Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Test Levels and Prescription

Started by kathy bottoms, September 17, 2012, 04:09:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rachl

Quote from: A on September 25, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
Okay, I'm not an expert, but I could find this. (By the way, sorry, I had misread Entrace for Estrace.)

-The product you mentioned, entrace. It does not exist, from the looks of it. See for yourself: Wikipedia and Google are silent on the very existence of such a thing.

-You might mean estrone, which is an oestrogen with much weaker properties than estradiol, and the primary oestrogen in post-menopausal. I don't have the details, but I think when there's an excess of estradiol, it can be converted to estrone, and vice versa (though the former happens much more often). Once it's estrone, it can in turn be converted into estrone sulfate, which stays in the body for a long time. Then it can act as a sort of storage: estrone sulfate is converted to estradiol if it's lacking.

And of course, like with pretty much every product in excess in the blood, excess estradiol can most probably be excreted through urine.

So uhm... I'm not sure why he literally doesn't care about estradiol levels. It is true that testosterone can block the effects of estradiol (hence why most FTMs just take testosterone, period), but still... Your T levels are mainly dependent upon your T blocker, whilst your E levels rely on the actual E you take. It doesn't make much sense to me to just ignore it.

Going by that logic, you'd give someone just T blockers and expect breasts to grow. :x

I'm not sure I understand them, really. Of course, if T is still not under control, the E level is not all that important, but once T is low, I'm pretty sure the E level is a very important information...

You should really ask your endo directly. Therapists, no matter how experienced, aren't hormone experts, after all.

Estrace is a brand name for oral estradiol...it exists.
  •  

DanicaCarin

Quote from: Stephe on September 25, 2012, 09:40:27 AM
My doc said the e level vary so much over the course of a day, when meds are taken etc that the E numbers aren't a good judge. That she could tell how effective the meds were by watching my T levels. That said my T levels never changed a lot but I now have B cup breasts and she stopped testing for T on me. I probably am NOT normal in my reaction or blood level response to the meds but I guess I am an example of what can happen.

If -you- are paying out of pocket, I would ask to only test things that have to be tested to make sure you are healthy. Take a reasonable dose and watch for results/how you feel. It's never a good idea to blast large doses of anything into your body wanting rapid change. The best results will happen over a few years, not trying to force the changes to happen in 6 months with extra high dosages. I see people say all the time "You want -blank- level of this and -blank- level of that." The human body isn't that simple and there is no cookie cutter path.


Well, as it turns out, I don't pay a dime for tests because they are covered under my insurance. As would be my therapy visits($30), Endo visits($30), and scripts for generics $15. But I couldn't find a therapist in my network or one who tok my insurance, and I have no Endo, just an "EX" online therapist. :P

But My PCP is aware of my "Transness" and has had some experience with it. She is monitoring all my primary functions and for the total T levels. My dosages, are about average from what I can tell. so I was wondering why my "care givers" where not worried about E levels like other here. ??? 

Confused as always..

Dani
  •  

Stephe

Quote from: A on September 25, 2012, 07:46:35 PM

So uhm... I'm not sure why he literally doesn't care about estradiol levels. It is true that testosterone can block the effects of estradiol (hence why most FTMs just take testosterone, period), but still... Your T levels are mainly dependent upon your T blocker, whilst your E levels rely on the actual E you take. It doesn't make much sense to me to just ignore it.


E does affect your T levels being produced in many MTF and how much T is suppressed by the E is a better indicator than attempting to get any sort of accurate blood test on the E. Some people take just E, no t blocker and their T levels plummet. Some people like me take a T blocker and E and their "T levels" don't change (according to a blood test, even tho male sex drive goes away..), much but still have major body changes. Clearly there are things going on these tests aren't measuring, at least with me.

Quote from: A on September 25, 2012, 07:46:35 PM

Going by that logic, you'd give someone just T blockers and expect breasts to grow. :x

I'm not sure I understand them, really. Of course, if T is still not under control, the E level is not all that important, but once T is low, I'm pretty sure the E level is a very important information...


It would be nice if the human body was this simple. My T levels barely changed from pre HRT to now according to blood tests but I have B cup boobs now and 1/4 or less the male sex drive I used to have.  And yes being on spiro for a year I started to grow boobs with no E. The below talks about how inaccurate these blood tests are.

http://www.womeninbalance.org/pdf/Kenna.pdf

http://www.custommedicine.com.au/hormone-analysis/

According to research I have done, if you are on any sort of transdermal E, a blood test is a total waste of time.

I think many people get way too obsessed with these level numbers and trying to force them into a certain range of "normal for a female" like somehow that will make them bio-identical to a natal female? At least for me, my goal was to feminize my body without causing damage to my body or to shorten my lifespan. A natal female takes years to develop breasts etc yet we seem to want this to happen in 6 months or less. I see posts about "I have been on HRT for 4 weeks and don't see boobs yet". Seriously??

Take a reasonable dose of meds and be patient. If you see no changes in 6 months, then it's time to consider a dose increase/change. Have someone monitor liver function levels, potassium/electrolytes and anything else a doctor wants to check to make sure these are not having an adverse effect on your health.

From everything I am reading a saliva test is much more accurate indication of hormone levels but given they will change based on when you took your meds and the time of the day your body secretes natural ones etc, this has the same limits on accuracy that a blood test does in many ways. The best indicator IMHO is how you feel, what your sex drive is like and are you feeling/seeing any results, i.e. are your boobs tender etc. I can tell when my T goes up or when there is no E in my system and when I have overdone either. You have to become aware of how you feel and what is going on with your body.
  •  

DanicaCarin

Quote from: kathy b on September 25, 2012, 09:57:38 AM
Your body will naturallyt convert estradiol to several estrogen products.  I seem to remember there are three main estrogens Estradiol, Estrone, and Estriol.  Can't remember exactly what my Endo said about them.  But he did say that when a person takes very high doses of estrogen the body converts it and filters out some of the breakdown byproducts.  These excess filtered strogen products are sometimes stored in body fat, or eliminated in urine.

Thanks Kathy... Yeah... I had read about those.... I just can't believe this person is so incompetent to be practicing! ???
  •  

DanicaCarin

Quote from: A on September 25, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
Okay, I'm not an expert, but I could find this. (By the way, sorry, I had misread Entrace for Estrace.)

-The product you mentioned, entrace. It does not exist, from the looks of it. See for yourself: Wikipedia and Google are silent on the very existence of such a thing.

-You might mean estrone, which is an oestrogen with much weaker properties than estradiol, and the primary oestrogen in post-menopausal. I don't have the details, but I think when there's an excess of estradiol, it can be converted to estrone, and vice versa (though the former happens much more often). Once it's estrone, it can in turn be converted into estrone sulfate, which stays in the body for a long time. Then it can act as a sort of storage: estrone sulfate is converted to estradiol if it's lacking.

And of course, like with pretty much every product in excess in the blood, excess estradiol can most probably be excreted through urine.

So uhm... I'm not sure why he literally doesn't care about estradiol levels. It is true that testosterone can block the effects of estradiol (hence why most FTMs just take testosterone, period), but still... Your T levels are mainly dependent upon your T blocker, whilst your E levels rely on the actual E you take. It doesn't make much sense to me to just ignore it.

Going by that logic, you'd give someone just T blockers and expect breasts to grow. :x

I'm not sure I understand them, really. Of course, if T is still not under control, the E level is not all that important, but once T is low, I'm pretty sure the E level is a very important information...

You should really ask your endo directly. Therapists, no matter how experienced, aren't hormone experts, after all.

Thanks A...

No, it was Entrace he said. It was over the phone, but it wasn't Estrone or any other for of Estrogen or what Kathy said it breaks down to. I know that T blockers alone, in high doses can cause breast grown and sexual dysfunction. But I was more concerned with why E levels were not being checked, when all of your Endos are concerned to E levels down to the ENDO association approved levels. ::)

But, again.. Thanks A aka "SWEETS"! :P
  •  

DanicaCarin

Quote from: Stephe on September 26, 2012, 09:04:35 AM
E does affect your T levels being produced in many MTF and how much T is suppressed by the E is a better indicator than attempting to get any sort of accurate blood test on the E. Some people take just E, no t blocker and their T levels plummet. Some people like me take a T blocker and E and their "T levels" don't change (according to a blood test, even tho male sex drive goes away..), much but still have major body changes. Clearly there are things going on these tests aren't measuring, at least with me.


It would be nice if the human body was this simple. My T levels barely changed from pre HRT to now according to blood tests but I have B cup boobs now and 1/4 or less the male sex drive I used to have.  And yes being on spiro for a year I started to grow boobs with no E. The below talks about how inaccurate these blood tests are.

http://www.womeninbalance.org/pdf/Kenna.pdf

http://www.custommedicine.com.au/hormone-analysis/

According to research I have done, if you are on any sort of transdermal E, a blood test is a total waste of time.

I think many people get way too obsessed with these level numbers and trying to force them into a certain range of "normal for a female" like somehow that will make them bio-identical to a natal female? At least for me, my goal was to feminize my body without causing damage to my body or to shorten my lifespan. A natal female takes years to develop breasts etc yet we seem to want this to happen in 6 months or less. I see posts about "I have been on HRT for 4 weeks and don't see boobs yet". Seriously??

Take a reasonable dose of meds and be patient. If you see no changes in 6 months, then it's time to consider a dose increase/change. Have someone monitor liver function levels, potassium/electrolytes and anything else a doctor wants to check to make sure these are not having an adverse effect on your health.

From everything I am reading a saliva test is much more accurate indication of hormone levels but given they will change based on when you took your meds and the time of the day your body secretes natural ones etc, this has the same limits on accuracy that a blood test does in many ways. The best indicator IMHO is how you feel, what your sex drive is like and are you feeling/seeing any results, i.e. are your boobs tender etc. I can tell when my T goes up or when there is no E in my system and when I have overdone either. You have to become aware of how you feel and what is going on with your body.

Hey Stephe...

Its not really a matter of me not getting the changes I would like to see, as much as understanding why some Endos are monitoring E levels and my "les than confidence inspiring" therapist is a "BOOB".  ???

Dani
  •  

DanicaCarin

Quote from: rachl on September 26, 2012, 07:55:28 AM
Estrace is a brand name for oral estradiol...it exists.

Thanks Rachl,

Its that he said the Entrace was a biproduct, not a brand name... ???

Tnx

Dani
  •  

rachl

  •  

Stephe

Quote from: DaniStarr on September 26, 2012, 09:24:31 AM
Hey Stephe...

Its not really a matter of me not getting the changes I would like to see, as much as understanding why some Endos are monitoring E levels and my "les than confidence inspiring" therapist is a "BOOB".  ???

Dani

I tried to explain. Blood tests of E levels aren't very accurate and can make people think they need to change the dosage when in fact there is nothing wrong. Both of the people I have seen about HRT (one retired after 25 years of doing TS HRT) saw no reason to test E levels. Why "some" do it, I have no idea.  Maybe they just do it out of habit. Doctors are human and not all are sharp/right about everything. Actually from my own experience there are a LOT of bad ones.

If you don't like this -not testing E levels- and feel your doctor is a "boob", then change docs to one who follows this other school of thought. From what I have read on the subject + what two different doctors have told me, blood testing E levels, esp in a MTF taking meds, seems to be a waste of everyone's time. Maybe people like to be told "You have E levels in the female range"? I'm just not sure.

All I know is I'm not interested in those hormone levels/numbers from a blood test any longer as they clearly in my case have no relevance to the changes I have seen in my own body. According to my blood work, nothing should be happening. Maybe the doc you are seeing is an idiot but it wouldn't be just because he isn't testing E levels.

Stephe
  •  

kathy bottoms

Quote from: Stephe on September 26, 2012, 01:25:15 PM
I tried to explain. Blood tests of E levels aren't very accurate and can make people think they need to change the dosage when in fact there is nothing wrong.

I checked into this and the estradiol hemihydrate that is used in my patch is one estrogen compound that is difficult to test.  I'm glad you brought this up as part of your post.  Seems like anything that's prescribed in very low levels, like micrograms, is going to have results that are difficult to measure.
  •  

Stephe

Quote from: kathy b on September 26, 2012, 09:14:17 PM
I checked into this and the estradiol hemihydrate that is used in my patch is one estrogen compound that is difficult to test.  I'm glad you brought this up as part of your post.  Seems like anything that's prescribed in very low levels, like micrograms, is going to have results that are difficult to measure.

I know I read people saying how dosages have to be individualized but I really believe there is a standard "normal" dosage for MTF HRT that is known to give results. The less you have to take, the less strain you put on your system. I would NOT take more than the upper limits of what is recommended for females to take yet I see people taking 4X that amount. As you just stated, some patches and cremes won't show up in a blood test so if someone insists of making your blood test hormone levels match some "ideal", you could end up taking WAY more meds than you needed to feminize your body.

I think common sense should prevail here. There are concerns of heart attack, stroke and DVT etc at the "max dose" females should take and people feel it's OK to take 4X that much?? I'm on a "max dose" suggested for females + the "standard" spiro dose and that's all I'm going to take. It's feminizing my body over time and that's all I want.
  •  

Asfsd4214

Quote from: Stephe on September 26, 2012, 10:06:10 PM
I know I read people saying how dosages have to be individualized but I really believe there is a standard "normal" dosage for MTF HRT that is known to give results. The less you have to take, the less strain you put on your system. I would NOT take more than the upper limits of what is recommended for females to take yet I see people taking 4X that amount. As you just stated, some patches and cremes won't show up in a blood test so if someone insists of making your blood test hormone levels match some "ideal", you could end up taking WAY more meds than you needed to feminize your body.

I think common sense should prevail here. There are concerns of heart attack, stroke and DVT etc at the "max dose" females should take and people feel it's OK to take 4X that much?? I'm on a "max dose" suggested for females + the "standard" spiro dose and that's all I'm going to take. It's feminizing my body over time and that's all I want.

While I overall certainly agree people shouldn't take any more than they need, I don't quite agree with your argument.

"There are concerns" doesn't say anything, there are concerns that cell phones and aspartame cause cancer despite a myriad of evidence failing to support any such hypothesis.

In terms of HRT, the research available is somewhat conflicted but generally in support of blood clotting risks last I checked, however this is hard to translate to us because it is all done in postmenopausal cisfemales, evidence suggests that HRT given at younger ages for non-menopausal reasons (i.e. the ages you would expect to have that level of hormone in your system as opposed to an age when you wouldn't) is of lower risk.

The 'max dose' is worked out for a certain set of circumstances that don't always apply to us.

Ultimately it depends from person to person.

Regarding your heart disease concerns...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934310009265
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/2/255.full
  •  

kathy bottoms

Hi Stephe:

Had an appointment with my GT today and told her I was upset and depressed about the low dose of the new patch.  And that I had trouble finding any kind of equivlency for estradiol hemihydrate in order to relate it to other types and methods of medicating.  She said low doses are necessary with this patch due to serious concerns about blood pressure, thrombosis, breast cancer, etc.  Especially for tg women over 45 or 50 who start wih higher doses.  So, I just need to be patient.  The Endo said the same thing last monday, but I just didn't want to listen.

Anyway, finally accepted that I'll be on this patch the way it is for at least three months, and maybe six.  I'm just happy to be on prescribed meds now.

Kathy

  •  

A

Stephe: Oh, right, I'm sorry. I was disregarding spironolactone, which, if I remember well, doesn't reduce T levels all that much in some cases but still blocks its action. I take cyproterone and it destroyed all T in me, and my girlfriend on spiro had that too... Apparently, spiro varies in what it does. Unless it's a story of bio-available/total testosterone.

But still, since spiro sometimes lowers T significantly, sometimes doesn't, something remains: it has the potential to have most of the impact on T levels, the way I understand it. So it makes HRT management purely based upon T levels pretty bad if you ask me.

And anyway, even if it's of limited use, which I seriously doubt, why skip a test entirely? It's not true that it's entirely useless; no one can say that. And I'm pretty sure the expensive, long-analysis test is the testosterone one anyway, estradiol being common and fast.

And uhm, my endo prescribed me a blood test while I was only on transdermal HRT, while he knew my testosterone was already too low for even the average female. Pretty sure he was testing estradiol, and that it has a use in determining what dose I'm going to need.

This is all going by feeling, but all this sounds logical to me.

DaniStarr: I think you have the proof that your therapist doesn't know what he's talking about. Or was very, very tired when he called, and said some nonsense word instead of estrone.
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
No more updates
  •  

Stephe

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on September 26, 2012, 11:05:34 PM
While I overall certainly agree people shouldn't take any more than they need, I don't quite agree with your argument.

"There are concerns" doesn't say anything, there are concerns that cell phones and aspartame cause cancer despite a myriad of evidence failing to support any such hypothesis.


*sigh* So you think the risks of DVT from being on HRT is up there with cellphone and diet Coke risks?

From your link:

"A recent large meta-analysis examined the risk of venous thromboembolism in women using hormone therapy (11). The odds ratio of first time venous thromboembolism in current users of oral estrogen therapy was significantly elevated, with a relative risk of 2.5 and CI of 1.9–3.4."

That sounds like a real risk, not a suspected one.

" Although current studies are under way to determine whether CHD risk will be impacted by the timing of initiation, the cancer risks are present at all ages, and some seem to persist after stopping hormone therapy."

Doesn't seem this risk only affects old people.

"Because of the potential harms of long-term use of MHT, including the long-term rising risk of breast and potentially lung and ovarian cancer, therapy should be discontinued after treatment of vasomotor symptoms or other menopause-related symptoms is no longer required."

Like everything else I have read, long term use of HRT, especially at high dosages, is risky to your health.

90% of what I see on these forums is people trying to get on higher dosages simply to speed up the process. Most have been on HRT for less than a year, many times they have been on the for less than 3 months and want to dosage cranked up because they haven't seen any results yet. The max safe dose isn't based on "I want big boobs in 9 months", it's based on balancing the -long term- health risks against short term gains.

Yes the short term risks are lower for a 20 year old person but also these younger people are going to be on HRT for a much longer period of time than someone starting HRT at 50. No one really knows what the risks of being on HRT for 30 years is, there are no studies on what HRT on a male body really is risking health wise. Maybe I'm being stupid but I'd rather not be the person who finds out it kills you, causes cancer or causes a stroke just because I wanted to speed up the process taking large doses of the stuff.

  •  

Asfsd4214

Quote from: Stephe on September 27, 2012, 12:19:28 AM
*sigh* So you think the risks of DVT from being on HRT is up there with cellphone and diet Coke risks?

From your link:

"A recent large meta-analysis examined the risk of venous thromboembolism in women using hormone therapy (11). The odds ratio of first time venous thromboembolism in current users of oral estrogen therapy was significantly elevated, with a relative risk of 2.5 and CI of 1.9–3.4."

That sounds like a real risk, not a suspected one.

" Although current studies are under way to determine whether CHD risk will be impacted by the timing of initiation, the cancer risks are present at all ages, and some seem to persist after stopping hormone therapy."

Doesn't seem this risk only affects old people.

"Because of the potential harms of long-term use of MHT, including the long-term rising risk of breast and potentially lung and ovarian cancer, therapy should be discontinued after treatment of vasomotor symptoms or other menopause-related symptoms is no longer required."

Like everything else I have read, long term use of HRT, especially at high dosages, is risky to your health.

90% of what I see on these forums is people trying to get on higher dosages simply to speed up the process. Most have been on HRT for less than a year, many times they have been on the for less than 3 months and want to dosage cranked up because they haven't seen any results yet. The max safe dose isn't based on "I want big boobs in 9 months", it's based on balancing the -long term- health risks against short term gains.

Yes the short term risks are lower for a 20 year old person but also these younger people are going to be on HRT for a much longer period of time than someone starting HRT at 50. No one really knows what the risks of being on HRT for 30 years is, there are no studies on what HRT on a male body really is risking health wise. Maybe I'm being stupid but I'd rather not be the person who finds out it kills you, causes cancer or causes a stroke just because I wanted to speed up the process taking large doses of the stuff.

It's a complex subject and there are risks AS WELL as benefits.

Obviously estrogenic cancers are at increased risk with HRT, but are those risks any higher in trans people on HRT with an estrogen level the same as any other women in her 20s, that's a difficult one to answer.
  •  

Stephe

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on September 27, 2012, 12:27:17 AM
It's a complex subject and there are risks AS WELL as benefits.

Obviously estrogenic cancers are at increased risk with HRT, but are those risks any higher in trans people on HRT with an estrogen level the same as any other women in her 20s, that's a difficult one to answer.

Agreed, I personally am not interested in being a test dummy to find the answer.

Maybe I'm thinking overly simplistic but given there is a risk, everything I have read has said lower dosages lowers the risk and people should take the lowest dosage that produces results, be it relief from menopause symptoms or MTF feminization. It appears, in the case of menopausal women, that they are not raising the estrogen levels in their system higher than it was earlier in their lives, it's a -replacement- therapy and it still raises their risk for cancer. + clotting factors, blood pressure issues etc. We are assuming everyone taking this has an ideal BMI, eats healthy, never smoked, never drank excessively nor did drugs. I can't answer yes to all of those and know I'm not the only person who can't.

I personally feel given for most of us it's something we will be doing the remainder of our lives we should, like anything, be doing it in moderation. Clearly I feel the benifits are worth the risks but plan to mitigate the risk as much as possible and still get the benefits. It's why specific dosages and certain meds are banned from even being discussed here. HRT can be dangerous and that is something I rarely see discussed in trans forums.

HRT is a quality of life issue. While having a fem body and a pretty face is great, if getting cancer, a heart attack or having a stroke is what ends up happening then no, that would not improve the quality of my life.
  •  

kathy bottoms

Quote from: Stephe on September 27, 2012, 10:14:17 AM
HRT is a quality of life issue. While having a fem body and a pretty face is great, if getting cancer, a heart attack or having a stroke is what ends up happening then no, that would not improve the quality of my life.

Well said.  I was one of the high-dose and over anxious self meders.  Wised up in the last six months, and made a greater commitment to living this life the best way I can. 

But there's a certain fatalistic view when it comes to the horribly compelling need to take estrogen.  I fully understand why some girls feel so dependent on those levels, and I was right there with them until I talked again to the endo and had honest discussions with my therapist.

Kathy
  •