One person's fight against Androgyny.

[Kendall]

Was reading a opponent of androgyny's article just now. I try to quote the essential points of hir argument (Lee Grady). http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0229_Culture_of_Androgeny.html

(Also I mention this post in the androgyne section at the address https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,12977.0.html)

Does anyone remember a time in America when men were men, women were women, and the children could tell the difference?

In case you haven't noticed, the entertainment industry and the educational establishment have teamed up in the last few years to try their best at destroying traditional sex roles. We are told that in this enlightened era we need to learn to be "gender neutral." Men are encouraged to explore their "feminine side"; women are pressured to get out into the working world and fight their way up the corporate ladder.

Tries to relate to other's thirst to box sex and gender into separate roles just so "children could tell the difference".

The two evil entities of "entertainment industry" and "educational establishment" apparently controlled by Satan hirself is out to destroy the world by destroying the traditional sex roles, leading to destroying the family.

Every year's statistics break the previous records and ever more graphic images arise to signal the passing of the sexual concepts of masculine and feminine on which Americans have based their lives and expectations."4 But why is it that we are experiencing this sex role crisis?

Cultural Bone Rot

Hmmmmm Cultural Bone Rot. Such an image and scientific thinking. Maybe sie will present evidence to support hir claims of such Rot. Based lives and expectations... ok?

George Gilder calls it sexual suicide. It could also be called God's cultural judgment.

Honestly the "Sexual Suicide" I give hir props for being bringing another visual image.  I would have used maybe a term like Sexual Equalizer, or Natural Gender Free Expression.

Romans 1:21-27).

This passage outlines the systematic breakdown of sex roles and the entire family structure itself - a structure which God designed to be the foundation of a healthy society.

Brings in the christian God (well Paul's writer writing as God, or almost becomes God) as a Gender Judge. Not only that but brings in almost a medical term of the society's Health as being determined partially by one's adherence to social roles, and traditional family structure.

[For those of you not christian (like myself) Paul is not an original Apostle. Sie is one that supposedly saw Jesus after the resurrection, and I guess replaced Judas Iscariot according to some belief. But never knew the Jesus while he was alive. And is in fact Roman, not Jewish. Was named Saul. And despite never knowing Jesus, went on to write an amazing 13 books in the new testament, and practically changed christianity single handedly. Changed the Jewish customs and merged it with Roman or Gentile customs, despite the weariness of Peter. And was not really accepted by other original apostles, but popularity grew with the Romans, the real original growth area of christianity, which essentially died in Israel.] 

This intellectual depravity, as it progresses in intensity, brings about a twisting and a perverting of all that is natural and normal. And if we interpret Paul's comments to the Romans correctly, it would appear that sexual habits and roles are the ultimate target of this cultural bone rot process. When a society has divorced itself from God, the final result will be that men stop being men, women stop being women, and the institutions of marriage and family are destroyed.

Guess I am out to destroy families and marraiges by creating social bone rot.

Conclusion and Call to Action

We cannot allow maleness and femaleness to drift together into a vague, unisexual zone of neutrality. We cannot allow monogamous marriage to become just one of several legally accepted lifestyles. We cannot allow federal economic policies to cripple and dismember the family structure.

Returning to pro-family policies will not be easy. It will require real men to stand up in the public arena to challenge the anti-gender activists. It will demand real women to defend the paramount role of traditional motherhood. But we cannot sit idly by while the social scientists plan America's sexual suicide. The culture which refuses to acknowledge and honor the differences between the sexes will neuter itself, and ultimately fade away into a childless oblivion.

Calls out "Real Men" and "Real Women". Hearing that makes me cringe. And brings me thoughts of sign carrying , sometimes violent anti-gender anti orientation activists. I guess this person doesnt help change diapers, do dishes, cooks food, watches the children, nor any of that "girl stuff".

Ok, guess I am just a family destroying, social rotting, marraige breaking, plague to society. Sorry but reading this just made me sick to my stomach of absurd fantasy like babble, and excuses for ill treatment to gender variants. All backed by no evidence of social decay except social babble about federal day cares, increase in gay marraige, referrence to ancient Rome and Greece, destruction of child bearing, as well as Michael Jackson referrence, two evil entities (entertainment and education) destroying family and society, and bible references from Paul.

KK

[J.T.]

uh, yeah... i don't even pay attention to religious arguments.

[Casey]

The number of male flight attendants rose from none in 1960 to a current total of over 10,000. Other traditionally feminine occupations also have experienced a surge of male interest, all the way from telephone operators to male strippers;

The author cites these, among others, as "some of the shocking developments which are taking place in relation to male and female roles". First, telephone operators were originally men. Second, it seems to me from my days as a Catholic that stripping was a bad thing, no matter who did it. It ties in with that whole "you'll burn in hell for your sexual perversion" thing. Third, pilots were the original flight attendents and they were male also, so nana nana boo boo.

This person obviously lives in the Bay of Fundie (purposely spelled wrong) on the Luna Sea (say that fast). People like this exist to balance out the tiny minority on the other side of the bell curve who have an unbelievably strong grip on reality.

Walk away KK. I'm sure most people strongly disagree with the author's opinions. There's no sense giving them publicity. The author should have heeded Mark Twain's words: it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Let's save our strength for those who can make a logical arguement against androgyny. 

[Attis]

It is explained very simply in a Bible passage penned by the Apostle Paul, which he wrote to the Christians in Rome at a time when the imperial capital was well on its way to becoming an androgynous society. In this classic epistle he describes in detail the fate of a culture which rejects God's authority and His immutable laws...

First, this author seems to be using the Bible to make a claim. Historically the Bible has been in error on many things, especially the on the issue of why Rome fell. Rome fell because it got too big, too fast, and it couldn't digest the cultural variation. When they let non-Romans become Roman soldiers that was the end of the Roman Empire, simply put, not effeminacy, not women getting facial hair, but simply letting the barbarians they tried to eradicate become their guards at their gates.

Second, the rest of the article uses terms like "Cultural Rot" and what not, without validating what is "Cultural Rot" and what not. It just seems to me the writer of this article has no experience with trangendered people, and probably would say the same exact things about transsexuals [mtf and ftm] as well, only because of his ignorance. And more so, the fact he couldn't spell the word ANDROGYNY correctly, shows me he probably isn't too keen on the queen's English either, so I don't know if this writer is very professional just on two sub points here.

And then the Whopper of a quote...

Michael Jackson, the epitome of 1980s androgynous chic, paints a clear picture in the minds of our youth that you don't have to be male or female - you can be both.

Where did M.J. ever declare himself androgynous? Where did M.J. ever consider himself transgendered? For the record, he may seem androgynous or transgendered, but that doesn't mean he is. By this author's logic Liberace was transgendered, even though in his private life he was a gay man. So, I don't have much faith in the logic of this writer at all, since he cannot provide proof that M.J. is an androgyne or transgendered.

In short, this article is a hack writer piece, it wouldn't even get past college level English Composition, not because of the tone of the topic, but rather the lack of coherence, lack of proof, and consistency in concepts. He bounces between his views, and a few quotes from the Bible without even tying it together properly. He doesn't provide a consistent evaluation, nor contrasts his examples with other examples as to better illustrate his claim. Ultimately, this is not even a significant article, and it should be file-13'd right into the trash bin.

-- Brede

[RebeccaFog]

    These really are the type of people we need to keep an eye on. Just in case the guy actually does start a petition for a law, or even becomes a congressperson or senator.

    I wonder if he talks like that in public?

[ChildOfTheLight]

Also, he can't spell androgyny.  Here on the internets, that's grounds for immediate dismissal of all succeeding arguments. 

[Kendall]

Ok.... I did my editing, and I think this is what the author.....ummm.... meant to say or something like this.....



Does anyone remember a time in America when men and women fought for individual values such as personal freedoms? And the children could feel proud knowing their parents were standing up for what is right.

In case you haven't noticed, the religious right and the political establishments have teamed up in the last few years to try their best at destroying sex role freedom. We are told that in this christian social political era we need to learn to be "gender specific." Men are encouraged to explore their "manly side" by working for the family and providing while women; women are pressured to staying home, raising kids, and being a domestic servant to the man.

Every year's statistics break the previous records and ever more graphic images arise to signal the need of the sexual equality concepts of masculine and feminine on which Americans can base their lives and expectations. But why is it that we are experiencing this sex role exploring, blending, and fulfillment?

Cultural Enlightenment (awakening and strengthening).

One can call it sexual birth. It could also be called Nature's cultural judgment.

Sandra Bem's passages outline the systematic strengthening of sex roles and the entire family structure itself - a structure which nature designed to be the foundation of a healthy society.

This intellectual gift, as it progresses in intensity, brings about a straightening and a sacredness of all that is natural and normal.  And if we interpret Sandra Bem's comments to the others correctly, it would appear that sexual habits and roles are the ultimate target of this cultural enlightenment process. When a society has partnered itself with nature, the final result will be that men can be who they really are; women can be who they really are, and the partnerships, loving relationships,  and family are strengthened.

We should allow maleness and femaleness to drift together into a individual personal choice, unisexual zone of neutrality. We should allow monogamous partnerships of all types to become just one of several legally accepted lifestyles. We should allow federal economic policies to heal and strengthen the individual family structures.

Moving to modern family policies will not be easy. It will require individuals to stand up in the public arena to join the gender activists. It will demand all lifestyles to defend the paramount role of parenthood. But we cannot sit idly by while the antagonists hinder America's sexual birth. Trying to hold on to  culture which refuses to acknowledge and honor the differences between people and gender will neuter itself, and ultimately fade away into a powerless , unnatural, and choiceless oblivion.


...Ok there, makes more sense. I just wanted to see If I could use almost the same words to present an opposing or different argument, proving that the first argument didnt really state any facts. Just a bunch of power words and jargon. Mine also doesnt say anything and presents no facts to back it up, and is just as worthless as hir's.  Just a propoganda.

I also turned Paul into Sandra Bem, a sorta apostle of androgyny that has written books about the benefits of androgyny from studies. I sorta think its a new testament of androgyny.

[shawnael]

Leaders of mainline Protestant denominations have called for the removal of "sexist language" in the Bible and church hymns, proposing that God Himself is both male and female

Even though the Bible already states that God is "neither man nor woman."

[Dryad]

Yet is also states that God is the Father who protects you and the Mother who nourishes you.
God is neither man nor woman. God is the Father and the Mother. That's enough for me to assume that god is both male and female, neither man nor woman and a father and mother. It's enough for me to call this god androgynous.

[Danielle_oc_ca]

The biblical "Go forth and multiply" thing is what people use to justify unlimited precreation. However, I think someone forgot what must have been the rest of the statement. Which said something like "up to the sustainable carrying capacity capacity of your environment" Something easy to forget in a time when the earth was still seen as infinite.

In some ways I see our removal of ourselves from the gene pool, myself included (OK, I had one chiild before doing it). as not an evil thing like the Bible thumpers say but as a peaceful and kind alternative to mass starvation and the raping of the planet that unlimited reproduction would bring. It is the natural way for population control by an intelligent species, one with no surviving predators, that can see the planet is already past it's sustainable carrying capacity.

[RebeccaFog]

Even if they accepted us not procreating, the Bible humpers would probably increase their own productivity as if they were ramping up for a war of some kind.


        > I'm sorry, did I misspell that word?
           Maybe I should not put ideas like 'war' in their minds. We may end up like the X-Men.

[Laurry]

Well Praise the Lord and Pass the Biscuits!

I was raised in a, not just Christian but Southern Baptist, home and spent most of my formative years heading to church every time the doors opened.  I still consider myself to be a Christian, though I rarely attend services any more.  I mention this so that you will know that I am not just jumping on the band wagon to condemn these folks, but rather to add weight to my observations.

Yes, it's true that the Bible condemns homosexuality.  Ask anyone you see wearing a suit on Sunday at your local restaurant, and they will be quick to point it out.  Sadly, what they fail to realize is that the Bible also condemns any sex outside marriage, (regardless of the sex of the participants), even thinking about sex with someone you are not married to is condemned.  So is lying, cheating, stealing, laziness, greed, envy, and pride.  It is a stacked deck (on purpose).  As a human, it is impossible for you to not sin.  I've studied the Bible for many years, and I've yet to see a chart or table showing which sin is worse than another.  Sin is sin...only us humans have decided which sins are worse than the others...in God's eye, they are all the same.

Sadly, these same people who are screaming the loudest about the blurring of the male/female line are often the same people who are, at the very least, dealing with issues of pride, envy, greed or lust.

Maybe they should remember the words Matthew recorded in Chapter 7, verses 3-5 (King James Version)

³"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? ⁴How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? ⁵You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Or maybe:

John 8:7 (New International Version)
   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."


If the church back then was like the church now, no wonder Jesus chose to hang out with the prostitutes and tax collectors.

........Laurie

[shiva]

The Boy Scouts of America, after fighting several costly legal battles, announced last year that they will not bar women from becoming leaders of scout troops

This bit was a little ->-bleeped-<-e. Let Boy Scouts have male leaders and Girl Scouts have female ones, I say, otherwise have the Unisex scouts with androgynous leaders. Hey, that doesn't sound too bad.

As for people using the Bible to condemn people... It also says 'Judge not.' Funny how people ignore one command in order to blast other people with other commands.

[Hypatia]

I agree that Sandra Lipsitz Bem is an awesome researcher and writer on feminist gender studies. I highly recommend her book Lenses of Gender, which brings real knowledge, clarity, and sanity to a subject that confuses so many people. She treats transgender quite fairly, I thought, and fits it in with her overall theory, which I find liberating for everyone. It may be that the shift in attitudes toward greater acceptance of transgender, beginning in the 1990s, was stimulated and supported in part by this book. And I fell in love with her picture on the dust jacket, she looks like the cutest nerdy geekgirl ever.

[The Middle Way]

Even if they accepted us not procreating, Bible humpers would probably increase their own productivity as if they were ramping up for a war of some kind.

AS IF?