Religion and Transexuality... Why must they Contridict?

[togetherwecan]

Unconditional love means complete understanding.

So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.

Why would you NOT want to understand why something is evil? Isn't that how we learn? And in our learning, isn't that how we evolve?

And here's one for you Brede...*evil* is subjective depending on *who* is defining it. There are some that view TS as evil and aren't you - like everyone else seeking understanding? Oh or are those people just ignorant? Because if you label them as such, know your ignorance will stand out all the more 

[Nero]

I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...

'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'

Call it a load of hot air, obviously.

I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.

[Attis]

Why would you NOT want to understand why something is evil? Isn't that how we learn? And in our learning, isn't that how we evolve?

Of course you can, but there's nothing to understand in the sense of compassion or love for it. For example, I don't try to understand why people steal from the store I work at, I just recognize it's wrong due to that it takes valuable resources and rightfully owned property from the company. And that hurts me indirectly in that there's less things to sell at the store, which means less money for me, and money being the means to gain things to sustain my life, thusly my life is also hurt.

And here's one for you Brede...*evil* is subjective depending on *who* is defining it.

No, it's not. Do I get to redefine the addition and subtraction rules? No, they're invariant. Evil, in essence, is the subtraction from one's (or others) life. Good is the addition to one's (or others) life. This means, being gay isn't evil. Being white or black isn't evil. But being a thief, a murderer, and a destroyer of life is evil. You see how simple it works? You see how elegant it operates? How free people because from the old conceptions? No more does one have to feel guilty for being selfish and gaining wealth. No more does one have to feel bad if one does not like someone. And no more does one feel guilt if one is not of the same faith (or lack thereof) of others. It's also measurable across all cultures. We can go to any place on Earth and use it to deduce the nature of morality in each situation. It also does not subscribe any particular ideal other than the sustainment of human individual life. It is the most general and the most accurate of definitions for those reasons above. Every other definition of good and evil cannot follow in this form for the fact they disregard the material requirements for existence, especially for happiness.

Oh or are those people just ignorant? Because if you label them as such, know your ignorance will stand out all the more 

Yes they are ignorant, and no I am not ignorant because of that declaration. You need to prove the case that when I show that someone is ignorant, that I am ignorant in kind. By your logic, a teacher who corrects a student in a matter of knowledge is ignorant as well. And that leads to further absurdities.

Either we exist in a world where our knowledge follows from Nature, or we exist in a world where all knowledge is not knowledge of anything but ourselves. I prefer the former, because it's validated everyday when I use a tool like my bike, my mind, my computer, and so on. The latter does not get validated anywhere.

-- Brede

[Pica Pica]

I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...

'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'

Call it a load of hot air, obviously.

I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.

As the atheist child of a reverend, having been born 'of a miracle' as they say - I reckon I'm close enough to do a bit of blasphemy, maybe not quite the big shots you mentioned, but enough.

But as an atheist who is head over heels with the idea of God, and would like very little more than it to be true, I don't think I could ever personally reject God, just reject the question of God being a meaningful one.....But you must admit the holy ghost would be insulted by that....or being asked whether it could bugger off and get someone more famous, like Caspar.

[RebeccaFog]

I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...

'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'

Call it a load of hot air, obviously.

I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.

As the atheist child of a reverend, having been born 'of a miracle' as they say - I reckon I'm close enough to do a bit of blasphemy, maybe not quite the big shots you mentioned, but enough.

But as an atheist who is head over heels with the idea of God, and would like very little more than it to be true, I don't think I could ever personally reject God, just reject the question of God being a meaningful one.....But you must admit the holy ghost would be insulted by that....or being asked whether it could bugger off and get someone more famous, like Caspar.

Come now. It's pretty unlikely that Caspar is bigger than the Holy Ghost. Isn't Caspar only about 2.5 feet tall?

[Chandra21]

Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar.  Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done?  Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID?  Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder? 

Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?

When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children.  And I call that unconditional love.  Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires.  The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.

The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.  You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.

Cindi

I like to consider God as a loving parent aswell. He(or she) is our father (or mother... sometimes I think God is actually a female... then again god is everything.) in heavan... He(or she) created us and so we are his children... And I can't imagine any good loving parent condemning their child because they feel there is something wrong with their body, that they want to change. So I can't imagine God doing such a thing either.

[RebeccaFog]

I like your reasoning, Chandra.

   Looking at the subject of this thread - "Religion and Transexuality... Why must they Contridict?" - I would say that they do not have to conflict. They conflict under certain circumstances depending on who is expressing or representing 'Religion'.
   There are congregations where there is no contradiction or friction between the Religion and transsexuality.  After reading some of your posts here, I believe you will find what you are looking for.


Love,

Rebecca

[cindianna_jones]

Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?

But doesn't that mean God has a limit on its love? I mean we all do. I doubt I could love anyone that raped me. Or love someone that nearly killed me. I can't say you would think the same way, but I know that in general you would probably have a hard time trying to find anything to like about someone who would do such evil to you, or others for that matter.

You deleted the context.  If that person were your child, would you still love the child? And in that context is god's love (for his/her own children) less than our own mortal capacity?

The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.  You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.

I would argue you can measure it by the fact you can contrast it against other states of being. Love for example, is the identification or valuation of something. I love my freedom, because it is of great value to me. I love my mom, because she is a great person of value to me. And so on. These may not have physical quantities but they do have quantities of measure. And that's why we can say, I love you. Or I don't like what you did to me. Or I forgive you. These are all states, which our mind has to measure as to know when to 'do' them, or react to them. Either in recognition or as a means to act.

In my world god is love. And so, we pull you to the dark side....

Chin up!

Cindi

[Pica Pica]

I suppose the reason that they may conflict could be a bit like when your parents buy you some clothes, and they are not nice, and you reject those clothes and your parents call you ungrateful...but if I believed in God and God was like a parent feeling a bit hard-done-by then I wouldn't want to believe in God anyway.

[Chandra21]

Well I just told the missionaries serving in my area that I am Gay but I don't act on it by being in relationships with men or anything (which is true. I act upon it by being in relationships with women. ^_^) and they told me that they ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that gays, lesbians and bisexuals do not choose to be who they are but still think that acting upon what is natural to them is a sin. Interesting... Makes me want to ask them "Why would God be so sinister to make them who they are and then command them not to be that way?"

I never really told them that I'm transexual too (though I did give them a hint of it ^_^)... because I'm pretty sure I don't want to be a member of this religion anymore. I'll still attend church with them for the time being, because I think they are very morally good people (they don't drink, smoke, swear or gamble, they follow the ten commandents faithfully and they're always there to lend a hand to their fellow human beings) and i have always believed in a very similar concept of God as they do. Plus, as I said somewhere else in this topic, If it is not inspired by God the Book of Mormon is still a really good novel!

[Butterfly]

Your question is actually a very smart observation of "religion gone hypocritical." All living creatures on this earth are unique and deserve dignity and respect. That doesn't mean we have to like everyone's choices or actions, but we should respect them as long as their lives don't directly threaten ours and cause us harm. I think we should get out of God's way and let Him deal with all of us, and I think He would not be too happy if I were a mean spirited person judging others and not evaluating my own flaws first. Perhaps that answers your question: whether we are transsexual, straight, gay, or whatever, we are all flawed individuals who have sinned in some way, so it is difficult to be perfect.

[Chandra21]

Your question is actually a very smart observation of "religion gone hypocritical." All living creatures on this earth are unique and deserve dignity and respect. That doesn't mean we have to like everyone's choices or actions, but we should respect them as long as their lives don't directly threaten ours and cause us harm. I think we should get out of God's way and let Him deal with all of us, and I think He would not be too happy if I were a mean spirited person judging others and not evaluating my own flaws first. Perhaps that answers your question: whether we are transsexual, straight, gay, or whatever, we are all flawed individuals who have sinned in some way, so it is difficult to be perfect.

Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.

[Lisbeth]

To answer your initial question, religion and transsexuality do not have to contradict.  Christianity and transsexuality do not have to contradict, and in some times and places have not contradicted.  The contradiction is in this time and place with this brand of Christianity.  And I am not referring to Mormonism specifically when I say this.  I'm talking about Christian Fundamentalists of all labels.

[David W. Shelton]

Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.

A big, hearty "AMEN" to that one! We can all be hypocrites in one fashion or another. But you're so right. Scripture says, "God is love." Not, "God is love to everyone... *but he's a brute bastard who would condemn those he creates as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender."

There is no asterisk. Period.

[Pica Pica]

Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.

A big, hearty "AMEN" to that one! We can all be hypocrites in one fashion or another. But you're so right. Scripture says, "God is love." Not, "God is love to everyone... *but he's a brute bastard who would condemn those he creates as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender."

There is no asterisk. Period.

Dunno, that Bible is written in very small print...

[cindianna_jones]

In a perfect world.....

I believe that most religions would teach a way of life, a set of moral values to live by, and that we should "just get along" with each other.

Science is a process by which we question, collect information, and learn about our world around us.

So, indeed, why can't the two cohabit in this place we call life?

I still can't understand why it can't work.

Cindi

[Lisbeth]

I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...

'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'

Call it a load of hot air, obviously.

I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.

I remember being taught that when I was growing up in the Baptist church.  Then I became a Lutheran and they said that it had to do with people showing the fruits of the spirit and their enemies saying that it was Satan doing it instead of the Holy Spirit.