The "Sir" Factor

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I guess so. Though I just recently moved from cozy metropolitan suburbia to a mix of beachy and blue collar farmy culture and frankly even if my ideas about fashion and makeup and things are pretty unique around here, everybody can still tell that my presentation is very female.

Though, to be fair I don't get ma'am'd much just like I never got sir'd much, maybe because I'm young still. I still know what people think though because salespeople call me her/she or beautiful/pretty. And that is still when my face (which passed as male) and body are virtually the same as they were pre-hrt (I'm only 3ish months in). So presentation is really really important.

I had not considered that younger people don't get sir or ma'am. In the American South, and among African-Americans in most places , it is considered obstreperous  not to address an older person, as sir or ma'am or maybe miss if it is a younger woman.  I am older and I get "ma'amed" it seems several times a day. I got ma'amed three times in class today by a younger GSI. (graduate student assistant who conducts the discussion. )

[Ave]

I had not considered that younger people don't get sir or ma'am. In the American South, and among African-Americans in most places , it is considered obstreperous  not to address an older person, as sir or ma'am or maybe miss if it is a younger woman.  I am older and I get "ma'amed" it seems several times a day. I got ma'amed three times in class today by a younger GSI. (graduate student assistant who conducts the discussion. )

I look around 14-15, but I've never gotten sir, instead I get "miss" a lot (I'm not a FAAB btw and present male) by immigrant men in a pretty asswhole-ish tone. I guess they are trying to put me back in my place somehow as they percieve me to be a butch girl. It's ridiculous, but it's also pretty crappy to see guys who still think that way.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I look around 14-15, but I've never gotten sir, instead I get "miss" a lot (I'm not a FAAB btw and present male) by immigrant men in a pretty asswhole-ish tone. I guess they are trying to put me back in my place somehow as they percieve me to be a butch girl. It's ridiculous, but it's also pretty crappy to see guys who still think that way.

Interesting. Where do you live and where are the immigrant men from?

[Ave]

Interesting. Where do you live and where are the immigrant men from?

large east coast city (rather not get too specific)

The immigrant men are either arab or some variation thereof (no offense, I'm just not good with differentiating between nationalities!)
Granted, I've been on large doses of spiro (definetly not recommending self-medication) since I was 15  and full dose estrogen since a few years after that,so physically I am very androgynous (soft voice that didn't drop, small wrists and shoulders, skinny build but wide hips, small ribcage and breasts...you get the point.)

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Wow! You are lucky I was born too late to do that.

[pretty]

pretty - I have long hair and am typically wearing makeup and a blouse, skirt, and flats.  I wouldn't say I'm dressed very neutrally.  Also, while I know people love to stereotype rural areas as being less progressive, I live in Chicago.  It's the third largest city in the US.  Still, people who are clearly born and raised around here do indeed go out of their way to emphasize to me that they "figured out I'm really a man".

Well, my first thought is that makeup would help.

Also that's not really related to the topic because even if there is no gendered language, trolls are still gonna go out of their way to make sure you know that they clocked you.

But yea mean people are no fun. The only real choice is to pass better.

[pretty]

Actually I guess it is not entirely about age... after posting here I was "ma'am"ed twice the next day.

And I definitely only pass because of my feminine presentation so yea... that is my main suggestion. But I have never been sir'ed.

[peky]

large east coast city (rather not get too specific)

The immigrant men are either arab or some variation thereof (no offense, I'm just not good with differentiating between nationalities!)
Granted, I've been on large doses of spiro (definetly not recommending self-medication) since I was 15  and full dose estrogen since a few years after that,so physically I am very androgynous (soft voice that didn't drop, small wrists and shoulders, skinny build but wide hips, small ribcage and breasts...you get the point.)

pictures?

[Ave]

pictures?

I'd rather not end up on google images, so I'll just have to have JamieD vouch for me .

[AbraCadabra]

No wonder Jamie D feels like fading away... looking at you lot 

Jealous can kill the finest, eh 

Axx

[Ave]

No wonder Jamie D feels like fading away looking at you lot 

Jealous can kill the finest, eh 

Axx

lol, maybe so. Quite a few people end up here on google images though, and I prefer being anonymous

[dumb bunny]

Now I'm wondering if anyone has seen a pic of Jamie D. 

[Ave]

Now I'm wondering if anyone has seen a pic of Jamie D.

I have,


very cute!

[Jamie D]

Tunnel 6, Row 47, Seat 8

[Alexis]

That was you?!?

[ashrock]

I dont get "sir" a lot even though I dress and look masculine.  Its odd how people will try to use something that is meant as a sign of respect to reveal bigotry in themselves.  Since I havent really even started this journey, I have not been there.  Funny side story, I get "maam" a lot when going through drive thrus (dont know why, not trying to sound feminine, and after seeing me, they dont maam or sir me either) and it really makes me smile inside, but its really funny how I have to feign dislike of it when it happens with my wife.  I know my sarcasm MUST be showing through.  Oh, that rascally drive thru attendant must not be able to tell what a man sounds like, shucks.

[dumb bunny]

I only get sir'ed by people that know I'm trans that are trying to be jerks. Unfortunately, while at work, I have to ignore it. I tend to be downright cold to those types though, so that there is no doubt whatsoever that I think of them as jerks.

[Rita]

Start hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while. The human brain automatically/subconsciously differentiates gender by analysis of the targets facial shape and skin texture. From the front, texture is relied on more, from the side, it's geometry. This is possibly one of the reasons a lot of people wait till they've been on hormones for a while before they attempt to present as their desired gender. Gender recognition is learned in infancy and mastered before the age of about 8. When you're being gendered one way or another you should never take it personally, for most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.

This ---^  Unless they are making a conscious observation.  But most people who just pass me by tend to say mam.  Even when I am not presenting as a woman.

Even with conscious observation it is sometimes difficult for them and they don't know what to say until I open up my mouth. 

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Start hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while. The human brain automatically/subconsciously differentiates gender by analysis of the targets facial shape and skin texture. From the front, texture is relied on more, from the side, it's geometry. This is possibly one of the reasons a lot of people wait till they've been on hormones for a while before they attempt to present as their desired gender. Gender recognition is learned in infancy and mastered before the age of about 8. When you're being gendered one way or another you should never take it personally, for most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.

Can you provide a citation for this?

This ---^  Unless they are making a conscious observation.  But most people who just pass me by tend to say mam.  Even when I am not presenting as a woman.

Where do you live in which passersby speak to you?

[Isabelle]

Can you provide a citation for this?

Ok. My statement is supported by many papers, the following supports the most directly. In future, if I'm expected to provide supporting documents with my posts, what format would you like my referencing in? Personally I prefer APA but, I'm easy.

http://cogsci.bme.hu/~gkovacs/letoltes/2nd_b.pdf

Ps, you're not the only one who went to school
Xox