..
and suicide isnt life threatned because you need help..

just going to point out something, this is not only mentall and emotian, its also infect the body.
if you binds for many years, for body will get damaged, not from one day to another but over a time, and even if you dont bind it can be unhealthy, it was almost more unhealthy for me not to bind because I wore so much thick close to hide my body and bended myself over, so I got back pain and heatstoke from it.
and even not for binding or in any way hidding away with thick clothes or bended back, I would be very afraid of getting near people. easly getting very agressive and anti social.

I do agree that surgery shouldnt just be done, but I do not agree you should be on your limit to die to get them.
if your in pain, I belive surgery should be an option, and having a choice between being deep depressed or not being able to breath, is as I see it, being in pain, and even life threathed in worst caise.

so I dont agree..

also no matter how you can get help, people cant cure being trans as it wont infect you.
you can be trans and be happy about your body, but theres also many people who wasnt and never will be, and even the most perfect people cant solve that.

I dont understand why its better to suffer than getting help, if that is clearly the reason for your pain. people need diffrent kinds of help and threatment.

[Annah]

Yes, I am against it. I am against medical procedures done on children unless they are actually life threatening. (i.e. surgery now or they die.) But, I'll explain.

I knew that I identified as male when I was, man, like 12. Before then, I never really thought of gender at all. It wasn't until I my first brother was born. So, yes, I know how hard it is to identify one way and watch your body go in the other direction. I'm not discounting anyone's frustration during puberty, especially trans youth. I'm not saying "You're under 18 so you don't know". I'm saying I understand, but waiting isn't life or death. If a teen is suicidal they need therapy first and foremost. Anyone who is suicidal needs therapy or counseling. Yes my teen years were awful as far as my gender identity went. It would be hypocritical of me to say that teens and kids can't know. But, I wasn't suicidal. No matter what way I turn it around in my head, I cannot say "okay, this kid is depressed, surgery will fix it." It won't. If someone is at the point of suicide, they need help of a different kind. No matter how depressed I was, I still can't see how my gender issues were life or death. Even taking into account the physical abuse and pain I put myself through, it wasn't life or death. But, it could be because gender issues were the least of my concerns as far as problems. I was raising three kids, had a mother who was bouncing from one drug induced high to the next and a father who was overworked, over stressed and took it out on me in the form of emotional tirades and unrealistic expectations of what a 13 year old could do. If I had ever been suicidal, the reasons would have come from something like my mother locking me in the garage all night when it was -20F outside and telling me to freeze to death, or a number of any incidents that come to mind.

I'll use an example (inperfect, but bear with me). Take a kid/teen who has been overweight. Not a little pudgy, but obese. My cousin is in this situation and my childhood friend was, so I have seen what it can do. So, take this teen who is depressed because they don't like how they look, they get teased, don't fit in, are not comfortable with their bodies. Should the parents get the kid lipo suction because they are depressed or may be suicidal? No. Absolutely not. They should put the kid in therapy and help the kid to lose weight. You know why? Because yes, lipo will superficially help them but those mental and emotional problems will still remain. Now, flip it on its head and take my childhood friend - I love her like my sister and I would do anything for her. She went the opposite way and ended up being 5'8 and 89 pounds, but the emotional problems still stayed. You want someone on the verge of suicide - she nearly succeeded, all she needed was 15 more minutes. She was lucky her father got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. She was in the hospital for a week and then committed. She struggles every day with her body issues and I'm proud of her for being 110 pounds at this point. But it has taken years of her working out her problems because at the end of the day, no matter what she looked like, the emotional problems remained.  **With my husband's permission, I will use him as an example too. He is thin. Too thin, and he knows it.  But he looks in the mirror and he sees someone who is seriously overweight. He is thin enough that he dropped 30 pounds (off of a healthy weight for a man his size) in 6 weeks that we were apart and still sees someone who is overweight, and still wants to lose more. The difference is, he knows its in his head. However, he has said before its a good thing he can't get lipo suction to get rid of the 8% body fat he has. It wouldn't help him. In his head he would still have those problems. Lastly, to use myself: The gender thing is in my head. Nothing will change the fact that I am trans. I was born female, no matter when I get my surgery or the fact that I am on hormones, I will still have XX chromosomes. I have learned to be okay with that. I want to transition. But transition itself wouldn't give me peace of mind without coming to terms with that. Its not a problem that can be fixed with physical changes, period. It come from the mind first and foremost.

No amount of cosmetic surgery will help the mental issues and if anyone is at the verge of suicide, its not a physical problem no matter what you say. Suicide goes against every single instinct we have as living creatures, so to go that far requires serious emotional disturbances. I've seen someone of the verge of suicide and I can honestly say you have to be pretty far gone to get there - if you are at that point, please get professional help, now.
.

^Pretty much this. On the maturity level, I'll put it this way: Age does NOT equal maturity. I have met people older than me who got butt hurt over someone they would never meet disagreeing with them, which is frankly as silly as me getting upset that some of you don't agree with me. However, thinking about "complex" or "mature" subjects doesn't make you mature either. You can think about things like politics, gender (insert topic of your choice) but that does not equal maturity. IQ does not equal being wise. Maturity comes from life experiences, and life experiences give wisdom. Believe me - I'm not wise or mature in a lot of ways. I am a total kid in some ways, because I haven't had the life experience. I'll be the first to say that I'm pretty sure Miss Annah could throw me down in a wisdom contest. I'm cool with that. I see it as a chance to learn from others experiences and let them give me advice. There is a reason I still ask my grandparents for advice - because they have been there. They know from experience and have gained wisdom. My grandparents have forgotten more than I will ever know, and thats just a fact. Part of being "mature" is realizing that others know more than you and have more experience. I remember being a teenager, it wasn't that long ago. You don't magically forget being a teen when you turn 20 or something. I thought I knew everything and I wouldn't let anyone tell me otherwise. But as I have gotten older, I realize that I don't know a damned thing and thinking about my own arrogance back then makes me laugh now.

So, I am coming at it from a different place than a lot of folks. But, I also understand that most people on this board are young - younger than me even and I'm only in my mid 20s. You can disagree with me but I've been there guys, and my view won't change. Point is, being a teenager sucks for everyone regardless of gender issues, but not every kid offs themselves. If someone is suicidal, mental health needs to be addressed.

*** Edit was added with permission.

this times 1000.

I agree with everything but me being more wise lol. I'm not that wise

But everything else, in my opinion, is spot on. Teenagers should not have mastectomies, hysterectomies, etc etc except for extreme cases (which is like....hardly ever...but it does exists).

I just don't believe a teenager is wise or stable enough in their decisions to make such a permanent change. Personal and empirical lifetime evidence has shown me this.

Nat, I had to bind since I was 11 years old. I had breasts (not manboobs but the real deals) since 11. I had binded from age 11 to the age of 35 before I made the decision to transition to female. My breasts were just fine...however I did it properly and had a nurse show me a really good method when I was young. Also, this really doesn't apply to those who want top surgery. Think about it...your argument is: Chest Binding will permanently damage your breasts...so you make an appeal you should have your top surgery so you wont damage your breasts. Top surgery does a lil more "breast destruction" than a binder would; you have them removed.

I think if you get to the point where you want to kill yourself because you haven't had your top surgery at the age of 13-17 then I believe there are more underlying issues that needs to be resolved first before the surgery. But as I stated, I believe there are some circumstances that would warrant a top surgery. For me, it is an EXTREMELY Mature individual who is wise and very knowledgeable and have a history of stability who is a better candidate. A suicidal candidate is not one of those "ok" circumstances to get top surgery. It's too volatile.

[quote Natkat I dont understand why its better to suffer than getting help, if that is clearly the reason for your pain. people need diffrent kinds of help and threatment.[/quote]

Surgery isn't always the answer to getting help. Once a surgery is done, it is done forever (in regards to top). It's permanent. That surgery may very well increase the person's suffering more than it was before; hence, why I believe other treatments are needed before the final act.

[Ayden]

Bear with me, its still early and the coffee is sinking in.

So okay, your agenst all surgerys unless there life threatning.. fine..
and suicide isnt life threatned because you need help..

I'm not against surgery at all. I'm saving up for top surgery next year. I want these chest lumps gone and I am going to have a field day when I can tell 'em bye.  So, no, I totally understand getting surgery. My point was this: surgery isn't a magic cure all. That's all. Just having a surgery will not magically fix the problems. Having a surgery won't fix emotional trauma, social maladjustment or suddenly make someone blossom into someone new. I get wanting to fix your nose or getting bigger breasts or lipo suction. I'm just saying the surgery itself isn't a panacea and won't reverse all the problems.

As for suicide - that is the only way not having top surgery is life threatening in and of itself. By that I mean the act of having breasts never killed a teenager. Breasts themselves do not equal a death sentence. The depression that someone might feel because of them is a problem, but not the tissue itself.

just going to point out something, this is not only mentall and emotian, its also infect the body.
if you binds for many years, for body will get damaged, not from one day to another but over a time, and even if you dont bind it can be unhealthy, it was almost more unhealthy for me not to bind because I wore so much thick close to hide my body and bended myself over, so I got back pain and heatstoke from it.
and even not for binding or in any way hidding away with thick clothes or bended back, I would be very afraid of getting near people. easly getting very agressive and anti social.

I'm NOT saying your experience is not valid or that you really didn't have a hard time, so do not misunderstand me. I get it, I do. I can't stress that enough. I did the same thing, and am doing it now. I can't leave to go out anywhere because its too hot outside and the binders make me feel like I'm dying. When I was a teenager I used ace bandages and I have scars on my chest from trying to get rid of them. I totally get it. But, I still pushed through and made it to being an adult without killing myself by giving myself heat stroke and I had friends. Because I talked to someone. That's my point. It has to start in your mind, and then the physical can happen.

I also say seek out therapy and medical help first because the brain is doing a lot of developing in the teenage years, and it doesn't stop developing until humans are 25 years old. This means that until we are 25 we are not only more prone to risk taking behaviors, but a lot of mental disorders don't appear until we get to be near 20 (or 25 by some research). So, I absolutely think that the mental side needs to be addressed FIRST, and then you can move on to physical treatment.

I do agree that surgery shouldnt just be done, but I do not agree you should be on your limit to die to get them.
if your in pain, I belive surgery should be an option, and having a choice between being deep depressed or not being able to breath, is as I see it, being in pain, and even life threathed in worst caise.

I never said someone should die rather than get a surgery. I said it shouldn't be the first thing on anyone's list. Again, the fact that breasts exist is not a death sentence for most teens. Its what we do around it, and frankly any teenager with that much self hate to their bodies needs help first. I did, and it saved me. Surgery wouldn't have taken away my self hatred. I had to learn to accept myself first. 

I said in a previous post that for anyone, surgery is a permanent, huge choice. So, take the right steps. I think anyone should have to get therapy, hormones, live as their gender, and then get physical corrections - in that order. I just think for younger folks, its more important. When someone is 16, they have their entire lives ahead of them. I'm saying I don't want someone to do something that they want but may not be ready for. Believe it or not, surgery is traumatic. Post surgical depression is very real, even in the trans community. So, thats it. I just think that  the proper steps need to be taken. Just Annah said - its a mature, well rounded person who should make those choices. I believe that taking proper steps and taking time is important. I just don't know many teenagers that would be emotionally mature enough to make a choice like that. Just having a problem doesn't mean that you are suddenly mature. Being trans having to suffer doesn't make us more emotionally mature than our counterparts. Thats why I think proper steps should be taken. That's really all. I just think the standards of care should be adhered to like the gospel when you are talking about younger people who literally haven't even began their lives.

also no matter how you can get help, people cant cure being trans as it wont infect you.
you can be trans and be happy about your body, but theres also many people who wasnt and never will be, and even the most perfect people cant solve that.

I dont understand why its better to suffer than getting help, if that is clearly the reason for your pain. people need diffrent kinds of help and threatment.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think being trans can be cured or that its an infection. All I said was that acceptance of our circumstances should come first. So, yeah. I just said for me, I needed to accept that I will never be a biological male, and that was the first step to healing the emotional wounds. I know being trans can't be cured - I'm not that silly. I never said it could infect anyone. I would never make such a stupid claim. I just said that mental health should the first step to treatment.

Yes, people do need different kinds of help. I agree. But, everyone needs mental help when they have to live through traumatic experiences. Again, take the proper steps. I don't think that surgery before turning 18 is the right step for everyone, so as a rule, I disagree with it. But, I did say before in a previous post in this thread that if all the requirements were met and the standards of care were met then that is great. I just think for minors it should be an extra careful process.

so I dont agree..

Thats okay. Discussions on matters like this hardly ever have everyone agreeing. The discussion itself is important. I'm not trying to make anyone agree. You asked my opinion and I answered as honestly as I could. That was all. Its nothing personal against anyone. Everyone should have their own opinions. Talking about them calmly is important, and I have had plenty of times to stop and think about your responses and have enjoyed exploring the idea. So, we don't have to agree, but I certainly have nothing against you. Like I said before, I love to debate and exchange ideas.

I agree with everything but me being more wise lol. I'm not that wise

My grandmother always told me "everyone knows something you don't, so don't get cocky!"  So I just assume that everyone at some point has more knowledge than me. I'm sure you are infinitely wiser in some areas!

I think if you get to the point where you want to kill yourself because you haven't had your top surgery at the age of 13-17 then I believe there are more underlying issues that needs to be resolved first before the surgery. But as I stated, I believe there are some circumstances that would warrant a top surgery. For me, it is an EXTREMELY Mature individual who is wise and very knowledgeable and have a history of stability who is a better candidate. A suicidal candidate is not one of those "ok" circumstances to get top surgery. It's too volatile.

[quote Natkat I dont understand why its better to suffer than getting help, if that is clearly the reason for your pain. people need diffrent kinds of help and threatment.

Surgery isn't always the answer to getting help. Once a surgery is done, it is done forever (in regards to top). It's permanent. That surgery may very well increase the person's suffering more than it was before; hence, why I believe other treatments are needed before the final act.

Bolded for emphasis. That was all I was saying. Its a big choice and the proper steps should be taken.

On a side note - Ouch, wall o' text. I type a lot in the mornings it seems.

[Carbon]

I also say seek out therapy and medical help first because the brain is doing a lot of developing in the teenage years, and it doesn't stop developing until humans are 25 years old. This means that until we are 25 we are not only more prone to risk taking behaviors, but a lot of mental disorders don't appear until we get to be near 20 (or 25 by some research). So, I absolutely think that the mental side needs to be addressed FIRST, and then you can move on to physical treatment.

There's a pretty big problem in my mind with assuming that therapists will necessarily be capable of addressing "the mental side," along with there not being a clear division between mind/body issues. I'm not actually totally against gate keeping in theory but as someone who has had absolutely terrible experiences with the psych system and who has seen/talked to people who had their lives threatened by it, the thing that exists now is just not something we should be investing so much authority in. That level of trust comes from people who exist in a relatively privileged position in relation to it.

I also think it's pretty problematic to regulate what reasons are acceptable for someone to be suicidal or to argue that a suicidal person should not be allowed to make the same decisions as someone who isn't suicidal. There's a level of disability prejudice via "mental health" stuff in saying only people with certain kinds of brains/neuro-cognitive makeups should be allowed the freedom or control over their lives. If I was a doctor I would definitely gauge if people were able to make a decision in a clear mindset, like I would not accept a medical decision that was made while the person was drunk, but what counts as a clear mindset, who is seen as capable of making decisions, etc is heavily clouded by culture and one's own perception. Subjective, existing within a particular context in the mind of a particular subject.

Some people may feel like trans people or autistic people or nonwhite people are ever capable of making those decisions, which is just a more extreme manifestation of the same kind of idea.

In regards to this topic? I'd say wait until they're 18. At the same time, nothing is going to magically change on their 18th birthday. There are people at 16 who are ready to make that decision, people at 20 who aren't, and a lot of doctors and therapists working within a system and culture that only sees certain kinds of people as valuable. It's a blurry thing.