Just looking for some thoughts/different perspectives ...

[insideontheoutside]

I posted a long post over in the FTM thread > https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,126139.msg990887.html#msg990887  but since everyone there seems pretty confident about transition, I find I don't get a lot of responses. Someone suggested I try over here and I figured I'd give it a go. I realize I'm androgynous but never identified as androgyne (to my understanding, those are two different things, yeah?) but perhaps after reading the post someone might have some different thoughts on my current issues.

Thanks

[Pica Pica]

If I could wave a wand and get rid of the physical female parts of me, I would do it without hesitation.

Reading your post it sounds to me like you are a man. Have always been a man and will always be one.

The fact that you have doubts and concerns about the effectiveness and cost (physical/social/etc) or transition do not make you any less of a man.

As for advice, I'd agree with you exercising, shaping your body in ways that feel safe and seeing how your relationship to it changes. You may start feeling a desire for hormone etc, you may not. Alas, as an androgyne I feel I can't transition, for there is nothing to transition to, but for those that can I don't see it as a race, but a process that takes everyone their own time.

[ativan]

As for advice, I'd agree with you exercising, shaping your body in ways that feel safe and seeing how your relationship to it changes. You may start feeling a desire for hormone etc, you may not. Alas, as an androgyne I feel I can't transition, for there is nothing to transition to, but for those that can I don't see it as a race, but a process that takes everyone their own time.

Adopting an androgynous look or feeling is as much a transition as any physical changes one makes.

[androgynoid]

I've been meaning to post in your thread in the FtM section, but I like that you've posted it here too. I'm very definitely not a man, so I can't relate entirely to what it feels like to wonder if you are one, but I do relate a little to what you've said.

If I could wave a wand and get rid of the physical female parts of me, I would do it without hesitation.

I don't think this necessarily makes you a man. You might be, or you may be more comfortable in a male body but still have an androgynous gender. There are people like that, who transition to male but identify as non-binary. I can't speak for them, though, since I've only transitioned partway.

On the topic of being misgendered by people ... That's bothering me more and more and I really thought by now that I would be able to overcome that and just brush it off. I'm actually getting very close to the point of telling more people in my life (that I can trust) that I'm transsexual (it's the closest thing to a definition that other people could understand easily that I could come up with, without having to tell my life story and all my interesting little "quirks" in the process) simply so they'll stop including me as "one of the girls" and start treating me differently. That bothers me even more than just someone I don't know addressing me as "miss" or "ma'am" ... people who do know me, especially women, who try to "include" me in some sort of "sisterhood" or something. It not only makes me seriously uncomfortable it just makes me want to scream, "I'm not an f*$%ing woman!" to them. It actually makes me angry, and that's not good. It's not good to walk around angry at people who are your friends for doing something they think is normal and they have no idea is even making you angry.

This is the part I most relate to. Now that I mostly have the physical dysphoria under control, the social dysphoria is starting to come up more and more. And, like you, it's not the random strangers that get to me the most. It's my mom calling me her beautiful daughter, it's my friends inviting me on their girls' night out.

Perhaps you could let them know that referring to you in the feminine makes you uncomfortable, without necessarily coming out to them. I haven't had to explicitly do this, though; the people I'm not out to have mostly taken a hint from the people I am out to.

I might come back and add more later; I'm overcaffeinated and having trouble concentrating today.

[insideontheoutside]

Thank you folks for the replies!

Pica Pica - I think you're right there (and I am going to do more with the exercising). And Cain, you bring up a certainly valid point too. Since I believe that I probably do have some form of intersex going on (long story short, my mom had PCOS before having me and had very high levels of T - so I came out with slightly questionable physical traits, not 100% fully developed internal female parts and hormone levels that I've been told are "not normal" ... I've come to think they are normal for me, but that's another whole story) my body will probably always be a little bit of both. I can handle that, even though if that magic wand showed up I know which way I'd choose. So as far as the gender goes, I think it's male.

But, you also have to account for the fact that for most of my life I've had to live as female. That's where the sociological component comes into play. I could act the part if I really wanted to, but I don't want to – it's not comfortable at all for me, it really does feel like an "act". Even though I feel I'm a bit of an empath at times, interaction between females just confuses me. While I can pick up on some of the nuances of it all and "play along" to an extent, I can't connect with it on their level if that makes any sense, and I usually do end up doing or saying something that makes them all look at me like I'm from outer space.

And basically for my whole life past around age 12 I've been androgynous in appearance (up until that age my parents let me pretty much live as male as far as appearance and activities went). Couldn't tell you how many times I got the "are you a boy or a girl" thing just in school alone. So that brings me to Ativan's equally valid point that normally, if someone were to adopt an androgynous appearance, that's a kind of "transition" as well and I do know there are non-binary people who choose hormones or even some surgeries specifically to gain a middle ground that they're comfortable with. I guess I'm lucky in that I've stood on the middle ground pretty much my whole life and that I'm okay with androgyny (just wish it fell more to the male side for me).

So I think I have kind of a muti-dimensional thing going on where I could technically be placed in a number of different "categories". I would truly love to just say to hell with any categories and just be myself, but these little things keep cropping up that frustrate me.

And Cain, I never really thought in terms of having "social dysphoria" ... just always thought of the physical form of that. That totally makes sense to me putting it that way though as that really is a good description for it. The last couple days I've thought about how I could "sort of" come out to people in a low-level way to try to stop this type of thing from occurring and making me uncomfortable/angry. But then I thought, well, even if I did that they would still consider me female. The very select few (basically 3 friends and the guy I'm married to) that do know, I'm totally comfortable around. So I may just have to come out to some of the "worst offenders" who are still close friends of mine so that this behavior could hopefully be modified.

I think this was helpful. New and different perspectives often help me to sort some of my own stuff out.

[foosnark]

Categories aren't as diverse or nuanced as humans are.  I suspect many, if not most, of us could almost-fit into several (even if they seem to be contradictory) and no category is perfect.

Gender categories and labels also mostly suggest that things are static over time (genderfluid being the exception), and I suspect that's not true for most of us.

A friend linked to this, and I thought it was relevant: http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2012/08/what-are-you/

[insideontheoutside]

Interesting article foosnark. Personally I'd rather not use labels because I feel labels tend to put people in boxes that are too small for them. But what can you do in a society that is filled with labels? Just that article alone points this out that every aspect of our lives, what we like, what we like to do, what we do for work, what we eat ... everything ... is a label.

The real problem, at least on the topic of gender, is that if you don't 100% fit the standardized label, people don't know what to do with you. I had a friend tell me his theory that most people who don't know me address me as female because even if they are unsure, they think it would be less offensive to error on the side of female. Like a normal women would most likely be offended by being called male and a normal male would most likely immediately correct someone. I'm also small (5'3") and have a choppy, longish hairstyle (and if I do happen to speak I sound like a teenage boy, so voice is a bit of a giveaway as well). So all of those things combined overrides the clothes, the mannerisms, etc and lumps me into female land. How do I change those things in order to be androgynous male as opposed to androgynous female without the use of hormones? I can't change the height. I can work more on my body through exercise. I can't really change the way I talk. Might be able to get 1 lower pitch with practice or something but it's not going to change a lot. I could change my hair, but I know from experience that shorter hair makes my face (and the fact I barely shave at all) look more feminine and pixie like. So that's where I'm kinda stuck.