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LGBS in a T month

Started by dalebert, November 15, 2012, 12:49:30 PM

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dalebert

http://unchainprometheus.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/lgbs-in-a-t-month/

QuoteI have been really bothered for a long time by the LGBT tag. This is because what is actually happening is that two issues are being conflated. There is 1) Sexuality, and 2) Gender/Sex. I prefer LGBS (lesbian, gay, bisexual, straight) and TMCI (Trans, Metro, Cis, Intersex).

Note from Dalebert: Don't take my posting this as an endorsement. I'm just sharing his thoughts. I haven't even finished reading it all yet but I intend to. I don't feel good at all about separating the T from LGB. I see the two as very closely related personally. We talked about it on my latest show. Oh, and btw, it blew my mind when I discovered a blog called Unchained Prometheus. My radio show was called Prometheus Unchained when it started before it became Flaming Freedom! Don't know if that's just a coinky-dinky or something else. Either way it doesn't bother me at all. Just thought it was funny when I noticed it.

Padma

Womandrogyne™
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Snowpaw

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geoangelcandybutch

I couldn't read the whole blog post because I don't agree with a lot of what the persyn is saying.

I believe however that the T should be separate from LGB.

I'm going to explain exactly why I feel that way.

Cisgender folks tend to put T at the end of LGB when they're only talking about gay marriage. Um, that has nothing to do with being trans*. While yes, there are trans* folks that are also queer, it's a separate issue altogether. I persynally dislike when people put the T at the end but only end up talking about issues and problems that only related to the LGB community.

I also don't think that trans* "allies" should be given so much credit. You want a cookie for being a decent humyn being? Naw, don't think so.

Did you know that trans* allies get a whole WEEK, whereas trans* day of rememberence (spelling) is only... Well ONE DAY of the whole year?

And I've had issues with cisgender LGB folks. Tons of issues. Just because someone is LGB doesn't mean they can't be trans*phobic. And actually, I know tons of trans*phobic LGB folks.

Which is another reason I think they should be separated.
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spacial

I've just read it through. Some points are well made.

Transgender is about identity.

Being transgender doesn't mean we necessarily have to completely transision to the opposite sex. It doesn't necessarily mean our sexuality will, based upon our birth sex, be gay or straight or anything else. It is simply a need within us to express our identities is ways that are not generally conforming to a norm. It may manifest itself in our appearance or availablity permitting, a total SRS.

LGBS is largely about sex. For some, the identities of those we make love to can be very important. Some partners of those who have come out as transgender have said they cannot deal with what, to them, is a 'homosexual' relationship. That much aside, LGBT is still about sex.

Where I take issue, serious issue with this writer is where I take the same issue with other. Their assertion of some genetic absolute.

They quoting of the XX and XY rules, for example. I doubt many who do this, do so from the point of knowledge. But accept that their motives are largely motivated by ignorance.

The issue is, in reality, considerably more complicated than XX and XY. Those are terms for high school. They are simple to explain and understand.

One of the most feminine young women I have ever seen was, at the age of 15, diagnosed with Androgen insensitivity syndrome. I'm sorry, but the mere detail that she is sterile dosn't make her a man.

That she would be just as sterile as a man should demonstrate that these things are a lot more complicated than can be explained by the teenager's first book on genetics.

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tekla

Let's see, a trans only movement.  Don't you think it might suffer from the little matter that most of our best advocates want nothing to do with the label and won't come within a mile of it as a stand-alone deal?  Of course the whole 'strength in numbers' thing - well, you must have been absent that day in school.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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~RoadToTrista~

I believe wanting to separate them is silly, this isn't some sort of sexuality club. The reason there's a T in LGBT is because it makes no difference to a bigot if he sees a group of drag queens and attacks them. Unless you're straight and cisgendered like most of the population, they hate you, and standing alone makes us weaker. I also think that wanting to add an S is silly. Straight people (and when I say straight in this case it's meant to describe someone who's both straight and cisgendered) are not beaten up by other straight people for being straight. The entire point of LGBT is acceptance.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
And I've had issues with cisgender LGB folks. Tons of issues. Just because someone is LGB doesn't mean they can't be trans*phobic. And actually, I know tons of trans*phobic LGB folks.

I'd like to point out that there's also tons of homophobic transsexuals (some of which have been here), lesbians who hate gay men, gay men who hate lesbians, radical feminist lesbians who hate everyone with XY chromosomes, gay men who hate everyone who isn't a gay man, bisexuals who feel superior to gays and lesbians, and there's definitely a ton of gays and lesbians who don't like bisexuals.
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MaidofOrleans

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
persyn

persynally

humyn


All I saw was this and it was really annoying. Please don't do that.
"For transpeople, using the right pronoun is NOT simply a 'political correctness' issue. It's core to the entire struggle transpeople go through. Using the wrong pronoun means 'I don't recognize you as who you are.' It means 'I think you're confused, delusional, or mentally I'll.'. It means 'you're not important enough for me to acknowledge your struggle.'"
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Shana A

A reminder  :police:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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spacial

#10
Quote
Quote from: Zythyra on November 17, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
A reminder  :police:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

In case this was also aimed at me, I will take this opportunity to point out that I was not advocating anything. Simply agreeing with the assertion that gender is between the ears while sex is between the legs.

I did strongly take issue with the writer over their unnecesary use of psuedo science to embelish their argument.

But since the point of the discussion was the two subject matters of the blog then it hardly seems like bashing to agree with one and disagree with the other.

Seems the comment wasn't directed at me after all. Apologies for the misunderstanding
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geoangelcandybutch

Quote~RoadToTrista~ I'd like to point out that there's also tons of homophobic transsexuals (some of which have been here), lesbians who hate gay men, gay men who hate lesbians, radical feminist lesbians who hate everyone with XY chromosomes, gay men who hate everyone who isn't a gay man, bisexuals who feel superior to gays and lesbians, and there's definitely a ton of gays and lesbians who don't like bisexuals.

I'm very well aware that there are homophobic trans* folks. I know some myself. But this doesn't mean that I should just be okay with trans*phobic cisgender LGB folks. Or that I should just automatically want to have the T included in the LGB.

I have no problem with folks wanting the T to be included. That's up to other folks. But for me, and for my feelings, I think they should be separated.

QuoteMaidofOrleans All I saw was this and it was really annoying. Please don't do that.

I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me how to spell words. I persynally spell these words differently. When I refer to other people directly and they ask me not to refer to THEM specifically with an alternative spelling, I'll do that. But when talking in general, I use the alternative spellings.

QuoteZythyra A reminder 

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

In case this is in reference to what I said: I'm not saying that there should be any separation or exclusion within the transgender community. I was talking about separating the T from the cisgender LGB. I'm sorry if I came across as wanting to exclude or separate those within the trans* community.

And in case I came across as bashing any one, not what I was trying to do. I was just trying to state that I've had many problems with LGB cisgender folks, and how I have a hard time with the T being tacked to the end when it's usually silent.
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MaidofOrleans

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 18, 2012, 02:50:12 AM
I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me how to spell words. I persynally spell these words differently. When I refer to other people directly and they ask me not to refer to THEM specifically with an alternative spelling, I'll do that. But when talking in general, I use the alternative spellings.

I personally find it offensive. It comes off as misandry. If you actually understood the etymology of those words you might not have cause to do it.
"For transpeople, using the right pronoun is NOT simply a 'political correctness' issue. It's core to the entire struggle transpeople go through. Using the wrong pronoun means 'I don't recognize you as who you are.' It means 'I think you're confused, delusional, or mentally I'll.'. It means 'you're not important enough for me to acknowledge your struggle.'"
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geoangelcandybutch

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on November 18, 2012, 03:05:08 AM
I personally find it offensive. It comes off as misandry. If you actually understood the etymology of those words you might not have cause to do it.

I don't think misandry exists, as do a lot of other people I know.

But let's agree to disagree with our opinions.

I'm sure there's a block feature if you have too much of a problem with my spelling of these words.
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Snowpaw

Yeah... if anyone wants to detach from the group, by all means feel free. I however stand by the GLBT because I feel I am better off there than I am alone. Many of us have a sexuality that falls under it so yes I feel the T should stand tall and proud where it is :)

~proud Transgender woman and ally.

QuoteI'm inclined to think that we're grouping together not because we're similar, but because we experience similar prejudice. We're under the same umbrella because we're largely being spat on by the same people.

This is also very true.
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Padma

I'm inclined to think that we're grouping together not because we're similar, but because we experience similar prejudice. We're under the same umbrella because we're largely being spat on by the same people.

I also agree that sometimes people bandy about LGBT when they really just mean G, with a bit of L (and a smidgeon of B).

I'm uncomfortable with spelling designed to exclude men, for the same reason that I'm uncomfortable with 2nd-wave feminism that excludes trans women - or any exclusivity.
Womandrogyne™
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geoangelcandybutch

Quote from: Padma on November 18, 2012, 03:48:44 AM


I'm uncomfortable with spelling designed to exclude men, for the same reason that I'm uncomfortable with 2nd-wave feminism that excludes trans women - or any exclusivity.

Yet many men (especially cisgender men) exclude womon all the time! And have for many years. Sexism isn't over. I don't see the problem.

However, I do have a problem with feminism excluding trans* womyn (and other DMAB [designated male at birth] trans* folks) yet include trans* men and other DFAB (designated female at birth) trans* folks (like myself). I also don't like that WOC (womyn of colour) are also excluded within feminism. This is why I usually avoid calling myself a feminist.
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Padma

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 18, 2012, 04:18:59 AM
Yet many men (especially cisgender men) exclude womon all the time! And have for many years. Sexism isn't over. I don't see the problem.

I understand that - but this site is all about inclusivity and support. So I wouldn't want to see anyone put off using this site because of exclusivist language.
Womandrogyne™
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geoangelcandybutch

Quote from: Padma on November 18, 2012, 04:28:56 AM
I understand that - but this site is all about inclusivity and support. So I wouldn't want to see anyone put off using this site because of exclusivist language.

So does this mean when I'm on this site I have to change the way I spell things? Even though that's what I feel most comfortable with? Is spelling those words the way I spell them?

And to be honest, those words aren't meant to exclude men. They're just a different way to spell the words. It means the same thing as before.
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Devlyn

You're right, people who don't like how you spell things should read other posts or threads, or set their account to ignore you. Anyone who needs assistance with ignoring threads or individual members should contact a Staff member. Hugs, Devlyn
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