Parents are so difficult!

[pandapan]

My given name is Katherine.  I find that name to be ridiculously femminine and doesn't fit me at all, being androgyne.  (I'm told that I looked like a china doll, complete with thick dark hair and big blue eyes, as an infant and was the most popular baby in the ward.)  I go by Katie, but I'd rather just change it.  I think I like Erin better.  It's the female spelling, but it sounds ambiguous.  Plus it's an Irish name and I happen to be half Irish (yes, my skin does fry when I walk outside).  I haven't told my parents about that yet though.  I need to work with them on other issues first. 

Such as the very concept of androgyny.  They don't seem to get it.  They tell me I'm a girl and I'll just have to deal with it.  That there is no 'in-between'.  That it's a part of who I am and the way God made me and they won't let me change it.  That I'd be making an irreversible mistake removing my ovaries/uterus/breasts.  They tell me that I shouldn't do it because of some remote possibility that someday I might change my mind.  Maybe someday I'll want to get married and have kids.  Um, no.  Not only am I fully aware of this discrepency between my physical and mental self, I am also aware that I am and always will be asexual.  No marriage.  No stinkin babies.  That's not the life I want.  It's as obvious to me as my career choice.  I have always known I was an artist and that was what I have always wanted to do.  It's like someone telling me not to go to art school because someday I might want to become an accountant.  Sorry, not gonna happen.   

According to the defenition here, I would be a neutrois (how is that pronounced, anyway?).  I'm already quite androgynous, I just want to be rid of those sexual characteristics.  I've been on birth control for a few years now to control my periods (haven't had one in 2.5 years ).  But I don't want to stay on BC till menopause.  There's nasty side effects and I don't want to have sex anyway.  Also, my breasts are small, but I want them gone.  No nipples either.  It would be cool to get a tattoo on my chest after the buggers are removed. 

I think what really pushed me over the edge was when my dad pointed out that I was showing a few cm worth of leg and they were (gasp) not shaved.  I asked why it mattered and he said because I'm female.  I pointed out that nobody at college cared.  And if they did mind, then they didn't matter.  My parents are fairly conservative, but supportive of me.  I just don't know how I can get these procedures done when they tell me I can't.  I'm seeing a therepist, but she doesn't specialize in TG issues.  I feel a sense of freedom when I think of post-op life.  Right now, I'm battling depression.  I have been since puberty.  Coincidence?  I think not. 

How do  I convince them that this needs to be done?  Or how will I pay for it if they won't?

[TheBattler]

Hi there Pandapan,

Wellcome here to Susans. You will find many different people here so sit back and relax. Enjoy being here and sharing.

Alice

[cindianna_jones]

How do  I convince them that this needs to be done?  Or how will I pay for it if they won't?  I'm not sure if I covered everything... 

You may never convince them of anything. And if you want the procedures, you should plan to pay for it.

But it would be nice to get some love and sympathy from them wouldn't it?  Believe me, I understand where you are coming from.

Cindi

[Emerald]

Hello Erin, I'm very pleased to make your acquaintance!
I have heard 'neutrois' pronounced "NOY-troy" as if the word is German, and as "new-TrWAH" with a nearly silent 'r' in the French manner. I prefer using the French pronunciation.

-Emerald

[Kendall]

My given name is Katherine.  I find that name to be ridiculously femminine and doesn't fit me at all, being androgyne.  (I'm told that I looked like a china doll, complete with thick dark hair and big blue eyes, as an infant and was the most popular baby in the ward.)  I go by Katie, but I'd rather just change it.  I think I like Erin better.  It's the female spelling, but it sounds ambiguous.  Plus it's an Irish name and I happen to be half Irish (yes, my skin does fry when I walk outside).  I haven't told my parents about that yet though.  I need to work with them on other issues first. 

Nice Name, Erin.

Such as the very concept of androgyny.  They don't seem to get it.  They tell me I'm a girl and I'll just have to deal with it.  That there is no 'in-between'.  That it's a part of who I am and the way God made me and they won't let me change it.  That I'd be making an irreversible mistake removing my ovaries/uterus/breasts.  They tell me that I shouldn't do it because of some remote possibility that someday I might change my mind.  Maybe someday I'll want to get married and have kids.  Um, no.  Not only am I fully aware of this discrepency between my physical and mental self, I am also aware that I am and always will be asexual.  No marriage.  No stinkin babies.  That's not the life I want.  It's as obvious to me as my career choice.  I have always known I was an artist and that was what I have always wanted to do.  It's like someone telling me not to go to art school because someday I might want to become an accountant.  Sorry, not gonna happen.   

Sounds like you can continue to explore who you are, and become it, while you go to art school and gain your career. Becoming financially independent would release you from the financial burden of having to rely on them for money or permission. Most gain real independence during and after High School. Yes there is a in between gender. And having children isnt everyone's destiny.

According to the defenition here, I would be a neutrois (how is that pronounced, anyway?).  I'm already quite androgynous, I just want to be rid of those sexual characteristics.  I've been on birth control for a few years now to control my periods (haven't had one in 2.5 years ).  But I don't want to stay on BC till menopause.  There's nasty side effects and I don't want to have sex anyway.  Also, my breasts are small, but I want them gone.  No nipples either.  It would be cool to get a tattoo on my chest after the buggers are removed. 

Cool. So you would need to save up for a hysterectomy and breast/nipple removal. Or see if an insurance would cover something like that, but the hysterectomy would probably  only be covered if there was something abnormal or threatening with them health wise. So maybe you would have to save up and pay out of pocket.

I think what really pushed me over the edge was when my dad pointed out that I was showing a few cm worth of leg and they were (gasp) not shaved.  I asked why it mattered and he said because I'm female.  I pointed out that nobody at college cared.  And if they did mind, then they didn't matter.  My parents are fairly conservative, but supportive of me.  I just don't know how I can get these procedures done when they tell me I can't.  I'm seeing a therepist, but she doesn't specialize in TG issues.  I feel a sense of freedom when I think of post-op life.  Right now, I'm battling depression.  I have been since puberty.  Coincidence?  I think not. 

How do  I convince them that this needs to be done?  Or how will I pay for it if they won't?  I'm not sure if I covered everything... 

They dont have the right nor ability to control your sexuality, only if you let them and depend on them. You can do it the same financial way one buys houses, boats, cars, and dreams. By working on your career, becoming the best or very proficient at what you do, finding money making opportunities, and with a little luck. Then by being financial frugal in saving up what you need.

Welcome again to the androgyne section. Make sure you check out the rules of the site at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html since this is your first post, and feel free to add more posts in the androgyne section in accordance to those rules. We could use some more neutrois posts, and I look forward to them.

KK

[pandapan]

Thanks for all the helpful advice and the warm welcome.  It's good to know someone understands.  I should probably find a gender clinic somewhere near Savannah, GA for when I go to college.  I'm just not going to worry about having my parents' approval anymore.  It's always held me back so much.  I haven't really considered how the extended family might take it though.  Big Cathloc family they are.  I'm not sure.  It will be interesting to see how my birth parents react as well.  Seeing how this is one of the reasons for contacting them in the first place.  We needed medical history to see if depression was in the family.  They want to meet me, and I'm excited, but it'll be a bit awkward.

[Casey]

Check out the GLBT resources at your college. I'm sure someone can point you to therapists and maybe even a support group. The group I belong to is actually run in association with one of the colleges out here, and it seems like many of the other schools know about it. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a similar network in Savannah.

I know a female-born genderqueer whose name is Katherine, too. He used to go by Katie (I think some of his family still calls him Katie, in fact) but now he just goes by KT. (K.T.?) Sometimes if you think outside the box you can find something that works. Plus, the FAQ (which is excellently maintained by Ken/Kendra) links to some posts on androgynous and neutral names. Some, like Casey and Morgan are spelled the same way for men and women.

I'm probably from your parents' generation. (Unless your the youingest by 15 years or so. Don't laugh, my sister is.) Some/many of us were only raised with the concepts of |male| and |female|. "You were born female, raised female, you'll live as a female, and you'll die a female with as many parts as disease and accidents haven't taken." I've mentioned a few times in this forum that when I was about 18 or 20 I figured out that I'm not really a man but I'm not a woman either, and I promptly spent the next 20 years or so freaking out about it because I didn't even know that was possible. So they may not have had anything in their experience that tells them that androgyny is real. I know that makes it harder, but hang in there. In the meantime (or is that "even then"?) all this is just one more thing you have to take charge of. But then, that sounds like you so far.

And welcome to Susan's.

Edit: I completely forgot to say I hope meeting your birth parents goes well. I can only imagine what that must be like. Let us know how that goes.

[Doc]

Also, my breasts are small, but I want them gone.  No nipples either. 

Is this even -- well, obviously it's possible. Is it allowed? Not necessarily the nipple removal thing, but if somebody wants ftm top surgery but doesn't want to go on T, does that person have a hope in hell of finding a decent surgeon who will do it? Sites for clinics that do this surgery inevitably have being on hormones (or at the very least, the intent to be on hormones but a huge unbindable bust that'd make you look bi-gendered if you were) as a 'criteria for eligibility.'

[andy19]

Also, my breasts are small, but I want them gone.  No nipples either.

Is this even -- well, obviously it's possible. Is it allowed? Not necessarily the nipple removal thing, but if somebody wants ftm top surgery but doesn't want to go on T, does that person have a hope in hell of finding a decent surgeon who will do it? Sites for clinics that do this surgery inevitably have being on hormones (or at the very least, the intent to be on hormones but a huge unbindable bust that'd make you look bi-gendered if you were) as a 'criteria for eligibility.'

i'd be interested in knowing if it was allowed as well. At the moment i hover between identifying as ftm and identifying as an androgyne. i definitely want my breasts removed, but i am unsure if i want T. i've often wondered if i'd be able to do that.

[Doc]

Same here. I have no doubt whatever that chest reconstruction would improve my life, but have very big doubts about HRT.

I have long been under the impression that doctors who treat gender-issues think that the goal is to normalize people and that a request for something that would make me more comfortable and happy but also make me weirder woud be denied as lunacy.

[Emerald]

Neutrois take steps toward transitioning from their birth sex into a more physically androgynous form. They are unique in finding both male and female identification as incorrect for them. Current gender treatment and surgical intervention (as outlined in the HBIGDA Standards of Care) leave Neutrois with few options. Getting the appropriate medical attention for a Neutrois is frequently more difficult than for those who are Transsexual.  Because most cultures and governments acknowledge only the male and female, it is generally impossible for a Neutrois or an Androgyne to have their gender (or lack of gender) legally recognized.

Consider making a consultation appointment with a doctor who specializes in breast augmentation.  Ask for what you desire and whether it is an 'on request' surgery or if the doctor would prefer a psychologist's approval beforehand.

-Emerald

[Doc]

Consider making a consolation appointment with a doctor who specializes in breast augmentation. 

This typo is particularly amusing. I probably cannot get my breasts removed and replaced with a masculine contoured chest,  but I could maybe get them reduced to tiny (Leonard Cohen says, "The upturned bellies of breathing fallen sparrows") female breasts -- the consolation prize.

Search-engining around about it, I find only one site that mentions the possibility of someone going to a breast-augmentation specialist and asking for the breasts to be removed. It says this person is not a candidate and is advised to seek psychological counselling, as gender reassignment surgery may be appropriate and transsexuallism is a rare but recognized phenomenon. heh.

I don't really identify as neutrois. I am guessing that Andy19 doesn't either. I feel like a man, but an androgynous one. I suspect that FTM HRT's positive effects would be marginal (wouldn't make me feel notably more like a man/myself) in some respects and excessive (turn me into a ferocious sasquatch, I am already in the low-to-middle range of the unemotional-yet-aggressive, hairy bio-male scale) in others. Probably not worth the risks, expense, and hassle of taking hormone treatments for the rest of my life. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to say, "Hey, chest reconstruction alone would make me feel more or totally comfortable with my body when I'm naked and alone with it, and it would eliminate my need to wear an uncomfortable binder every time I leave the house, so do it." Could I convince a shrink of this? Probably, after spending several months and a thousand dollars or so in 'counselling sessions' to do it. Could this shrink convince a surgeon? Beats me.

[Emerald]

I saw my typo too just minutes before you posted, Doc.
I'm blaming the spellchecker for that hiccup!!!

-Emerald 

[Danielle_oc_ca]

Hi Kat:
]
First let me say I am really glad I live in LA where all these services are plentiful. Much of what you may be thinking of doing are what FTM transexuals go through. Top surgery, hysterectomy, etc. Except I would assume you would go on testosterone therapy.

My 20 yer old daughter had endometriosis very bad and had a complete removal of uterus, cervex and ovaries last December. It took us 2 years from the time doctors acknowledged that was the solution she needed until she had her surgery. We were going to to Mexico for it, for $5,000, until at the last minute, her other doctor in Vancouver was finally convinced it was needed. As for hormones, she is on low dose time release pellets that are implanted in her butt every 4 months. She gets just enough estrogen to keep her bones from getting brittle and to stop growing facial hair and just enough testosterone to keep her energy levels up. Before she got the testerone as part of it, she never had any energy and was irritable too much of the time.

Do a google search for "Pellet Therapy" or "Pellet Implant HRT".


So what I am trying to say, and knowing 2 FTMs personally, is that you will likely have to basically go through the procedure for an FTM, skipping the testerone shots. But you will still need to have some HRT to prevent all the bad things from old age fro starting 30 years too soon.

As for paying for it, it is very, very unlikely any insurance will pay for it. All I can say is to study hard, get a useful degree and when you start to work, pay off your student loans and start putting money aside for this. You did not ask to be born this way but no one esle is like to be willing to fix it.

Danielle