How to present and what to wear for therapy?

[Annah]

I don't know you personally, but you seem like you don't wear girly or flashy things often, so I would avoid doing anything special for therapy.

I was like that in my first month RLE....now I am probably more girly than half the girls at my school. This time three years ago if you were to tell me I would wear skirts and flats, I would laugh at you. Now, total 180

[Ave]

I was like that in my first month RLE....now I am probably more girly than half the girls at my school. This time three years ago if you were to tell me I would wear skirts and flats, I would laugh at you. Now, total 180

yeah, but that was a process for you. If CRTadfaskf whatever that user name says doesn't feel comfortable "Crossdressing" as they put it, they shouldn't do it. It reads as phoney and that sends up a red flag to the therapist (at least to a good one).

[Apples Mk.II]

This is something you have to work on. Self confidence is a large part of being able to transition and to be happy.

Believe me, the improvement has been huge. You know how I can tell? I believed to have hyperhidrosis, because of the massive sweating I had every time I had to do something I was unfamiliar with, to the point of not being able to use bright colour clothes. Now my pulse is just normal. I can even look people in the eyes again.
I guess that that travelling to foreign countries on my own without anybody to rely on also helped a lot. Previously I just panicked, rolled into a ball and let others do the asking.


Seriously, I wonder how I could panic to buy clothing but remain calm while bleeding myself out and saying "It's OK". When I work with people I don't know I am like a freaking ice block, so I should be able to apply it to other fields.

[Apples Mk.II]

yeah, but that was a process for you. If CRTadfaskf whatever that user name says doesn't feel comfortable "Crossdressing" as they put it, they shouldn't do it. It reads as phoney and that sends up a red flag to the therapist (at least to a good one).

If I was young and passable I'd do it, but without hormones or FFS it is impossible for me. Putting a dress, wig, make up and shaving won't prepare me for it, it will just create another trauma. It would only be an ugly man in a costume. It would prepare me for a female role? No. I'd be in the role of a clown laughed by everybody.

I have already done it and looked at the mirror. It was a pathetic joke, not even passable for carnival. The RLE simply can't be done by everybody. You either have a perfect starting face or the ability yo be completely oblivious to all the world looking at you. I don't have any of that. No matter if they tell me that I have a good starting point, that my factions are androgynous. To me it is pure BS. If my face was decent, I would be able to look at myself and I would not have saved during years for surgery. I am ugly even for a man, and every time I see my reflection I just want to bury my head in a hole. Whenever I walk I feel as if was some sort of convict, rapist or assassin, with a face that has "evil" all written over it and scares people. I never hit on a girl when I was a teenager, because I always saw myself as a monstrosity that should not exist.  At school I was the ugly thing everybody made fun of and girls ran away from. High School was even worse. First they were the caricatures hanging everythere (including that big nose with every clogged pore drawn, guess why I want to fix that) . Later my classmates told me that I'd probably have to lose my virginity with a whore. So yeah, ask me to do female RLE when doing a RLE for a man's life just made me hide in a hole for ten years after high school.



There you go, that's life for me whenever I don't have my head busy with something to avoid seeing the reality. It is that bad for me. I don't care about passability in a future, or being able to fulfill a role, or whatever. I just want a face I can look at and not to cry. I have tried to accept it. To accept living as an ugly man. Even that was not possible. I already was an ugly kid and puberty robbed me of all my hopes. I avoid being photographed, and I try to destroy every old photo I find of myself. I look at my reflection and I see some sort of malformed mask some crazed god put there to make a jester. I did not even have a beart to hide my face. If I can hardly leave home as a man, I wonder how I am going to do it with a bad costume.

BTW, I have here a PDF with the full study of the ->-bleeped-<- and its situation where I live. If tomorro I have some time, I will translate the pages related to the RLE. It is an exact explanation of why it is so painful to me. I have already endured enough in this life, forcing yourself to do this is just going against human rights. Every time I had to think about the RLE, all my hopes of a different life dissapeared, to the point of considering that final solution.

[Annah]

yeah, but that was a process for you. If CRTadfaskf whatever that user name says doesn't feel comfortable "Crossdressing" as they put it, they shouldn't do it. It reads as phoney and that sends up a red flag to the therapist (at least to a good one).

right, i already stated to her earlier, to go as herself.

I brought up the other statement because one should be open for any changes that may occur and don't fight it.

[JoanneB]

For this session, don't do anything special. I'm sure the therapist could care less if you have removed all your body hair or have had your nose pores cleaned. Also the more you do to stress yourself out, the less you will get from the therapy session. It doesn't sound like you are "close to RLE and want a quick one session give me a letter for HRL and I'm gone" kinda thing anyway.

I have to agree 100%. It is your first session. You obviously are not living full or even part time. That will become abundantly clear by the end of the session. So what is the point over sweating over how to present?

But.... If you are serious about transitioning you WILL need to start presenting sometime. From all you have said it will not be anytime soon. You seem to want to want the system to bend to your rules. OK's for surgeries and in some cases HRT comes after RLE, not before.

When I was in my 20's I twice tried/tested out transitioning. Both times I felt as you did. I am 6ft tall, have giant frog hands, super sized feet, deep voice, big boney head, and balding rapaidly. Both times I stopped. I wasn't prepared or willing to put up with a lifetime of being a target after having spent much of it as one already. Even w/o hormones and definetly no surgeries and mostly no hair, I seem to pass most of the time now. Besides only being 5'11" not a lot has changed. Besides attitude that is.

[Apples Mk.II]

If I could, id like to present as soon as I xould . I dont exactly enjoy being percejved as a man. The issue is that I need something to help me that alters a bit my face, and just shaving and makeup are not ennough. I wish I could enddure those three months of rle, at least partially, but how? Im not tall, I have medium hands andd feet, small torso and bigger hips than waist, but just looking at my face gives me away, no matter the makeup or the wig. If i cant be perceived as a woman, I dont now how it can count as rle.

[Ave]

If I could, id like to present as soon as I xould . I dont exactly enjoy being percejved as a man. The issue is that I need something to help me that alters a bit my face, and just shaving and makeup are not ennough. I wish I could enddure those three months of rle, at least partially, but how? Im not tall, I have medium hands andd feet, small torso and bigger hips than waist, but just looking at my face gives me away, no matter the makeup or the wig. If i cant be perceived as a woman, I dont now how it can count as rle.

if it's that bad then just get FFS.

[Stephe]

If I was young and passable I'd do it, but without hormones or FFS it is impossible for me. Putting a dress, wig, make up and shaving won't prepare me for it, it will just create another trauma. It would only be an ugly man in a costume. It would prepare me for a female role? No. I'd be in the role of a clown laughed by everybody.

Well some tough truths, HRT is not going to make you pass. Honestly I have been on HRT for 18 months and don't see any big changes in my appearance other than I have my own boobs now. The changes HRT give are very subtle unless you are very young when you start.

I have learned how to apply makeup, dress to fit my body type, what hair style suits me, how to walk/talk/act like a lady among other things. I see pictures of myself when I first went full time and cringe. How did I go out of the house looking like that but I did and the sky didn't fall. No one was mean or hateful to me. It really was a non-event even though I looked horrid IMHO.

I can promise you one thing, going under the knife, taking pills and sitting around at home hoping this will transform you is not in any way preparing you for a female role either. There is a GOOD reason they want you to do RLE. One other thing, being a woman in reality is different than most people imagine. You really want to test this out and make sure you can handle it. The other reason to do RLE is, as you improve your looks and presentation, it just becomes easier and easier. There is no way to learn this stuff without just doing it. At no point is transition as easy thing to do. I'm close to 6' tall and don't have a female build but I pass and get along as a woman just fine. You will ALWAYS find a laundry list of reasons why you can't transition if you want to. That doesn't mean any of them actually exist.

Being ugly has nothing to do with 'can I be a woman or not' as there are PLENTY of butt ugly women on the planet. Now if your goal is to look like a disney princess, good luck.

[Apples Mk.II]

Cr*p. Not ready then if I can't take the ridicule. I've been copying manerisms and movement patterns for a long time (unconciously at first), but little else. Yet, the more I see it as an obstable, the more I try to think how to overcome it. I have already secured place for switching clothes outside my home, prepared an alternative route to reach the transportation or bumping into known people, and marked the worst offenders in my face to see how I can mask them. I keep digging info on which clothing styles fit me better ("Transtienda" is a shop that has a good deal of info on how to find the correct combinations, colors, styles depending on your body type), slowly modifying my wardrobe. The only things I am missing are enough privacy for make up practise, a decent wig (the one I have is only for in-house testing) and enough guts to leave home like that.


Still, I can't see a big "role difference" apart from the "walk/talk/act" from my current lifestyle. They keep talking about the female role, but apart from the patterns, unless you are living in an islamic country, I don't see any differences.

[Beverly]

Still, I can't see a big "role difference" apart from the "walk/talk/act" from my current lifestyle. They keep talking about the female role, but apart from the patterns, unless you are living in an islamic country, I don't see any differences.

That is because in many ways there are no differences. Being a woman is exactly the same as being a man. You still have to cook, eat, do food shopping, feed the dog, work for a living, pay your bills, replace the TV when it blows up, sit in traffic jams, pay your taxes and clean the house.

What changes is how you think of yourself and how others treat you. Your social role changes and you had better be able to accept being treated as a woman or you are in for a bad time. An example - I was in a group with two men and they were talking about something that one of them knew something about and the other one knew nothing about. I knew more than either because I had 10 years of experience in dealing with it. I tried to enter the conversation at several points but was rebuffed because in many mens's minds when they are talking about technical issues women do not interrupt them. These guys are normally friendly but I have seen this behaviour from other men.

Another sign of my burgeoning femininity was when I was in another mixed group - 4 men, me and a 15 year old girl. Guess who was assigned the kitchen duties...

I once had a man who I did not know very well give me a hug when I was saying goodbye for the night. The first time it happened it really startled me. Women hug each other very frequently. What would you do if strangers hugged you or kissed you on the cheek?

The rules when you are in a group of women change as well. I have made some horrible bloopers because I did not know the rules and no one tells you. You shut up, watch and learn but you can only do it if you are presenting as female because womens' behaviour changes completely when an obvious male is present.

This is what RLE is about. Can you live in a very different social role and possibly as a second-class citizen in some situations? Are you prepared to be seen as the cook and cleaner for the rest of your days?

The point of RLE is to find out




Update: Some posts from someone who rushed into FFS. If you do nothing else today then read these


"LEARN from my experience.  It's been a rollercoaster.  I'm not satisfied with the outcome.  I've tried to talk myself into being okay with it, but it's not a stable result, and the main objective has not succeeded.  I do not pass as a woman - at all. "

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,119119.msg918874.html#msg918874



"Getting a completely new face is another kind of remorse.  This is much more serious than anything I've ever done and it has potentially deadly consequences.I was the wrong candidate for FFS from the very start.  I hadn't gone through any proper planning.  I simply had the money to do it and I rushed it through with reckless abandon. "

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,118523.msg911946.html#msg911946

[Cindy]

I'll echo what the other girls have said. RLE has little to do about 'passing' it has all to do with acceptance. Are you sure you are content being female or is it a feeling that isn't really deeply ingrained?  I was also terrified of RLE even though I was regularly going out and many people knew me, but I couldn't go full time. The ridicule would be too much. In practice it has been a none event.  But it does need some getting used to. No I'm not some gorgeous 'tart' I'm a very average woman. I get treated that way. Men treat woman differently than they do men, and you don't realise how differently until you experience it FT. Woman treat woman differently than they treat men. Considerably so, that has been one of the biggest social things to get used to.

I won't pass? Images never pass. Images are the brains perception of what the eyes see. The brain interprets that information to make sense of it. This has been demonstrated in multiple experiments. There are many excellent documentaries and facts on this seemingly odd behaviour. But at an extreme if you wear glasses to make all of your images inverted, the brain takes about 30 mins to change all of the images to the 'correct way' for it too understand. So what has this to do with presentation? If you act and present as female then peoples brains interpret you as a female. It has to, it is the only way to make sense.

Take very good female impersonators. Many people look at them and say 'I wouldn't believe that he wasn't female, he looks so good' And they are correct. The art of female impersonation is to trick the audiences' brains' into believing they are female but fooling the audience by not acting female. It is the comedy angle of fooling the audience that is the entertainment.

So what does that mean? Well by acting as a normal female you are perceived as being a normal female. You pass. If you act like a guy in a dress you will pass as a guy in a dress.
It takes time and it takes effort and it takes confidence. You also have to match your drive and determination to succeed at what you wish to do.

I and many of the woman here 'pass' (sorry hate this expression BTW) very well and we live happy lives. It has not been without intense effort and damn hard work, and a lot of set backs and buckets of tears.

But for me there was no option. I had to be me.

In the end we can look forward, or we don't. It can be very easy to find an excuse for not doing something. Many people have made a life time out of it.

Do what you want to do and live your life.

Cindy

[Apples Mk.II]

Finally, the missing link.

What changes is how you think of yourself and how others treat you. Your social role changes and you had better be able to accept being treated as a woman or you are in for a bad time. An example - I was in a group with two men and they were talking about something that one of them knew something about and the other one knew nothing about. I knew more than either because I had 10 years of experience in dealing with it. I tried to enter the conversation at several points but was rebuffed because in many mens's minds when they are talking about technical issues women do not interrupt them. These guys are normally friendly but I have seen this behaviour from other men.[/b]

That's the treatment I've been getting my whole life, as in "Shut up, you don't count as a man". No big changes. No matter if I am the expert on something, I am not perceived as a "real man", just a mockup.

Another sign of my burgeoning femininity was when I was in another mixed group - 4 men, me and a 15 year old girl. Guess who was assigned the kitchen duties...

At least they would let me help. Even in the job when I try to help with an special lunch, is a constant "get out from the kitchen, women only".

I once had a man who I did not know very well give me a hug when I was saying goodbye for the night. The first time it happened it really startled me. Women hug each other very frequently. What would you do if strangers hugged you or kissed you on the cheek?

Punch them in the gut,  pepper spray, call the cops. I don't take contact from strangers kindly, men or women. Ah "hello" or "goodbye" will do. Not all the woman I meet go with hugs and kisses.

The rules when you are in a group of women change as well. I have made some horrible bloopers because I did not know the rules and no one tells you. You shut up, watch and learn but you can only do it if you are presenting as female because womens' behaviour changes completely when an obvious male is present.

This is a difficult. At my department they will only talk between themselves at ultra low volume, and at lunch (surrounded by +15, only man there) I'm just invisible. I'd like to be included. In men's group, I feel completely out of place. They way I am treated, it just feels wrong.

This is what RLE is about. Can you live in a very different social role and possibly as a second-class citizen in some situations? Are you prepared to be seen as the cook and cleaner for the rest of your days?

Usually I am the second class or even lower. Men are only a minority here. But I don't think those values apply a lot. At my family's current generation, men are usually the cooks. The cleaning, shared.

But what happens if during RLE you are not perceived as a woman but a man in a dress, even with all the mannerisms and acting? (And the voice will take longer than the RLE, that if they find what's wrong with my system).



Well, not a lot to do, just wait to see what we find in therapy. Still pissed of about the fact that now I feel that I am forced to "pass" as male, specially at home. Ever since I came out they seem to be keeping track of how I move, stand, change my hair or if I am trying to adapt my voice. When somebody tries to daily block your advance, it's hard to try fitting in the role.



Reading the surgery thread, is in part what I was thinking. 8888 recommended me a lot of things, but I don't think I need that much. Sure, there are a few parts of my face that I always wanted to correct (nose, brow and adam's apple), but I was not worried about my lips, jaw, chin or facial fat that much. But different from that case, I do hate my face, at least a part of it. I always said than a mixture of facial features would be more than enough instead of full feminization. But in the worst moments of self hate, that's when I tend to break the piggy bank and say "I want as much of my old face as possible to dissapear". Definitely, I won't miss that nose, and it already needs a fix so that I can breath properly. Although I don't a tiny one, just to stylise a bit the existing one.

[Beverly]

Finally, the missing link.

Punch them in the gut,  pepper spray, call the cops. I don't take contact from strangers kindly, men or women. Ah "hello" or "goodbye" will do. Not all the woman I meet go with hugs and kisses.

Nonetheless, women touch each other a lot more than men do. They stand closer together as well. Touching each other is part of the interaction and something that might be a real problem for you is this - men will invade your personal space without warning. Aggressiveness back will not. No one likes an aggressive woman.

This is a difficult. At my department they will only talk between themselves at ultra low volume, and at lunch (surrounded by +15, only man there) I'm just invisible. I'd like to be included. In men's group, I feel completely out of place. They way I am treated, it just feels wrong.
Usually I am the second class or even lower.

Women are very forgiving in general. If you are are seen to be making a real effort then they will include you on the edge of the group and over time they will admit you more and more ans long as they are convinced that you are still journeying to womanhood. You do not have to be perfect. The tiolet will likely be an issue but initially just use the disabled loos.

But what happens if during RLE you are not perceived as a woman but a man in a dress, even with all the mannerisms and acting? (And the voice will take longer than the RLE, that if they find what's wrong with my system).

This is why RLE is so important. You learn to be a woman by osmosis and your only teachers are other women - that is how they learned. Women will let you know when you are doing it wrong. No man can teach you this, but the women have to perceive you as a women or very strongly trying to be one. They will not tolerate a man in that space.

[Apples Mk.II]

This was the part I could no put in the puzzle. I was going to ask what it meant, after searching a lot and not finding anything.

Women are very forgiving in general. If you are are seen to be making a real effort then they will include you on the edge of the group and over time they will admit you more and more ans long as they are convinced that you are still journeying to womanhood. You do not have to be perfect. The tiolet will likely be an issue but initially just use the disabled loos.

This is why RLE is so important. You learn to be a woman by osmosis and your only teachers are other women - that is how they learned. Women will let you know when you are doing it wrong. No man can teach you this, but the women have to perceive you as a women or very strongly trying to be one. They will not tolerate a man in that space.

The therapist talked about finding a middle point, as to maybe adapt RLE to the existing posibilities. At my workplace there are like 50 women and 20 men, being closer to the women since I am not very well perceived a "manly" (Already a few comments of looking like a woman). Maybe doing it at the workplace could have a pass, but getting into camo again before getting back to home (where I am not exactly free to do that).

[Beverly]

This is a difficult. At my department they will only talk between themselves at ultra low volume, and at lunch (surrounded by +15, only man there) I'm just invisible. I'd like to be included. In men's group, I feel completely out of place. They way I am treated, it just feels wrong.

Let us say they include you. What will you contribute to casual conversation? Will you complain about your bra hurting? A nice perfume you found? Good recipes? Your favourite boy band? Make up? Heels that do not hurt your feet? This season's fashions? How your boyfriend / husband is being an insensitive jerk? Problems with the kids?

The point I am making is that they cannot really include you because you have nothing in common with them - you lack the experiences they undergo on a daily basis.

I hope all this gives you an idea of what RLE is really about. It is not inserted in the process just to make your life awkward and people who skip RLE are taking one hell of a chance with their life.

[Apples Mk.II]

Let us say they include you. What will you contribute to casual conversation? Will you complain about your bra hurting? A nice perfume you found? Good recipes? Your favourite boy band? Make up? Heels that do not hurt your feet? This season's fashions? How your boyfriend / husband is being an insensitive jerk? Problems with the kids?

Generational barrier. I only have access to the "old group"They only talk about their sons and daughters, an they treat me more like a son, sadly. In the "young" group, I am completely excluded.
I was wondering about why do I feel that sad at lunch time. When I try to get into men's conversation, I miserably fail. If I show to women that I am well versed in topics I should not know about, they just question my sexual orientation.

Thanks, all of this clears a lot the things I could not understand. The cause for this is that I have almost no social life, so I usually miss a lot of the working gears of life.

Obviously not coming out at work until the GID is fully confirmed with the therapist. There is only one person I would tell to (the one that already has suspicions, was really worried about when I entered in depression and started to lose health, and still asks me from time to time what happened.

men will invade your personal space without warning. Aggressiveness back will not. No one likes an aggressive woman.

Over my life, the only physical contact I have had is from the beatings, so touching from men is a no-go, and I already don't like the space invasion from men. Sitting in the metro, trying to take the minimum possible space, and the first walking smelly cock that appears taking as much space as possible, as if his damned croth needed to breathe. It is already irritating, so it will only get worse. Can't they freaking learn manners? If I allow this, I am losing myself.

[Stephe]

Not all the woman I meet go with hugs and kisses.

Uh... because you are still living as a man?

But what happens if during RLE you are not perceived as a woman but a man in a dress, even with all the mannerisms and acting? (And the voice will take longer than the RLE, that if they find what's wrong with my system).

Paralysis due to over analysis is what I am seeing. You can easily talk yourself out of doing this and ignore all the advice people who have done this before have given you.

As others said most women are happy to guide you down the path to womanhood if you are receptive to advice. I've had several over the last few years pull me to the side and tell me "Don't wear sleeveless tops ever again, they look horrible on you". And she was right.  Debating their advice and knowing better than them (when you have zero personal experience) is yet another social thing guys do that women don't. You may believe you are 'already there' as a woman except your face/HRT but you really aren't. I could post dozens of pictures of women with very ugly/manly faces and NO ONE would call them a man in a dress. 

[Ave]

Let us say they include you. What will you contribute to casual conversation? Will you complain about your bra hurting? A nice perfume you found? Good recipes? Your favourite boy band? Make up? Heels that do not hurt your feet? This season's fashions? How your boyfriend / husband is being an insensitive jerk? Problems with the kids?

The point I am making is that they cannot really include you because you have nothing in common with them - you lack the experiences they undergo on a daily basis.

I hope all this gives you an idea of what RLE is really about. It is not inserted in the process just to make your life awkward and people who skip RLE are taking one hell of a chance with their life.

THIS!!! A thousand times this!

Right now you present as a 30 year old man, if you came up to me and my friends and started chatting (just out of high school age) we ARE going to go WTF???!

You have to think about how other people feel, and how others see you.

[Apples Mk.II]

Uh... because you are still living as a man?

No, one of those countries where it is far too common to greet with kisses on the first time(man-woman), and I hate it.

You may believe you are 'already there' as a woman except your face/HRT but you really aren't.

I am practically nowhere, and every day it seems further, although practically it is my fault for overthinking before the actual therapy. I am again in one of my depression fits, and it is just wasting good advice on me. Everything seemed clear when I finally decided to start the therapy after not being able to bear it anymore, but trying to plan in advance on my own without professional help is just making a mess of everything.


Thanks and sorry, I will be leaving until the therapy has progressed (If I don't walk away and hide again for another ten years) a bit. I am not exactly being useful  to myself or anybody else at this moment.