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Why do you need to carry a GUN

Started by peky, January 11, 2013, 06:23:47 PM

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BunnyBee

That's rather anarchistic, isn't it?  Maybe that's your point, that you're an anarchist?  I'm not saying the government has never overstepped, but i think having laws against bad things is a generally good thing.

Does it stop people from doing bad things? No.  But it makes it harder, makes it so fewer people bother, and it makes life pretty annoying and terrible for people that do (and get caught.)
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Brooke777

Quote from: Jen on February 07, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
That's rather anarchistic, isn't it?  Maybe that's your point, that you're an anarchist?  I'm not saying the government has never overstepped, but i think having laws against bad things is a generally good thing.

Does it stop people from doing bad things? No.  But it makes it harder, makes it so fewer people bother, and it makes life pretty annoying and terrible for people that do (and get caught.)

Laws against "bad things" are good, and will help to keep order in society. But, when the government tries to tell you how to live your life they are overstepping. Take something as small as the seatbelt law. If I want to die, or get injured in a car accident, that is my choice. Why should I have to be forced to do something like that? I fully support seat belts for children because they are not old enough to realize what they are risking. But, adults are. Those kinds of laws are stupid.
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Shantel

Quote from: oZma on February 07, 2013, 12:32:44 PM
you can't legislate safety or equality... to think you can just empowers 'professional' politicians that get off on you voting for them.  to me, politics, legislature, gov is disgusting and I will not support ANYTHING they do because I am a non violent person with a non-aggression principle.  gov is a monopoly on the legal use of force, read violence...

just think about what a politician is... a person whose job it is to decide what's best for YOU! what you can eat, drink, say, do, act! a person that decides the best way to spend YOUR fruits of YOUR Labor! and if you don't agree... b you have to give them more money, and even go to jail! because you disagree with them?! wtf! sorry I'm getting off topic but my point being that you cannot legislate safety and all attempts with have negative consequences :-)


Exactly, well stated! Unfortunately there are many who would prefer to live under the limits and sanctions of a nanny state!
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BunnyBee

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 07, 2013, 12:54:12 PM
Laws against "bad things" are good, and will help to keep order in society. But, when the government tries to tell you how to live your life they are overstepping. Take something as small as the seatbelt law. If I want to die, or get injured in a car accident, that is my choice. Why should I have to be forced to do something like that? I fully support seat belts for children because they are not old enough to realize what they are risking. But, adults are. Those kinds of laws are stupid.

How many lives have seatbelt laws saved?   I get your point, but that's like the most annoying example and I'm not even sure those laws are bad is all I'm saying.

How about texting while driving?  Do you feel there should be laws against that?
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crazy at the coast

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 07, 2013, 12:54:12 PM
Laws against "bad things" are good, and will help to keep order in society. But, when the government tries to tell you how to live your life they are overstepping. Take something as small as the seatbelt law. If I want to die, or get injured in a car accident, that is my choice. Why should I have to be forced to do something like that? I fully support seat belts for children because they are not old enough to realize what they are risking. But, adults are. Those kinds of laws are stupid.
The issue with it is that if you get hurt because you aren't wearing a seatbelt, your insurance pays and that is basically a pool supported by a large group of people and you willfully put yourself at a higher risk and its reducing our pool so it does affect more than just you. Seat belts and airbags are to reduce injuries which saves money. Or would you be ok with waiving your rights to insurance paid care if you were in a car accident, whether it was your fault or not?
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Brooke777

Quote from: Jen on February 07, 2013, 12:59:56 PM
How many lives have seatbelt laws saved?   I get your point, but that's like the most annoying example and I'm not even sure those laws are bad is all I'm saying.

How about texting while driving?  Do you feel there should be laws against that?

I agree, seat belt laws have saved a lot of lives. But, were they lives that wanted to be saved? Why is it up to the government to decide if someone should want to protect themselves with a seatbelt or not. If they don't care if they get hurt in an accident, that is their choice. Personally, I think not wearing a seatbelt is stupid. I just don't like the government telling me I have to.

I do think there should be laws against texting because that has the potential of hurting others. It's like driving while drunk. If you are texting while driving you could cause a serious accident and kill someone else. Those laws are to protect the other drivers from the texters, not the texters from themselves.

Do you see where I see the difference? I hope that makes sense, if not I will try to explain it better.
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Brooke777

Quote from: crazy at the coast on February 07, 2013, 01:04:35 PM
Or would you be ok with waiving your rights to insurance paid care if you were in a car accident, whether it was your fault or not?

This, right here. If you choose to participate in an action that will cause you to incur undo damage, insurance should not have to pay. I have no problem with my insurance not paying for me if I'm not wearing a seatbelt. Granted, I don't even turn my car on without having my seatbelt on.
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oZma

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 07, 2013, 12:54:12 PM
Laws against "bad things" are good, and will help to keep order in socie bty. But, when the government tries to tell you how to live your life they are overstepping. Take something as small as the seatbelt law. If I want to die, or get injured in a car accident, that is my choice. Why should I have to be forced to do something like that? I fully support seat belts for children because they are not old enough to realize what they are risking. But, adults are. Those kinds of laws are stupid.

so who decides what's 'bad'? intuition? the majority? what if the majority wants to rape children? must be good right? no... now I know that's a silly argument but it paints a picture that 'bad things' are arbitrary and NOBODY can, from a moral perspective, tell you what you are doing is 'bad' unless its harming someone else, their rights, or their property.

as for the anarchy question... I'm more of a minarcist :-) or a libertarian, although I do believe anarchy is possible and shouldn't be a dirty word... a better word is voluntarianism :-)

here is positive practical anarchy discussion

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BunnyBee

Libertarian is a nice word for anarchist :).  I'm not against your views, I just have a very different stance on a lot of things from libertarians, but that's okay.  Regarding what is right or wrong, we all decide that.  Everybody that belongs to the culture in question.  It's a social contract.  Different cultures define good and bad differently, but I think things just run smoother for any society when it can decide on a certain way to live together.   Everybody can agree murder is bad.  Then you just have to argue incessantly about the more gray areas.  It's not perfect, but it's better than everybody for themself, imo.
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oZma

Quote from: Jen on February 07, 2013, 01:50:37 PM
Libertarian is a nice word for anarc hist :).  I'm not against your views, I just have a very different stance on a lot of things from libertarians, but that's okay.  Regarding what is right or wrong, we all decide that.  Everybody that belongs to the culture in question.  It's a social contract.  Different cultures define good and bad differently, but I think things just run smoother for any society when it can decide on a certain way to live together.   Everybody can agree murder is bad.  Then you just have to argue incessantly about the more gray areas.  It's not perfect, but it's better than everybody for themself, imo.

and that's fine :-) but what happens if the society decides things like gays illegal, or we can't transition?  can't be female? can't smoke a leaf? once you start making rules in the gray area, things get messy... when things become illegal or 'bad' as you put it... you enforce it with tickets which swell the size of gov which in turn just makes new rules.

we make approx 40000 new laws in 2012... a total of now 4500 federal criminal laws.  we are all criminals... from speeding and seat belts, to making bets with friends, to singing happy birth day in public, piracy, unsecured wifi... the list goes on and on... to me, its just an excuse to legally rob us

you support these 'bad' things by supporting the idea that 'bad'things should be illegal. 

now if the legal system was simple, and straight forward... id have nothing to complain... but since it isn't...  the whole system needs to go

I mean dancing is illegal at the Jefferson memorial? serial?
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oZma

Quote from: DianaP on February 07, 2013, 03:22:32 PM
Well, here are some points I have to make:

1. No one said that the police protect individuals before crime happens. A police for is a deterrent that scares potential criminals from breaking the law, which includes harming other people. Also, if the police happen to be near a crime at the time it is performed, a criminal can be shot, if needed, and the police would have protected people. The fact that the police aren't at your side 24/7 doesn't mean that they can't protect you. They do it indirectly, which is why a lot of people under-appreciate police officers. If there wasn't a police force, we'd know what would happen, and we have seen it happen in relatively recent history.


so you support controlling people through fear? interesting... what does that say about the incredibly and increasingly vague term of 'criminal'?  is it OK for police to scare me into not smoking marijuana?  scare me into paying taxes? does that mean the gov can declare x, y, z is criminal activity and use their police goons to control us with fear?  sounds like 1984

it's much better to educate people than distill fear in them... but then again, if what you want is immoral... it might help to indoctrinate the youth with lies and keep them in check with fear all the while telling them that they are protecting you LOL

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3. Govt. regulation isn't always a bad thing. Seat belt laws are good because they make it less likely for people to have to pay for your large hospital bills. Plus, what about the mother of a person who was killed because he/she didn't wear a seat belt? There are other people besides yourself, you know. Gun regulation is no different. For all of you gun lovers, why are you so against gun regulation? If you don't have anything to hide in a background check, then you should have nothing to worry about, right? Not to mention that it is only reasonable to regulate the possession of a weapon that can kill someone as easily as point, pull trigger, kill. Or should we all be allowed to have RPGs, too?


regardless, you should educate, not legislate..
never force people to do anything... let them choose to act... the basis of freedom

every piece of legislation is ultimately backed by a gun... is it really necessary to have an invisible gun in your car threatening you unless you 'click it'? I don't support the threat of violence.  I don't support coercion.

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4. An armed society is not a safe society. There are plenty of mindless killing that involve no plan of escape or regard for legal ramifications. This type of person would not consider consequences. Plus, within a population of millions, there are bound to be people that would go crazy. Holding a gun makes people feel powerful and could easily lead to an irrational decision. Guns should be regulated, not allowed throughout the public readily.

there will always be crayzy people... when seconds count, the police are only minutes away :) let people defend themselves from crayzy


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6. Anarchy, while not deserving of the stigma it has, is a delusional person's dream. Anarchy involves following rules not because a government sets them out with consequences, but simply out of your own good character. An anarchist society requires that every individual governs his/her own actions, requiring that each individual be a perfect person. Not going to happen.

did you watch that video?  the gov exists in a state of anarchy itself LOL... who watches the watchmen? the gov doesn't have a gov... if it did Bush would have gone to jail :-)

and do you really think that low of people that they can't govern themselves? really? you think the majority of people need authority to tell them how to act? that the majority of people have bad character? really?


everything comes down to education and the government schools... well they like to perpetuate their gospel and demand you pay worship through taxes... they will NEVER teach true freedom... if they did, they would be obsolete
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oZma

Quote from: DianaP on February 07, 2013, 06:10:48 PM
Considering that nothing else works, fear of consequences is the only way to keep the masses in check. Heck, that's even why religion became powerful.

People shouldn't all be armed. If there was a shooting, people would try to "defend" themselves by firing whichever way they hear gunfire in the middle of a panic.

The govt. has checks and balance of power. The government is far from anarchy.

Finally, people cannot govern themselves. Authority is needed. A majority of people would perform criminal acts simply because there would be no consequences by a legal system. No law, no government assistance, or regulation of business. The world would descend into chaos. Believing otherwise is ignoring reality.

wow, this sums up your views... people need a master, controlling them with fear is a good thing, and they should not be able to protect themselves... big brother will do that for them :-)
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peky

Quote from: oZma on February 07, 2013, 06:18:09 PM
wow, this sums up your views... people need a master, controlling them with fear is a good thing, and they should not be able to protect themselves... big brother will do that for them :-)

On the other hand checkout what is going on on places that lack strong governments: Somalia, Central African, Nigeria, Sudan, Mexico, Colombia, etc....

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oZma

Quote from: DianaP on February 07, 2013, 06:48:20 PM
Oh, I wasn't going off-topic. If my point wasn't clear, it did pertain to guns. Govt. regulation has strong value and people cannot be trusted to be running amok with guns. As much as I would love for this to be false, it's not.   :(

Doesn't change the fact that people aren't filled with caramel and sprinkles on their insides. Regardless of the nation, it's proof that people need guidance. America is no different.

just like all the guidance we needed when we came here fleeing from an overreaching British gov

im sorry, I'm so over trying to defend freedom to people who are unwilling to learn and understand the principles of liberty... have fun kids
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oZma

Quote from: DianaP on February 07, 2013, 06:55:10 PM
Liberty is not equal to doing whatever you want, which includes buying a gun without proof that you can be trusted with it.

I seriously laughed out loud!
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Brooke777

Quote from: oZma on February 07, 2013, 06:57:19 PM
I seriously laughed out loud!

From what I remember about Diana, she understands true liberty very well, and she demonstrates it constantly and consistently with her views. I do not think laughing at her was your most productive comment.
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Penny Gurl

Quote from: peky on February 07, 2013, 06:38:23 PM
On the other hand checkout what is going on on places that lack strong governments: Somalia, Central African, Nigeria, Sudan, Mexico, Colombia, etc....

I don't think oZma was saying we need a weak government, however the people should control the government and not the other way around.  Over regulation and socialization actually work to weaken the citizens by making them dependent on the government.  Every individual should have the right to protect themselves, not only from the government but in a more likely case from each other.  A criminal doesn't care about laws, regulations and city ordinances, if they did then they wouldn't be a criminal, however over regulation can hurt those obeying the law and disarming those who would actually benefit from protection.  Personally I feel firearm education should actually be something that is taught in school since it is a constitutional right and education could result in better respect and handling of firearms.  A gun or a bullet doesn't kill, a person does. And if we had firearm education then truthfully you would probably be more likely to find those who could show tendencies of misuse BEFORE it happens.  Just my two cents.
"My dad and I used to be pretty tight. The sad truth is, my breasts have come between us."

~Angela~
My So-Called Life
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Shawn Sunshine

Quote from: oZma on February 07, 2013, 06:57:19 PM
I seriously laughed out loud!

I don't understand why you laughed, its not at all funny.
Shawn Sunshine Strickland The Strickalator

#SupergirlsForJustice
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oZma

Quote from: DianaP on February 07, 2013, 06:55:10 PM
Liberty is not equal to doing whatever you want, which includes buying a gun without proof that you can be trusted with it.



#1 who determines if you can be "trusted"? the gov? you have to see how arbitrary these things really are.
#2 the idea of "proving" you can be trusted?  prove what? that you'll jump through legal hoops and bend over when they tell you? prove you haven't committed a crime... yet? this is arbitrary, but i'm not completely against it... just somewhat arbitrary

liberty: the value of individuals to have agency (control over their own actions)

i assume your definition of liberty is "the value of individuals to have control over their actions... deemed acceptable by government?"... lets take that a step further... "the value of individuals to have control over their actions... deemed acceptable by a group of elites?"

you speak of your approval of controlling people with fear.  controlling people is wrong... using fear, threats of violence against non-violent people is immoral even if what your doing is "percieved" as a good thing.  don't control people... encourage them (and not through taxes)! just like you train a dog... with treats! not with slaps across the face or threats of putting it in a cage... we know that doesn't work! ask the dog whispererer

one day Mrs. 18 year old, you will grow up and see all the indoctrination you have went through... when i was 18... i was a neo-con... i supported nation building!... i voted for BUSH!!?! we all make mistakes... i don't don't judge you for what you have been "educated" with.

have an open mind when it comes to politics... don't assume you know everything, i know how easy it is to feel that way... remember... i was a neo-con! i knew everything! lol in fact, i knew nothing

:) have a good day ya'll
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oZma

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on February 07, 2013, 07:35:34 PM
I don't understand why you laughed, its not at all funny.

because she said liberty is not equal to doing what you want and in fact it is... as long as you don't hard others, or their property...
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