Can Gender shift?

[RebeccaFog]

Hi Everybody,

   I've been coming around for a while and have knocked myself out trying to comprehend the ideas available at this site.
   Over a year ago, I woke up to the fact that I had been suppressing my femininity for years and years and years. When I was a teenager, I knew I wanted to be a girl, but I had no way of really understanding the concept. I certainly didn't know people could change their sex. It was the 1970's. In my world, there was no idea of ->-bleeped-<-.

   So, I've been going to a gender clinic for 7 months and I have gotten approval for HRT. This whole time, I was feeling like a woman, but looking like a man. I felt like I was going to die sometimes when I saw beautiful women and I knew I'd never be them. I guess I was feeling a lot. I was dieing to get my hands on clothing I like. I was dieing to figure out my place in a transgendered world. I felt like I knew who I was and that I had found my people at last. I've been reading lots of books and websites. I totally identify with the MTF life stories I've read.

  Something strange happened about two weeks ago. I was riding on the train back from the gender clinic and I was thinking about my SO. She has had a really hard time with this and she has been in such pain that I can't even imagine what it was like for her. It occurred to me that, despite how badly I wanted the treatment, I was going to have to stop the process. My thought was that I just needed to put it all on hold. The one thing I can say about myself is that I can't live with the thought of putting another person in pain. It goes against my nature to be the source of agony for any human being.
  One of my alternate plans is to see a respected gender counselor whom has already accepted me as a patient. I am looking into alternative methods of treating my gender dysphoria. I need to have a counselor who has had experience with many people along the gender spectrum and who I can learn from as she learns to understand me as an individual.

  The strange part of this is that after I decided to pursue a different course, I became calm. I don't feel overtly feminine like I have for the past year. I'm still certain that I'm not male, though. I just feel like I'm me. There is no tension anymore. Is it possible for a person to have GID just come and go?


Looking forward to your thoughts,

Rebecca 

[TheBattler]

Rebecca,

We all change to some degree and yes - overtime your identification and change.

I am in the same situation as you. I am looking for another way out dispite knowing I have some GID. I have always identified as Male and eithen thought the 'I am female' thinking has started there is no way I am rushing into transistion. There has been many times I have wished I was female but I am not going to wish my life away and get into the "I will be happy when" thing.

For yourself now you have put transistion on hold there is no rush to do anything and hense there is no tension. You can settle down and be yourself and decide if you like it that way. This website has so many TS folk transistioning now you are not rushing to be one of them you can decide where you really need to go. I believe that if you need to go down the transistioning path you will but now you have stopped and looked for air you can look at other alternatives and make happiness not transistioning the goal. Will you be happy cross dressing when you feel the urge? Will you be happy dressing when your SO is not arround? What is really making you tick?

Alice

[Ms.Behavin]

Love can be very powerful.  I'm not sure gender can change, but it can go into remitance. My former feancee, now just girlfriend and I still have days when we wish for the past.  Yet for me that is not possible and she knows this too.   

If you and your SO feel that strongly, and the gender pressure is gone and it is possible for you, then by all means, follow the path that is easiest.  Thats really the key,  If it's easer being TS then be TS.  If it's not then it might have been a passing thought.  Or maybe in your case love is indeed stronger.  I wish you all the best.


Beni

[Yvonne]

Gender doesn't change.  I don't care what anybody says, gender is not a garnment that we can choose whenever we feel like it.

[Seshatneferw]

Rebecca, I can so relate to what you write.

I'm not quite as far on the path as you, but mine is clearly going in the same direction. Quite convinced that I'm female inside; male outside; socially just about in the middle of the spectrum. I'd be jumping at the chance to transition, except for two things. The minor one is that considering my work, it's impossible to ever transition fully -- the male past will always be there for anyone to see. In that sense, socially the transition would be mostly just changing my name, hair cut and the way I dress for more formal occasions. Is that such a big deal?

The other thing holding me back is my family. I'm very much committed to and in love with my wife. Neither of us wants to split, but there is a major chance that this will happen if I go all the way. The big questions, of course, are how much she can deal with and how much I have to do. We both fervently hope to be able to find a solution that we both can live with.

For now, I'm trying to accept the dichotomy of being female on the inside and male on the outside. It is, after all, something I will have to live with, on some level, even if I do transition. It will take quite a bit of time to figure out what I'm going to do with my body, but that's all right, it will also give time to try to find a new balance in the relationship. I'm fully of the opinion that my wife is the most important woman in my life; it's just that we both have to deal with the fact that there's this other woman too, myself.

Still, as you have found out, realising the truth helps a little with the tension.

Thank you for being in the same boat. It helps; I hope you get some comfort of that, too.

Hugs,

  Nfr

[Kendall]

I think Gender Identity at its core might not be able to shift. What I mean is that under your conscious somewhere in your conscious is a part of you that feels, knows, and IS a certain gender. Something more at the core of your brain that fits with gender behavior, characteristics, ideals, beliefs, social interaction, relationships, appearance, and acceptance with oneself. I believe it lies along a gender spectrum. Gender Roles on the other hand I think can change and are learnable. Same with gender communication styles. And I believe once can expresse their gender, Gender Expression, different ways, even different then one's gender identity. Gender anatomy certainly can be modified and changed.

I also know from experience one can cover and masks one's true identity with other concepts, beliefs, concepts. Something that only lasts for a limited amount of time, depending on how acceptable and how long one can take covering one's true identity.

I myself dont know enough about the core of one's gender identity, beyond my own. But from what I know, it can only be changed by massive intrussive techniques, and even then I am not sure if it just masks one's true gender identity or if it actually alters it. So my answer is "I dont know". But I am leaning more towards unchangable at the core. Though I know fluid gender roam a bit. My gender moves around some but stays balance around a somewhat fixed area. And straying too far away from that point creates a balance conflict eventually.

[debbiej]

Rebecca, Nfr, Alice, and others,

It is soooo good to know you are here struggling in much the same way that I am. I sometimes feel overwhelmed when I read posts of others who are further along and have chosen paths that are still uncomfortable for me (for reasons you have all related). They seem so certain, as well they should be, about the path they chose for themselves but we are all different and must find our own path and our own time line according to what feels right for us.

To relate my experience, Rebecca, with gender shift:

I had a very good week two weeks ago. Busier than usual for this time of year so I was feeling pretty good about my gender issues. They were not overwhelming me like they had been recently. I mentioned this to my therapist and she essentially asked me, "So what about everything you told me last week?" I then had to admit that it wasn't going away. Then things got hard again. It culminated with my wife in I in my office and me crying because of the stress of dealing with it all in a major way again. I couldn't get it out of my mind again. It seems to be getting easier the more I share with my wife and knowing that she is willing to help me whenever she can.

So my point? I find myself shifting in the way I perceive my gender issues from week to week and sometimes day to day and it often is because of outside influences. I don't know that my gender is really shifting but the degree of stress it causes certainly changes.

By the way my wife bought me a nice pink man's golf shirt and a lilac dress shirt yesterday and has ordered me a women's robe on line. She is affirming me and my gender and it has taken some of the stress of hurting her away. Little signs that she is willing to walk with me on this path for as far as she can go. Maybe all the way? I won't know until I/we get there (wherever there is!!)

Debbie

[Lucy]

Acceptance is the first stage of our journey and from there I find that we have to make choices, our gender may not change but the way we can deal with it certainly does. Our mind set is the most important tool for living with GID. When it is strong as you know it feels like you want to die but when in remition its quite possible to get on withj life.

I am glad that you have made a choice for you and your wife, it is a good thing that you have done. I hope to be able to do the same thing but my GID I dont thing will let me. I considering leting my wife go now just so I dont hurt her in the futor, Its not that I dont love her (cus I do) I just think that letting her have a new life not will hurt her less than in 10 or 20 years time.

I hope that it all works out well for you.

Luv Lucy

[Emerald]

Yes Rebecca, there are crossgender individuals who experience periodic male/female gender or gender identity oscillations (single persona, not Bi-gender). The gender shifts may be experienced on a daily basis or over much longer periods of time, perhaps even years. As with any gender variant type (except Transsexuals), those who gender-shift have been largely ignored by research studies. There is a great need for professional inquiry into the facets of gender diversity instead focusing on gender conflict - to include gender explorations, gender clarifications and how individuals can access avenues in search of personal growth. The blooming gender garden is much larger than those who are simply TS and CDing. I strongly expect you are one of the more beautiful but lesser known blossoms. Keep growing!
You too sweet Alice! And Lucy, Nfr, Debbie and everyone!

-Emerald 

[Kate]

  The strange part of this is that after I decided to pursue a different course, I became calm. I don't feel overtly feminine like I have for the past year.

It's very common. They call it the honeymoon: when you retreat back into the comfortable male facade for safety and a rest from all this. The weight lifts, you can breath again, the pressures you've put upon yourself are gone, and it feels like SUCH a relief.

The horrible thing about GID is it WILL have it's way. In time. That may not mean transition for you, I don't know... we all have different paths to follow to alleviate this thing. And maybe the male side IS real, and the feminine personality the fantasy. It's a difficult question you'll have to face up to.

But if it's GID, it WILL demand attention, to be addressed, to be "solved" somehow - regardless of any other considerations in your life. It's both reassuring and scary: if it is GID, it will eventually solve itself, dragging you along with it.

And how bumpy that ride becomes is entirely up to you. You can choose to fight against yourself until your dying breath to "spare" those around you... or you can surrender to it and try and minimize the damage as you go.

~Kate~

[RebeccaFog]

Wow!

   Thank you everybody for your thoughtful and supportive responses.

   I do not feel male. I think I just don't feel the pressure of the GID. If this is a honeymoon, then I intend to be prepared for when it ends.

   Ironically, last night after I wrote my original post, my girlfriend came to me and said that she has accepted my condition and that she feels better in general. I had to explain my new approach because, apparently, she hadn't grasped the meaning of what I had told her when I said I was now seeking knowledge rather than change. She's happy now. And, she has absorbed the process to the point that when my time does come to transition, she will be able to work with me.

  I'm at work and cannot get into a lot, but I have been examining the concept of gender expression. How do I want to express myself? or, how do I need to express myself? I'm glad that Ken / Kendra used that term. It has become one of the issues that is forefront in my mind.

  I also like the idea of being fluid in my understanding of myself. Fluidity is one of my traits and is present in the very way in which I think. I'm sure it is frustrating for the people I work for.

  Oh yeah, I was going to be quick.

  Other ideas:
   
  Over the course of Human history, there have been thousands of people like us. I want to understand these people better.

  I believe that there is a new day at dawn for people who have gender issues. I'm not even sure that the term "gender issues" has a right to exist. It may apply now to some of us, but someday, gender will not be an issue. The acceptance of true Gender expression will take some time to catch on, but guess what? We deserve to live and die on our own terms. I believe that we will get this basic human right. I believe that we are on our way to getting it right now.
  How am I doing my part? - At this time, I don't hide my gender issues from anyone. I am working to get the blue collar people I work with to understand gender issues (there's that term again). Even if they don't come to terms with it now, they will at point as we become more visible in this society. At some point, their children, or their parents, or their siblings, or their cousins, or their friends or even their selves are going to reveal themselves. It cannot be stopped.

   I also believe that the movement will happen despite governments and religions.

I'd better go.


Love love and more love

[tinkerbell]

Gender is innate and immutable.  If we were able to shift it, there wouldn't be any transsexuals and we wouldn't have to deal with a life full of pain and misery.

tink

[Butterfly]

Gender is innate and immutable.  If we were able to shift it, there wouldn\\\'t be any transsexuals and we wouldn\\\'t have to deal with a life full of pain and misery.

tink

Well put.  Its the same as asking: can you be a man today, a woman tomorrow and something else in-between the day after? I cant do that because Im a woman but people that have a gender queer identification can.  correct me if Im wrong please.

[Kate]

Can gender shift? God if I know. People are going to tend to answer that as they need to in order to explain themselves and justify what they want to do. Everyone has a personal narrative.

I will say this: I got more than I bargained for when I started transitioning. I made a wish, and oh my did I ever get it - and then some. Most of the people here seem to say they were always a woman, even before HRT, and that transitioning just gave them the proper physical context.

Not me. HRT and therapy and endless nights of sobbing fundamentally made someone totally new. I didn't really "change." I threw out the old model and started again. I don't think the same, and the world doesn't FEEL the same. At ALL.

It's only a metaphor, but it FEELS like I was stuck in some boy's body AND mind for decades, a parasite biding my time, a possessing demon spirit, slowly crowding him out inch by inch until we reached a tipping point and... he flickered out. This life is mine now, though I'm left with his mental hangups and insecurities which I'm learning to just drop, rather than fight. They were his battles, not mine. It's like being stuck on an airliner where the pilot suddenly passed out... so you grab the controls at the last second and try to fly the bloody thing yourself, the ground coming up fast... wait, this pedal does what? Pulling back on the stick works, right? Learn Kate, learn QUICK.

My needs are different. My desires are different. Some things that used to bother me I don't notice anymore, and things that I never noticed before now reduce me to tears. My food cravings are different. My musical tastes are different. My entertainment pleasures are different. I talk differently. I move differently.

Explain it as you will... maybe I just threw off a male shell, maybe the drugs changed me, maybe... maybe... who knows?

But I AM different. SOMEthing shifted, and continues to do so more and more every day.

Whether I want or like what's happened is totally irrelevant to me. It HAD to be this way.

~Kate~

P.S. I don't identify as a woman or transsexual, so please no one get mad thinking I'm misrepresenting women or TSs or whatever. I'm just me, Kate, that's all.

[katia]

P.S. I don't identify as a woman or transsexual, so please no one get mad thinking I'm misrepresenting women or TSs or whatever. I'm just me, Kate, that's all.

huh? im not mad.  im just in [shock] land right now.  what are you talking about?  you may not fully understand what you are, yet you're a woman. i "see" you as a woman on this site and so does everybody else.  what is this all about kate?

[LynnER]

Can gender change.......  I seriously dobut it, but thats me....

Its so sweet what your doing for your wife, and Im SO glad your not allready on HRT at this point... I stopped transition for my ex fience.... note I said EX...  everything was great till the depression and withdrawls from HRT kicked in... then everything fell appart....  GID wins every time if you truely have it...  if you dont, or its mild enough to controll it for the rest of your life... then by all means GO FOR IT, and save on the misery 

Best of luck and I pray it all works out for you  *Huggles*

[seldom]

Gender is innate and immutable.  If we were able to shift it, there wouldn\\\'t be any transsexuals and we wouldn\\\'t have to deal with a life full of pain and misery.

tink

Well put.  Its the same as asking: can you be a man today, a woman tomorrow and something else in-between the day after? I cant do that because Im a woman but people that have a gender queer identification can.  correct me if Im wrong please.

That is correct. Genderqueer/Androgyne identified people will strongly disagree with some of the statements about gender being unmovable.  I think there is a VERY detrimental thing for anybody who is transgendered to discount people where gender is not necessarily a static thing.  It is not something that is really out of choice for those people, for gender fluid and bi-gendered people it changes without warning and it is absolutely necessary to live in multiple genders.  To say it is man or it is woman and thats it and it doesn't shift...well thats being rather closed minded and discounting several individuals who KNOW that is not the case with them.   They don't have a choice with the shifts, but they do happen.  It is not like they are picking and choosing, it is part of their identity. 

I have noticed that MtF TS especially sometimes fall into the trap of thinking in a binary context (I am not one of them because I spent so much of my time hiding in a non-binary identity rather than running to masculinity which tends to be the case with most MtF TS.  Which may explain why many TS ONLY understand the binary.), and that it applies to everybody.  I can already gleam that from a couple of the responses there are a couple of people who fall into this category.  While you think it discounts TS, it doesn't, and while you think that state of being does not exist, it does for some people.  People who are bi-gendered, gender fluid, and other non-TS gender variants do exist, and they are out there.  Sometimes there is emotional distress that goes along with it, sometimes there is not. 

By in large this issue has divided the transgender community deeply and unnecessarily. It discounts peoples deep seeded experiences and identity on both sides of the issue.  For some people gender is something that seems to move around quite a bit, not out of choice, but rather out of their own human condition.  For others it is rather static. Some people relate directly to the androgyne/genderqueer experience because well...being transsexual or being cisgender just doesn't fit. 

I normally do not call people out on this issue, but whenever it comes up and I start to see the same issues arise again (TS discounting genderqueer/androgyne identities), well...I find it absolutely necessary to speak out.  Largely because I think the transgender community got beyond these issues, but there are always little reminders that this is not necessarily the case. 

While gender for most people cannot change and is static, for some people that is not the case.

To this day my best friend is genderqueer.   

For a transsexual to discount anybodies non-traditional gender identity, is a bit...hypocritical.  Gender identity for some people is not static or unmovable.  There are a great deal of different variations out there.  For most people gender is innate and immutable (be it TS or Cisgendered), but that is NOT the case for everybody, and discounting these individuals where their identity is constantly in flux, is something that is detrimental to the community as a whole. 

While it may be true that one cannot change ones gender identity, for some people their gender identity involves a state of frequent, or infrequent changes or shifts.  This is not a matter of choice, but rather a different state of being. 

[Seshatneferw]

P.S. I don't identify as a woman or transsexual, so please no one get mad thinking I'm misrepresenting women or TSs or whatever. I'm just me, Kate, that's all.

huh? im not mad.  im just in [shock] land right now.  what are you talking about?  you may not fully understand what you are, yet you're a woman. i "see" you as a woman on this site and so does everybody else.  what is this all about kate?

I believe the point she's trying to make is that labels like woman or transsexual are imposed by the society, and deep down, transition is not really about society but herself. In that sense, the ultimate goal is to become herself; becoming a woman is merely a by-product of that process.

  Nfr

[RebeccaFog]

   I was thinking that I am on a honeymoon. It hasn't been like I was feeling male, it was more like I was feeling like myself. I was being so entirely conscious of myself as a female that when I finally had a clear mind (no obsessing) I thought that something was wrong.  In other words, I've felt so good that I couldn't believe it.

   I think I should add a note concerning my change in thought and feeling.  I had been using the evil Ambien for a long time. I used to dole it out to myself to make sure I wasn't taking it every night, but last autumn, I started over doing it. I had communicated to Bri about it and she helped me to understand that I could exist without the medication.
   Part of what I am feeling is exuberation (excessively happy). My mind has cleared up. Almost all of my daily aches and pains are gone. I feel much much better. I think you will notice a quality change in my posts. I haven't felt like this in years. I'm confident, bright, and full of energy. Yikes! I'm sixteen again.

  Anyway, I really love the different takes you all have on the possibility of gender shifting.
  I am thinking that when a person is truly at their best, they are probably not aware of their gender or their gender issues. As a group, we Transpeople are probably the most totally self aware & self-conscious people on the face of the planet earth. Those moments when we can escape our hyper self-awareness probably feels the way I've been feeling.


Groove on, and don't ever doubt yourselves.

[Kendall]

I dont know much about multiple personality psychology, but from what I read a person can have multiple independent genders as well as ages, that dont remember each other even. I dont know how that would fit into any  gender theory, or definition of gender. Or explain how gender is.

Or also hypnosis. I dont know how the hypnosis I have seen on tv interacts with gender, and I have seen people become other genderlike behavior after being hypnotized even for entertainment purposes.