So who created god

[katia]

fear and ignorance created god.  you're working under the false presumption that divine beings exist when history shows that such divine beings are created to explain things that man does not understand.  basically though, the question is as [invalid] as asking "who created odin?" or "who created zeus?"  all deities are fictional and so they don't truly exist except in the minds of believers.  the only [true answer] to "who created god?" would be "you did." as everyone has their own presuppositions of what a divine being would be.

[Lisbeth]

"God created man in his image, and man, being a sociable animal, returned the  compliment." (Mark Twain)

The concept of infinity is one we can not understand.  We really do not understand the concept of time which can be viewed as the "fourth" dimension.  Some physicists claim there might be seven dimensions.  Who knows?

I think it's something more like 15 dimensions.

[nancyj]

Nancy, thanks ...

You are welcome, it is all stimulating to the mind (or what's left of it) and thank you.

You may be interested in this by extension:

In mathematics, the Riemann sphere is a way of extending the plane of complex numbers with one additional point at infinity, in a way that makes expressions such as 1 / 0 =  ∞ well-behaved and useful, at least in certain contexts. It is named after 19th century mathematician Bernhard Riemann. It is also called the complex projective line, denoted CP¹.

I think it's something more like 15 dimensions.

This is one of those things that is in flux, 'cause, hey, nobody really knows Diddley.

The guy I've read who seems to me to have a pretty good grip on it, Michio Kaku - Hyperspace is quite readable (also see Lisa Randall, who looks good doing this stuff as well ) - demonstrates how consistency requires 10, 11 or 26 dimensions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_10_dimensions

{Background

The deepest problem in theoretical physics is harmonizing the theory of general relativity, which describes gravitation and applies to large-scale structures (stars, galaxies, super clusters), with quantum mechanics, which describes the other three fundamental forces acting on the atomic scale.}

Anyone curious can Wiki-search what's in italics here and expand their minds some.

(and no, I don't consider this off-topic in the slightest)

[katia]

hi nancyj, just so you know there are many other forums on this site, not just this one.  i'd love to hear your pov in other areas.

[Jeannette]

You request sensible answers for the question, "so who created God?"
Here the problem is that you can get sensible answers only for sensible questions. Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.
Just in case you don't know, according to the principle of causality a cause cannot produce an effect greater than itself. So, if God was created, then God is simply the effect of a cause, which cause cannot be lesser than God. But if there is a cause which has the potential to yield God as its effect, then the cause of God is actually God, and not the effect.

[cindianna_jones]

Jennette, your postulation makes sense IF we can accept that god is the highest form of existence.  What IF we can't agree on that one?

Nancy and others, Dimensions?  Lot's of guesses. Lot's of room to explore.  Many things to learn. I'm not sure we'll find god there.  We might find a nifty way to travel to other places though.

Lis, thanks for the Mark Twain quote.  He was a brilliant man.  I stand in awe of his perception of life.

There are very few in these forums that can agree on who or what god really is.  Even among self proclaimed Christians, there are deep divisions.  I think that we created our own gods.  Look back in history.  Every civilization or population had their favorite gods. Are they any less valid now that we know where rain comes from or what makes the wind?  I'm sorry to say it but... yes. They are.  It doesn't matter much cause we tend to ignore them these days.

Who knows, a thousand years down the road, the god in vogue may likely be the alien gray from Roswell.  Then we can say with assuredness... Yes we did create THAT god!

Cindi

[katia]

Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.

who said that god was the highest form of existence? i can't force myself into irrational beliefs. i am a logical being.  also, this seems to be some sort of modified pascal's wager.  i offer the atheist's wager, in return:

a god may exist who will reward disbelief or punish belief. in the absence of clear knowledge of what if anything will benefit us hereafter it is better to concentrate on improving conditions here.

you should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. if there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. if there is a benevolent god, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

[cindianna_jones]

Katia, building on your idea... and perhaps moving sideways a bit.... I believe that being gentle, loving, and kind is the way to live before any consideration for god is given. Good deeds done for recognition from god are not good deeds. Benevolent acts benefit us directly before any divine intervention.  An honest life filled with compassion and love is really the only way to find true happiness.  Many achieve this through their religion.  Wouldn't it be swell to find a happy life without the detour? Religion can then be added if you like for the spiritual side.

- Cindi

[Fer]

First of all, I dont believe in the christian god, but according to the theology I have read, god is the uncaused cause. To assume god was created would imply something before; therefore one would logically wind up in a never-ending cycle of what made what?
Christians get around this by saying that the only thing that was always is god. Because god is eternal, he required no maker. This, though is all conjecture as there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of any eternal being. It is something that you believe or not. Seems thats the eternal question.

[Kendall]

God evolved from.....apes. Enough said.

[Attis]

So God is human? 

-- Brede

[Jeannette]

Regretfully your question makes no sense. When you ask, "Who created God?", you're asking who created or caused the absolute or highest form of existence.

who said that god was the highest form of existence? i can't force myself into irrational beliefs. i am a logical being. 

If you have a problem grasping this idea, try grasping the other one that you might find more appealing, of a self-appearing, self-evolving universe. Why is He the highest form of existence? 

The One, who created the attributes of creativity and the process of creation before beginning is rightfully, deserves to be called as God of all creatures, The One, who ordained the steps and stages of the Process of Creation, including the organic order & composition of the creatures and___ made the energy as an energy and formed the matter with energy and___ demonstrated the Will in such a way that the Will has become a universe of rules and regulations___ doubtlessly___ has every right to be called and accepted as the Real and the Absolute Living GOD.

To know that who is the creator of God___ a simple way it this___ that we should try to know at first, that who is the creator of creativity?

Whosoever has created and ordained creativity, is the Real Creator. And now, when God, has already told that there is no creator except God and God alone, is the Creator of everything and Ordainer of every order. Then, we have no alternative but to accept and believe God as the Absolute Creator in terms of the preachings of Prophets.

Who is the creator of God? Perfect answer to this question, is given in the following compound sentence, in the form of another question___ a magnificent question:

If God is the Creator of creativity and the process of creation, the both, then how can be there any possibility of God's creator?

And____ the same sentence is the most convincing, and the most rational argument, of the God-hood of God. The sentence penetrates in our minds and hearts, and we become positively convinced, that God is really existing as the One Alone God, and the One Alone Creator.

The real belief in the One Alone Lord is like that:-
•God must be believed as the One Alone Lord. By and by, firm refusal of the people-made unreal gods, is essential.
•No person or thing should be treated as a "likeness" or a "similitude" of God, the One Alone Lord.
•We should submit ourselves unconditionally to every Commandment of God, and the life should be managed, exactly, in accordance with God's Will and God's Commandments to avail God's blessings.
•The Day of Judgement should be believed, which is ordained by God for the judgement of human deeds and which is, certainly, not too far to approach.
•To ensure the acceptance of God, we must adopt those ways, which have been prescribed by God and God's Prophets. And___ this temporary life should be lead as a temporary life.

If there had been a Creator of God.....

1.If there had been a creator-god of God___ then___ creator-god would have been more powerful than God or the created-god. And___ that God would have not tolerated the supremacy of the created-god that the whole mankind and the other creatures___ should cherish the hymns and praises of the created-god.

But, as the chain of hymns and praises of God, is going on without interruption, it means that God is not a created-god. Instead, God is the One Alone God and the All-Alone Creator of everything.

2.If there had been a creator of God, then, that God would have destroyed this very universe, on account of the increasing differences, with the God of this universe. And___ as a consequence of the battle between the both___ the earth and the heavens would have been passed away completely. Or___ at least, some cold war and preparations for the decisive war___ would have been in progress or at some stage.

Consequently the music like smoothness and peace-order of this universe would have been disturbed and the circle of life & death would have become extraordinary, complicated and incompatible.

But as the cosmic system is going on smoothly, without any external assault___ so ___ it is quiet clear, that the Ruler of this universe is All-Alone.

3.There are so many tokens and signs in human world, which do lead to the fact that there is no bigger-god or a creator-god of God.

To run the system of every walk of life smoothly, there is always one responsible leader, who maintains the system intact. But whenever two or three leaders are made, the system is altogether disturbed. So the natural order, of the various circles of life, tells that God of the worlds in One Alone God.

4.If there had been a creator of God, then, the Prophets of God or the created-god, would have given some news of the bigger-god or the creator-god as well. And___ there was every possibility that they would have quitted the preaching of the created-god on account of unbearable pressure of the bigger-god or the creator-god. Or___ they would have slipped to the bigger-god or the creator-god so as to get rid of every pressure.

Or___ some Prophets of the bigger-god, or the creator-god, would have also come to tell that the God of universe is an inferior god or God is an offspring of the bigger-god or the superior-god. But as the Prophets have never demonstrated any of the afore mentioned gestures, hence, there is no god but God, the Absolute, Who is the All-Alone Ruler of the universe and its beyond.

5.God calls us to praise, to honour and to serve God alone. God does not allow praising, honouring and serving some one else. God gives the news of hell to those, who praise, honour and serve someone else, instead of God.

In the same way, the bigger-god or the creator-god must have called for his praise, his honour and his service alone. Or___ at least, the bigger god would have announced some proportionate method, announcing some latitude that the mankind and the other creatures are allowed to praise, honour and serve their God, but, by and by, they should not forget the bigger-god or the creator-god. Nor, they should consider the bigger-god or the creator-god, as an inferior god, otherwise, they will be doomed to a bigger curse and a bigger torment. But as the situation has never been like that___ hence___ there is no god but the One Alone God.

6. If there had been a bigger-god or creator-god___ then___ God would have not declared that God Alone is the Lord of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all the Prophets. Instead, God would have declared that God is not All-Alone, instead, God is the servant of the bigger-god or the creator-god. But the situation has never been like that, hence, there is no god but God, the One Alone Lord.

7.Everyone is one___ on account of his oneness___ and oneness of each one___ is a reality of an alive being. If the concept of our oneness___ had been more than that of the one concept___ then there would have been the possibility of more gods. But as the situation is not like that since inception___ so there is no god but God___ the One Alone Lord.

8.If there had been a creator-god or the bigger-god, then, God or the created-god, would have not declared that:

"I___ and I alone___ am God
No other god is real"
(Duet 32:39)

"There is no god but Allah (the One Alone God)"
(Al-Quran 37:35)
And___ after such a statement, the creator-god or the bigger-god must have killed the created-god because created god had humiliated the bigger-god or creator-god by denouncing the creator god as an unreal god. Where-after no one would have been left on the earth to say that:

"There is no god but God (The One Alone Lord)."

There is no god but God___ the One Alone Lord. Who is the All-Alone Creator of the universe and everything therein. God is Supernatural and Superphysical and Beyond of human intellect. God is not a creature, nor a thing, nor a person nor a sign and nothing is alike God. Nor anything can ever become alike God as God is the Absolute Holy.

Ruins of the declined civilizations and Pharaoh's Empire___ do tell us that denial and disobedience of the One Alone God___ is nothing else but an open invitation to the curse and destruction. Whereas the belief in One Alone God is the positive correction of one's affairs of the world and the Hereafter. Victory of Moses over Pharaoh is enough as a proof of the existence of One Alone God and God's unshared power.

[Elizabeth]

I simply love philosophical questions. It brings out the best in everyone. It's nice to see such a diverse dialog on this incredibly puzzling dilemma that has faced man kind since we became sentient and perhaps even before that time.

First, it makes the presumption that there is a "god", despite the absolute lack of any evidence. For some reason, all gods are shy. They don't want us to be able to prove to each other they exist. Which seems kinda of odd, since they all insist we believe.

In the end, it's always another person, speaking our language, that tells us what god wants from us. Better yet, ask this. What does the general public think of those who claim god is talking to them? Then ask yourself, why that is?

Quantum Mechanics tells us we can not know the future because particles decay in a way that is not only unpredictable, but truly random. Not only that, but that observing particles changes what they do. And lastly, the one Einstein hated, there is no objective reality. Of course, Bell proved Einstein wrong and the fact that there is no objective reality has been tested and retested and different methods used, but in the end, it always turns out there is no objective reality. In other words, events in our reality can be controlled by events not found to be in our reality. It's really strange stuff, but if you have ever seen an atomic bomb go off, it's pretty hard to say these scientists are wrong.

So bottom line, if our reality is affected by what we observe, which appears to be the case, our reality has no predictable future, and our reality can be affected by things so far away that they could not be in our local reality, then this whole question about god is just another one of those things we can't know. It may just be beyond what is capable for our species to know.

Maybe we are just going to have to accept that we don't know how we got here, why we are here, or where here, happens to be? Why is that so hard to accept? Why is it that everyone wants to live forever?. I mean forever? Until time itself stops? Ion after ion? Doing what? Thanking god for creating me, so I could spend eternity worshiping him/her?

I have eyes and ears and smell and touch and taste and a brain. All so I can perceive all these particles around me. They may or may not be anything like my perception of them. Everything is just combinations of different particles and how I perceive them. And it turns out that just me seeing them changes what they are and how I perceive them. My own reality.

God is our own creation. He is there for those who choose to see him. He is just as much a part of reality for those who perceive him, as the air we breathe is to the rest of us. However if you look for him, you won't find him. You have to choose to see him.

Who created god? The need to understand created god.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Attis]

From We the Living:
"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own."

-- Brede

[The Middle Way]

God, the Absolute, Who is the All-Alone Ruler of the universe and its beyond.

Why does a Universe require such a Ruler? And why, then, is the Universe so unruly?

TMW

[cindianna_jones]

Why does a universe require an absolute ruler? And why is is so damned unruly?

TMW... might it because we have this innate need to be subjigated? 

Cindi

[The Middle Way]

Why does a universe require an absolute ruler? And why is is so damned unruly?

TMW... might it because we have this innate need to be subjigated? 

Cindi

Yeah, maybe.

"and then He asked me if I was into S&M. I'm So Sher! I mean, can you picture me in like, a leather teddy? NO WAY!..."

note: When the page here was first appearing, I saw innate intially as inmate. Universe as Insane Asylum, the inmates are running the place, or not?

[Pica Pica]

I would bring in a bit of Kurt Vonnegut on this one.

"I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all."

That there is no God, and the human race are just the result of a mind blowing number of possibilities and the fact that we are asking these questions says no more about the universe than this is what has happened.

What is really interesting is the whole human social and emotional (and I suppose spiritual) elements of the world that the human race has layered upon the mechanical physical world.

By being born into a human mind that is both affected by the mechanical and random, as well as the chosen and social - it has a bizzare ability to abstract and create ephemeral ideas that have no basis in the ontology of the world 'as it is' but become something solid by becoming part of the culture. One of these biggest ideas seem to be God, so although God is not ontologically real the image of God is so pervasive in human culture, and so 'real' as part of the human construct, that it actually has motivational force.

Which leads me to think that God is a human construct, but one of such strength to be as good as real.

[The Middle Way]

you're working under the false presumption that divine beings exist when history shows that ...

You're working under the "false assumption" that there is a such thing as history.


to wit:

THE CHRISTIAN or MONOTHEISTIC WORLDVIEW (1) versus:
THE INDO-EUROPEAN PAGAN OR HEATHEN WORLDVIEW (2) (on the question of time, and by extension, history):

1) Time is linear, a timeline with past, present, and future occuring in a set and unchangeable order; the first events happened in the past; present events are happening now, and future events will lead up to the end of the world and the judgment and to the perpetual and unchanging order that will follow.
...
The perception people have that time is linear and each moment unique is based on the fact that our senses are showing us precisely what is there. The human recollection of these events is recorded, preserved, and called "History".

2) Time is not seen as "linear"; the cyclical universe is not linear, it is circular or spiraling. The fact that humans have a perception of time as being linear is explained by the fact that dominant religions, cultures, and sciences have taught that time was a linear progression for centuries, but many primal peoples untouched by those forces still have no concept of time in the "rational" or linear sense; primal peoples have a long history of rejecting the linear notion of "history".

"History" in the absolute sense does not exist; it is merely a story told by people who believe in linear time. Instead of "histories", Myths take the center role to Pagans or Heathens, because Myths describe timeless events, powers, and truths which are perpetually real, timeless events, powers, and truths that underlie every manifest "moment".

[Kendall]

Actually, I think Buddha created a few fun servant gods, gods of christian, muslim, egypt, greek, indian, native american, and other gods, just because he was bored, mischieveous, and looking for a way to mess with other's minds. But Buddha evolved from the great ape of eternity. Or so most the ancient people believed.