Some thoughts on dominant narratives, having always known and other things

[Q]

Ok, I was reading this thread: 'On Dominant Narratives and Why Trans People Lie': https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,128050.0.html. It's an interesting one and I wanted to add my 2p, but it's an ancient one and everyone has probably moved on to think about other things, so I thought this can probably stand up as a new thread.... I'm sorry I rambled a bit, lol... I have split it up to make it easier to read though; if you want to...

On lying and trans stock phrases

I also have used the 'official trans catch phrases', in the past, when trying to explain myself to people. I wouldn't say I was lying when I used them. It was more a case that I was young when I started trying to tell people what I was feeling and I didn't have the vocabulary to do it very well. Also, if you're in a stressful situation being asked lots of challenging questions that are very difficult to answer, it's easy to use some of the stock phrases as a fall back position.

If I was transitioning, I expect I might well still say to some people 'I always knew I was a woman', because if you are talking to someone who isn't really going to challenge what that actually means, it's a whole lot quicker and easier than a more in depth discussion... especially if the depth of their response is only really does this mean you want to wear dresses and have sex with men, lol.

On having always known

The 'always known I was a woman (or man)' thing is interesting too, because that's another thing I have said in the past, but something I have refined my thinking on since. I think what people say about it has a lot to do with the way they think as well as what their experiences have been.

I am not someone who 'just believes' anything. I like to consider the evidence and then I may agree with a theory based on that evidence, until new evidence comes along which says that theory is wrong. If there isn't enough information then I just say to myself, ok, this is a question which isn't answerable at the moment.

Even ignoring very early memories of events where ascribing meaning to them later would only be conjecture and just considering more concrete ones involving feeling either one is or feels like one should be a woman – I still can't personally conclude they tell me I always knew I was a woman – no matter how far back they go or how many of them there are.

On what it means to feel like a woman or a man

What does it actually mean to feel like a woman (or a man) anyway? It's not an answerable question, because it's subjective. I think, that as best I know, my consciousness and thoughts are merely a product of electrical impulses in my brain and I don't have any kind of spiritual existence beyond that (though that sounds like a nice idea!). Therefore, it isn't possible for me to feel like anything other than myself; any amount of subjective feeling I'm a woman or a man I might do is then just how my particular brain works.

The only conclusion I can then come to is that based on my experiences and what I feel, I can form a hypothesis that I may feel more comfortable interacting with the world perceived as female and if my body was female in form... and that hypothesis can be tested out by going out into the world and trying to interact with it as female. Which I suppose is how the medical profession came up with the 'real life experience / test' idea.

I can see that someone who thinks in a different way to me (say someone who believes they have a spirit) could take my experiences and memories and conclude they mean they always knew they were a woman... it's just not the way I think about things.

On when you can say 'I am a woman! (or a man!)'

That's not to say I don't think I can't also say 'I am a woman', if one thinks of 'woman' and 'man' as two overlapping fuzzy sets. Ok, I'm not in the same part of 'woman' as someone born female, but if I say that the overall set of woman includes people who identify as female then I feel it is quite legitimate for me to say 'I'm a woman'. (Ok, it means some people will think I'm a loony, lol, but that doesn't really matter).

It also, for me, makes it easier for me to get my head around the dichotomy of feeling 'I am a woman... but I was born with a male body and I look male so I must be male... erk!', etc, because I can think to myself and say actually – that's ok, logically it does add up because I just belong to both the set 'woman' and the set 'man'... so, I know it makes logical sense and maybe someday science will come up with an explanation of why my brain works like it does, and then uninformed people won't think I'm crazy! Lol

On the relevance of when or if people transition and some thoughts on young transitioners today

Lastly, I don't think in and of itself when people transition or if they transition at all really says anything about the underlying causes. Categorizing people in that way is grouping people by outcome not by underlying causes. You can make guesses about causes based on outcome but I don't think anything conclusive, because I think the outcomes are due to a complex interaction between biology, personality and societal factors.

I can look at myself and see how you could have lots of different outcomes. When I see young children and teenagers now saying and doing the things I've done and parents who just say ok I've heard of trans people, you must be trans, let me support you... ok, I feel a little bit envious and pleased to see things moving on, but I also feel worried for them and whether they will be, or have been, sufficiently challenged to think...

...I also feel slightly envious of people, in general, who don't analyse things like I do, and just seem to operate in the manner of 'ok I think this... I'll do that... without thinking too much',... hah, lol!

[Emily Aster]

The 'always known I was a woman (or man)' thing is interesting too, because that's another thing I have said in the past, but something I have refined my thinking on since. I think what people say about it has a lot to do with the way they think as well as what their experiences have been.

I've used that because it's less likely to be countered. If I tell them that I always knew something was off or that I never fit into my assigned gender role, it leaves it open to speculation, then I may have to spend months explaining myself to someone that I shouldn't have to explain myself to.

What does it actually mean to feel like a woman (or a man) anyway? It's not an answerable question, because it's subjective. I think, that as best I know, my consciousness and thoughts are merely a product of electrical impulses in my brain and I don't have any kind of spiritual existence beyond that (though that sounds like a nice idea!). Therefore, it isn't possible for me to feel like anything other than myself; any amount of subjective feeling I'm a woman or a man I might do is then just how my particular brain works.

Finally! Someone with similar viewpoints to mine. When I say this to people, it either ends the thread or people stop talking to me lol. I don't actually look at myself as just electrical impluses, but I do look at my self as just a series of chemical reactions. I also agree that it would be nice to have a spiritual side though.

That's not to say I don't think I can't also say 'I am a woman', if one thinks of 'woman' and 'man' as two overlapping fuzzy sets. Ok, I'm not in the same part of 'woman' as someone born female, but if I say that the overall set of woman includes people who identify as female then I feel it is quite legitimate for me to say 'I'm a woman'. (Ok, it means some people will think I'm a loony, lol, but that doesn't really matter).

Interesting. Math specialization? Good analogy. I just haven't heard that phrase in a long time.

Lastly, I don't think in and of itself when people transition or if they transition at all really says anything about the underlying causes. Categorizing people in that way is grouping people by outcome not by underlying causes. You can make guesses about causes based on outcome but I don't think anything conclusive, because I think the outcomes are due to a complex interaction between biology, personality and societal factors.

Your causes are your own. It took me a while to realize this. I kept getting weirded out because I didn't seem to have the same causes as other people, which caused me to invalidate myself. There are two forms of dysphoria and I expect that we all have both of them, physical and gender. My physical dysphoria far outweighs my gender dysphoria. I'm still trying to deal with the gender side because it's like a moving target. On the physical side I have an absolute need to transition and transition now. I am so sick and tired of seeing the wrong body, I'm not sure how much longer I can take it.

Maybe I could actually physically transition without dealing with the gender issues and get by. I doubt it. That would be a very lonely experience, possibly more lonely than I am now. Right now I've chosen not to date because I can't take being seen as a man in a relationship. I'd imagine when I'm finally comfortable in my own skin that I'd have a need to have another relationship, but how can I do that if I'm not presenting myself as the gender norm of a woman? Anybody with me will be caught off guard as soon as we become intimate. So then I'm stuck. I disagree with assigning gender to traits, but since the rest of the world disagrees with me, I'm stuck conforming in order to be comfortable in my own skin. It's like I'm jumping out of one cage and into another.

[spacial]

I had quite a lot of problems with this article when it was first featured here.

This, from the original, for example:

I really couldn't tell you why trans* people have become so much more interesting to the media and acceptable to governments than they once were, but I welcome the change, since I'm one of them.

The answer is obvious. People like reading about us. To the public, were a sort of gay, but safe. In much the same way as the media like attractive lesbians, but gay men, (Elton John and David Furnish), are just queens. Sort of camp funny. Wouldn't want them around too often though.

Now, I knew. I always did. But the question should be, what it is that I knew?

I knew something wasn't right, that I didn't like playing with boys because they were rough, smelly and competitive. I was desperately unhappy when I was forced to be with them. But that was dismissed for me, as for many others like me, as a 4 year old being a coward!! Weak, needs toughening up.

But someone identified as a girl is allowed that leaway. They are allwoed, at an early age, right up until pubatry, to be tom boys. They can do boy things, play with boys and be competitve. They can always fall back into their 'natural femininity' if they get frightened. (When a boy does this he needs to be a man and grow up). (At 4 years old!!).

So I'm sorry, but the basic thesis is based upon a misunderstanding of the relative situations we find ourselves in.

Now let me add here, because I want to. Trangender people, born with female bodys have enormous problems to deal with. I am not in any way, suggesting otherwise. But because they have less pressure to conform to a gender stereo type, (usually, there are significant exceptions), it is quite normal for many FtM to figure things out later.

But I think they do still know.

[Q]

Finally! Someone with similar viewpoints to mine. When I say this to people, it either ends the thread or people stop talking to me lol. I don't actually look at myself as just electrical impluses, but I do look at my self as just a series of chemical reactions. I also agree that it would be nice to have a spiritual side though.

Ah, yes. I can imagine it might cause a bit of debate. They are just two different ways of thinking about life though; not more or less legitimate. Really, there is no purpose to arguing about them, as neither side can, ultimately, prove or disprove the others arguments. If someone is happy, then that's great as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting. Math specialization? Good analogy. I just haven't heard that phrase in a long time.

You're right it is a math(s) inspired analogy – not that I would proclaim to be a mathematics expert though!

There are two forms of dysphoria and I expect that we all have both of them, physical and gender.

I did think about there being separate aspects of physical and role incongruence as I was writing, but didn't mention it because I thought I'd already written quite a bit. I would agree that one needs to consider what it is that one is experiencing, whether it's one or both and to what degree, etc. I was actually thinking that, in itself, the 'real life experience / test' concept mainly tests the role aspect, but not so much the physical aspect... and that that was why caution in respect of physical changes was probably wise, since it's not so easy to test likely reaction.

My physical dysphoria far outweighs my gender dysphoria. I'm still trying to deal with the gender side because it's like a moving target. On the physical side I have an absolute need to transition and transition now. I am so sick and tired of seeing the wrong body, I'm not sure how much longer I can take it.

Maybe I could actually physically transition without dealing with the gender issues and get by. I doubt it. That would be a very lonely experience, possibly more lonely than I am now. Right now I've chosen not to date because I can't take being seen as a man in a relationship. I'd imagine when I'm finally comfortable in my own skin that I'd have a need to have another relationship, but how can I do that if I'm not presenting myself as the gender norm of a woman? Anybody with me will be caught off guard as soon as we become intimate. So then I'm stuck. I disagree with assigning gender to traits, but since the rest of the world disagrees with me, I'm stuck conforming in order to be comfortable in my own skin. It's like I'm jumping out of one cage and into another.

It's a conundrum, for sure. I think it comes down to understanding that we can have issues whatever we do and working out how we feel most comfortable. Easier said than done of course at times, and we all have days when we just want to say 'pffff, logical thinking, what do I want to do that for' – and cry into our beer, lol.

[Q]

I had quite a lot of problems with this article when it was first featured here.

This, from the original, for example:
The answer is obvious. People like reading about us. To the public, were a sort of gay, but safe. In much the same way as the media like attractive lesbians, but gay men, (Elton John and David Furnish), are just queens. Sort of camp funny. Wouldn't want them around too often though.

Now, I knew. I always did. But the question should be, what it is that I knew?

I knew something wasn't right, that I didn't like playing with boys because they were rough, smelly and competitive. I was desperately unhappy when I was forced to be with them. But that was dismissed for me, as for many others like me, as a 4 year old being a coward!! Weak, needs toughening up.

But someone identified as a girl is allowed that leaway. They are allwoed, at an early age, right up until pubatry, to be tom boys. They can do boy things, play with boys and be competitve. They can always fall back into their 'natural femininity' if they get frightened. (When a boy does this he needs to be a man and grow up). (At 4 years old!!).

So I'm sorry, but the basic thesis is based upon a misunderstanding of the relative situations we find ourselves in.

Now let me add here, because I want to. Trangender people, born with female bodys have enormous problems to deal with. I am not in any way, suggesting otherwise. But because they have less pressure to conform to a gender stereo type, (usually, there are significant exceptions), it is quite normal for many FtM to figure things out later.

But I think they do still know.

I think there are pluses and minuses to living the role of a man or woman and we can all lament things the other side has that we don't, whether in childhood or adulthood. I can think of things I like and dislike about both, not that that changes my sense of self though.

I agree that there's a difference between how we express ourselves and how we feel about ourselves. Also, that there are differences in the leeway societies give to the genders to express themselves... Much as I might like to change how things are, I can't.

[Nero]

Now let me add here, because I want to. Trangender people, born with female bodys have enormous problems to deal with. I am not in any way, suggesting otherwise. But because they have less pressure to conform to a gender stereo type, (usually, there are significant exceptions), it is quite normal for many FtM to figure things out later.

But I think they do still know.

I actually really agree with this. On some level, I was the 'significant exception', sent away to a hospital at 14 for being too inappropriately male for a girl. But I also don't think the pressure I experienced was anything like an effeminate boy experiences. Also, because I had such a dominant personality and was immune to peer pressure, I really didn't feel too much discomfort socially. I wasn't treated like the other girls. It was far more about my body for me. I mean, sure it bothered me that girls hated me. But there wasn't much I could do about that.

As for the OP, I won't say 'I've always known'. I did try to communicate it to my mother at a young age that I was a boy. But I certainly went into denial around puberty.

[Cassandra Hyacinth]

It always frustrates me because these phrases do nothing to deconstruct society's erroneous views on gender - "X trapped in a Y's body" implies that there are certain bodies that men and women should have to be considered men and women. "I've always known..." reinforces the idea that gender is a binary, and immutable (it is not a binary, and need not be immutable) In fact, I'd argue even the idea of biological sex itself is a method by which gender identities have been forced onto bodies seen as being a certain 'type'.

At the same time, I don't blame any trans people who do use these phrases - if they hold some level of truth for them on a personal level, that's absolutely fine. And it's incredibly difficult to elaborate on one's experiences with being transgender when the English language (and really, most other languages) are infused with the very same fallacious ideas about sex and gender that hurt us.

Out of all the stock phrases, though, the one that annoys me by far the most is 'born a man' - no one is born a man.

[Lesley_Roberta]

I haven't always known, but hindsight is definitely an interesting asset to possess.

You look back and you realize 'hmm that makes a lot more sense now'.

I wonder to myself, how can I know what it is to be a woman, having spent a life in a male body. But they you are left to wonder, ok, what makes a woman think having had the female body gives her a magical benefit over me? If I am not my sex organs, then neither is she and thus we can over rule her having them being a magical bonus.

So it comes down to 'what exactly is it to feel womanly?' And for that, it really comes down to what do we consider the ideal to be, and do we match the ideal?

[peky]

As always there is a failure on semantics and definitions....this thread creates a confusion by mixing what is biological innate and what are social constructs... 


So, biological speaking on the (Always Known) I would say that I always knew tthat my gender was female....

So, biologically speaking a postop MTF transsexual will know how it felt to have a penis and an erection, and also what it feels to be penetrated and have several orgasm... as a po-MTF would never know how is to be pregnant or deliver...but so is true for many cis-females....etc...So, yes we are all slaves to our gens and hormones yet that does not detract from the human experience of being true to your gender...


So, as far as social constructs...well, they are mine and I chose to make whatever I want out of them.. For example:

I do not use the term "transition" to refer to me but rather "abandoning the forced male role;

as a mature female who has single-handily raised 5 children, I consider myself a "woman;"

as a fashionist, culture-vulture, scholar and bon vivant woman, I consider myself a "Lady;" 

as a lady of sciences devoted to my country, I consider myself a  female warrior...

[Q]

As always there is a failure on semantics and definitions....this thread creates a confusion by mixing what is biological innate and what are social constructs... 


So, biological speaking on the (Always Known) I would say that I always knew tthat my gender was female....

So, biologically speaking a postop MTF transsexual will know how it felt to have a penis and an erection, and also what it feels to be penetrated and have several orgasm... as a po-MTF would never know how is to be pregnant or deliver...but so is true for many cis-females....etc...So, yes we are all slaves to our gens and hormones yet that does not detract from the human experience of being true to your gender...


So, as far as social constructs...well, they are mine and I chose to make whatever I want out of them.. For example:

I do not use the term "transition" to refer to me but rather "abandoning the forced male role;

as a mature female who has single-handily raised 5 children, I consider myself a "woman;"

as a fashionist, culture-vulture, scholar and bon vivant woman, I consider myself a "Lady;" 

as a lady of sciences devoted to my country, I consider myself a  female warrior...

I don't disagree with anything you've said Peky. You are talking about slightly different things to what I was thinking of though, so I agree that I was evidently not clear enough.

In respect of 'always known', I was speaking only on a mental level of what it means mentally to know in ones own mind.... That is, what it means to inherently know irrespective of the entirety of the physical form of the body either at birth or subsequent to any changes; irrespective of any feedback society may, at any point, give; and irrespective of anything one does in life.

When I mentioned biology I was meaning the biology of the brain only, rather than whether one possesses a penis or vagina, or any other physical biological aspects.

When I mentioned societal factors I was meaning what behaviours are considered acceptable for men and women in a given society and I was meaning the influence those societal factors have on when people express their feelings or take action on them.

I like your term for transition and I like the examples you've given of why you consider yourself a woman, lady and female warrior – they all sound very positive and affirming. 

[Rachel]

From 4 to 5 or so I knew I felt very wrong as far as my sex. At 7 I planned to castrate myself, but did not do it. At 11 I wanted to end my life when my voice cracked, but did not do it. Did I always know I wanted to be a women? No, I wanted to be a little girl and play with my girl friends. As I got older males were more appealing then females for sexual relations. I had a long term relationship with a male in high school. I think guys are more appealing sexually but pigs in most all other areas.  Women are pretty much perfect but I am less sexually attracted to them. There is more to sex than your primary attraction so overall women are equal to men in my sexual desire.

I will think twice when I define my past, some very good points were made.

I agree, having a society that puts us in and through hell is hell. I to finally appreciate what my male self did to cope and survive.

[michelle]

I find myself at 66 years old identifying my self as a woman and presenting myself as such 24/7/ 365.   When I was born just over 66 years ago, my physical appearance at birth had me labelled as a baby boy and I was raised as such.  Much of my life has been spent trying to understand how I got from there to here.     Susan's and the concepts presented upon this site and others help me to do this because they provide me with the linguistic concepts to do so.    Since much of this journey is subjective it seems counterproductive to characterize the these insights in terms of truth and lies or right and wrong.    What we really have is approximations and probabilities to the understanding of our lives.    As we interact here we are developing the language and concepts which help us to better understand ourselves with a greater probability that our understanding approaches some resemblance of reality.   

What we do know is that we were born physically and labeled as one gender and for some reason identified our selves as the gender that did not have the physical gender characteristics of our bodies.    Yes some of us were born with both male and female physical characteristics and the powers that be chose our gender for us.   

I can look back at my past to try and understand when I first felt that I was not a male but I identified myself as a female, and at my age its kind of fuzzy now.  Even though at puberty I was more attracted to femininity, there was nothing that I felt that I could do about it, except day dream about being a female.   As I got older, way older,  I decided that reality was a better determiner than fantasy and began dressing more and more as a woman hoping that if I was a male I would reject my fantasies out of hand.   I discovered that indeed that being a female was my reality and being a male was a fantasy forced upon me by society.

But all of this is subjective and it is pointless to label either reality as lying to myself because there is no objective reality to provide as a reference point in the matrix.   What there is is a universe of individuals who identify themselves as male and a universe of individuals that identify themselves a females.  We can ourselves in reference of these two universes.   We can identify ourselves as males or females as both or as neither or in some universal set as to be defined.   

My body puts me in the male set, but I put myself in the female set.   Each set consists of all the behaviors that every one who identifies with the set exemplifies.

Any philosophical construct we use to organize our reality is linguistically and intellectually constructed by the members of the society who constructed it as is the language used to describe it.   But we can only understand ourselves within the context of our life's experiences.    Broadening our experiences increases our understandings.   

Its really kind of pointless to attack the language by which we try and understand ourselves and to label our conclusions as lies by using very narrow interpretations of what individuals are trying to express here about themselves and how they are developing as individuals.

We can try an understand what others are saying about their lives and we can broaden our concepts and  understanding and our language about what it means to be transgender and what it means for each of us to transition our identities.   

You can chose to interpret when an individual says that they have always know that they were male or female to mean that what they meant was that as far back as they can remember they identified with this particular gender relative to some significant event in their lives by which they can determine their age at that time.   

Also some of us grow up in families that build memories and some of us grow up in families that live totally in the present and the past even moments ago is never discussed and fades quickly from memory.     My family did little to build memories so I have had to build my past memories on where I lived and what grade I was in and what school I went to.   The death of my father is an important milestone for me and also entering kindergarten which was marked by a wasp going down the back of my shirt and stinging me several times and my cousin forgetting to pick me up after school and I had to wait until her step dad came and got me.

Yes and because many of us were not free to explore our sexual identity as children but we were socialized into roles many of us feel that we were forced to live our lives as what we might call lies,  we might characterize our transitions as freeing ourselves from lies our society forced upon us,   what we end up doing by using the word lies is attach moral values to struggles and make transitioning a battle with the Gods.   

Being either male or female is not a moral issue and either is our gender identity so I feel that we should stop condemning ourselves by describing our transition in religious terms.

If we leave religion out of our gender struggles and just assume that we are all God's creatures who are just trying to discover who we really are we can just work our struggles out with God on our own terms.

I am stopping now because I am beginning to wander in my thoughts.   Accepting and understanding is the better pathway,  than negating and labeling using moralistic terminology.      Meaning is achieved through open discussion.   Narrowing meaning only brings darkness and confusion.   We can not define others out of existence, we only erase them from our own personal reality so they become invisible to ourselves. 

[Elspeth]

I actually really agree with this. On some level, I was the 'significant exception', sent away to a hospital at 14 for being too inappropriately male for a girl. But I also don't think the pressure I experienced was anything like an effeminate boy experiences. Also, because I had such a dominant personality and was immune to peer pressure, I really didn't feel too much discomfort socially. I wasn't treated like the other girls. It was far more about my body for me. I mean, sure it bothered me that girls hated me. But there wasn't much I could do about that.

This seems to echo a lot of what my son is going through, or has been through -- though his one hospital stay was related to anxiety issues that seem to have been related to his own self "coming out" -- no one was pressuring him into a hospital for being inappropriately male (though that might have been some of what was going on in the social conflicts that emerged from puberty onward?)

My ex remains puzzled, though she's getting much more comfortable lately calling him "he" -- we haven't really talked lately (my ex and myself) about what she has done in terms of having her own time with my son's gender therapist. But she has made various comments before, (in the past month or two) about how my son was raised with so few pressures to conform to stereotypes. Given that we had our son well after I had opened up fairly completely on my own issues, this has been something we've both puzzled about a bit, though for me, what it really seems to confirm in a conceptual way, is just how much of gender dysphoria (the feeling of a need to express and seek assistance to make the body conform to my notion (or my son's notion) of the physical sex that we each identify with.

I'm glad to see the questioning, but at some point I think questioning oneself on this is more of a delaying tactic (and potentially self-damaging) than it serves any real positive ends. A big part of me (at age 53) considers so much of my life as having been essentially wasted in doubt and self-questioning on this. It's an oversimplification to use the "always knew" trope as shorthand, but it's a simpler way of communicating something that can be complicated, and in the end is probably largely incomprehensible to someone not living through it.

Lastly, I don't think in and of itself when people transition or if they transition at all really says anything about the underlying causes. Categorizing people in that way is grouping people by outcome not by underlying causes. You can make guesses about causes based on outcome but I don't think anything conclusive, because I think the outcomes are due to a complex interaction between biology, personality and societal factors.

I can look at myself and see how you could have lots of different outcomes. When I see young children and teenagers now saying and doing the things I've done and parents who just say ok I've heard of trans people, you must be trans, let me support you... ok, I feel a little bit envious and pleased to see things moving on, but I also feel worried for them and whether they will be, or have been, sufficiently challenged to think...

What you (Q) didn't touch on regarding timing is, unless you fold it into "societal factors" is the practical issues, including those related to budgeting and ensuring the means to see oneself through transition.  I actually deluded myself at one point into thinking that "everyone else probably feels the way I do" since I could easily project my own misery onto others as a plausible motivating factor for why, for instance, guys seemed to do all kinds of things I considered strange and incomprehensible. I figured they were doing them (sports, crazy risk taking, etc.) because they felt a loathing for their maleness, and such actions were a socially sanctioned way of coping with the self-loathing I, at one point, rationalized as common to all male-bodied people.  An awfully convoluted way to think about things, but it didn't strike me as any less absurd than much of the unprovable notions that were common in psych theories at the time I was thinking this.

While I've described before how I was one of those who "always knew" I was also very attached to various people in my life, and greatly fearful of being rejected by them... just one of many ways I rationalized delaying coming out to them... there were a lot of those.

I really want to challenge you to think more about what you're saying in that last paragraph. Personally, I don't really see what my son is likely to gain from being "challenged to think more" about this. He faces some pressure to do that from my ex that is going to be inevitable, as it is -- and there are things he's thinking hard about in terms of making decisions about what particular procedures he wants or doesn't want as part of transitioning. I really don't believe that greater acceptance and less familial conflict are in any way negative factors when it comes to individual life courses and narratives.

I have some very abstract concerns about society and the definition(s) of transitioning in terms of techniques and procedures... and I do think (or at least hope) that society at large needs to consider those things more in depth.

But, in the meanwhile, individuals need to live their lives as best as they can, in the societies where we find ourselves.

I really don't see too much intrinsic value for "us" in internalizing a conceptual rethinking that may or may not ever be completely finished or be based on accurate and objective facts.  The more that becomes known and resolved (if that ever happens) in terms of coming to understand the underlying cause(s) of our condition, and what the best, ideal practices are for us in terms of finding ways to cope with that condition, the better for everyone, I would imagine.

[spacial]

Been thinking this further over night.

There's a line from Burns, 'Was' a gift a giftie gee us, tae see orrsels as ithers see us'

As Humans, we all preceive ourselves very differently from other's preception.

Now many of us here will have endured the, somewhat patronising, yet well intended, compliments as we are growing up. One I recall, in particular, came when I was about 21 or 22. My transformation from a child into an adult came slowly and in spurts, so I was able to pass easily at 18. Indeed, for much of my teenage years, I was probably able to pass. But I bulked out at about 20 or so and my chin, in particular, enlarged. I recall, walking with my mother, through a local fair, near to where she lived. A woman, manning a stall, recognised my mother and called out, 'Hi there, is that your son? My he's become such a strapping young man'.

Though she couldn't have known it, that was the most hurtful thing anyone had ever said. It was the final nail in any realistic intention I had had to live comfortably. I had become what I dreaded.

Now it has occured to me, that most people seem to have little discomfort with their gender. They may have different preceptions of their own physicality, but they still are accepting of it.

Most men behave is a predictable manner to insinuations of their sexual interests or capabilities.

Most women are essentially accepting in a resignation sort of way, to having periods.

When I first started in Susans' I was aware of transgender people living with FtM, but that was all. I had practically no experience, had never consciouly met any and had found very little information, anywhere. Indeed, I assumed that the notion was rather strange, since why would anyone willingly want to abandon what I had longed for? In a selfiish way, it made no sense to me at all.

Then I come here and met many. There was one, in particular, who wrote just like any other educated man. Indeed, it is sometimes said, that even the most skilled authors have a problem passing themselves off as the opposite gender when they write. Yet every indication was that this was a man. Then he used a term which brought the full horror of what FtM transgender people face, Red Death!

In my case, I remember the very first time I wrote the words, I'm a GIRL! to people who know my physical condition. (Talk about a high. Those moments only come once!). I live with the routine experience of what I call the rage. A time when I feel that male energy building up side of me, yet because I can't express it, it ties my insides into knots. My guts feel like wrung clothes, my cheast feels like its being beaten with a hammer, my ears and sometimes, my nose, go on fire and my head needs to explode. I'm 56 now. years of that have finally taken theit toll and I have heart failure. I finally see an end in sight.

I read from people here talking about their frustrations with being treated as female and I think I understand.

My own frustration with being treated as male are a symptom of the same problem transgender.

Which leads me to view transgender as a problem of our preception, but of ourselves. Others don't see us as we see ourselves. Where I see a girl, others see an increasingly frustrated, and therefore, challanging little boy. Where I see a female nurse, atending to the personal care, others see a male nurse, getting overly friendly and too poofy.

It brings me back to a much eariler theory I had on the origins of gender non-conformaty, namely, that in the feral stage of human existance, from about 3 million years to about 40,000 years ago, not all members of a tribe would have been within the two extremes of gender identity. The so called Binary gender identity. That those, like us, within the centre formed a constructive and important buffer role with the structure of a tribal society.

We're made this way. Some sort of cosmic joke. Perhaps some karma from an earlier, misplaced existance. But like it or not, we're the way we are. We didn't discover our wish to be the opposite sex. We came to terms with the very real frustrations of being forced to live in a way that is insulting, offensive and isolating.

It isn't about what our birth gender is, or sexuality, our racial or nation or social class origins. We each share the same, utterly identical problem, Transgender. That we have different experiences is to be expected. That for some, the realisation comes later, even much, much later, is irrelevant. As humans it is in our natures to see to function as best we can. A transgender persona will seek to live according to their assigned roles and it is only when they finally hit that wall, where they simply cannot go on, that is when realisation happens.

For me, that came when I was 4 and told I couldn't play with my friends because boys don't play with girls. For others, it may come in middle age, after years of successful mariage, career, parenting.

But it will happen to each of us, eventually. Because, in reality, it already has.

[Lesley_Roberta]

I'm not sure I am evious for those that have 'always known' or not.

I'd like to have lived all of my life as 'me' even if it meant 50 years of me and frustrated.

But, I don't see me as being in 'transition' and I must confess, every time I hear the term or see it written it annoys me.

I have not 'become' a woman, nor am I 'becoming' a woman, I was never a man to begin with, I was simply not aware I was wrong for 50 years.

I think the hardest part for a lot of people, is just saying the phrase 'I was/am wrong'. It's the root reason so much of life is such a pain. Because there are so many people out there, that are wrong about so many things (not just gender issues), and they will start wars over arguing the matter.

I am not a man. I have use of male hardware, but that's not permanent. My being a woman though, that is. I didn't decide to be one. It is not a choice, a preference a lifestyle that's for sure.

[Zumbagirl]

Maybe I am different but I do know that when I was child I knew something was different about me but I didn't know what it was. I had no words to describe how I felt. I liked hanging around with the girls in the neighborhood when I had the chance. Of course the mothers were suspicious with me "not being a girl". I used to sneak and play dress up any time I could get. I did like the princess thing. In all honesty if I were that age and sat down in front of a shrink I don't know what I would have done or said or for that matter not said. I am pretty sure I would have clammed up and withdrawn out of fear. My parents did their damnedest to put the fear of god in me but it didn't work. I would be good for a day and go back to my "crazy fairy" ways a day later. Yet still I didn't know what was wrong with me. I finally figured it out in my 20s but buried the feelings with work. If I worked 60 hours a week then it solved everything, for a while anyways. Eventually I knew enough about myself that I knew what had to be done. The old line "the last act of a desperate man" applied to me perfectly. That's was when I finally took action.

I don't know how applicable childhood or adolescent cross dressing is for TS people. I did it, but I'm not so sure it was a trigger. I never wanted to be a dressed up boy I me wanted to a girl all the way, but I didn't know how to say it or there was even a word to describe it for that matter. Thankfully with the Internet I was able to figure it out.

Sometimes I never stop to give myself credit for taking on my problem head on. I wonder how long the feelings held deep in my internal pressure cooker took to finally explode and give me the courage I needed.

[Emily Aster]

In all honesty if I were that age and sat down in front of a shrink I don't know what I would have done or said or for that matter not said. I am pretty sure I would have clammed up and withdrawn out of fear. My parents did their damnedest to put the fear of god in me but it didn't work. I would be good for a day and go back to my "crazy fairy" ways a day later. Yet still I didn't know what was wrong with me. I finally figured it out in my 20s but buried the feelings with work. If I worked 60 hours a week then it solved everything, for a while anyways.

I did end up in a shrink's office as a kid, for depression, and I did exactly what you expect you would have done. I clammed up. I didn't know what was wrong, but I knew enough to know it was a source of shame after being punished so much for it. At the time, I was sure anything I said to that shrink would end up being relayed to my parents.

I did the same thing with work and still do actually. I kind of made a habit of focusing too much on work back then and it just kept going. But, if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be where I am in my career, so it's not all bad.

[Q]

I'm glad to see the questioning, but at some point I think questioning oneself on this is more of a delaying tactic (and potentially self-damaging) than it serves any real positive ends. A big part of me (at age 53) considers so much of my life as having been essentially wasted in doubt and self-questioning on this. It's an oversimplification to use the "always knew" trope as shorthand, but it's a simpler way of communicating something that can be complicated, and in the end is probably largely incomprehensible to someone not living through it.

Hmm... Elspeth, your post has made me think: Why am I actually writing this thread; what am I trying to get out of it? What am I really posting here for? And, I suppose there are a number of things which come to mind.

In part, I guess I am trying to reason myself into a place where I have decided and accepted, once and for all, that I'm never going to take any action towards transitioning in the future; so that I can mentally move forward. To do that, I need to solidify my thoughts better.

I think, for myself, although in the past I have said 'I've always known I'm a woman', I've come to realize that I do also identify with aspects of being male and my understanding of self is more complex. I feel I have probably not wanted to acknowledge that, in the past, in a subconscious effort to fit myself to other peoples notions of 'trans' people (mostly late 80's and 90's notions as I am in my late 30s now). I would still say I identify with being female to a far greater degree than male, but it's not a 100% thing.

I suppose I am trying to just be honest with myself about how I think and feel and to forget about what the medical profession thinks it knows about 'trans' people as I don't trust that they know what they're talking about and think that they're only just beginning to understand the real complexities of how 'trans' people think and feel about themselves. (sorry, if anyone reading is a member of the medical profession!)

So, it interests me both what other people think about how I am thinking and how other people think about and understand their identities; what their sense of self is. As, I feel I need to make comparisons to help me better evaluate and understand my own thoughts. I wonder what similarities and dissimilarities there are between myself and other people. It's difficult to work that out with simplified versions. I'd rather hear the versions that include the uncertainty and the self doubts that people have / had, so I can compare theirs (and how they deal with them) to mine. That's a lot to ask though and I guess probably not possible. It's also difficult to ask in a way that's tactful and doesn't upset people.

Another issue I suppose I have, that I wasn't intending to mention (as I wanted to stick to talking about myself), but is relevant here, is some of the conversations I've had with my dad over the years on this subject. My dad is now a woman. I didn't know he had any thoughts in this respect when I started trying to talk to my parents about this stuff. However, he did later tell me so and he later went on to live as a woman, etc. (I'm going to stick to 'he' here by the way as I'm thinking in a historical sense – we use both pronouns in our family depending on what time period we're thinking / talking about)

I have a reasonably good memory and I can say there has been quite some difference in some of things he has said to me over the years, not to mention a few wildly not correct things too. I can see there has been an evolution from initial doubts and uncertainty to a position of saying I was always a woman. I have also seen how he has used over simplification and so on in order to avoid questioning and as a form of self justification.

I don't blame him (or anyone else who has and don't suggest everyone does (take note people about to berate me because they don't do that! )) for doing any of these things as I understand why it happens. Really it has actually probably helped me recognize the same things in myself and made me question myself more. I do find it frustrating though and it does mean I have a bug bear with some of the oversimplification I see used.

There is a whole lot more I could say about my interfamily relations and 'trans' issues, but most of the issues actually come down to family dynamics rather than 'trans' issues themselves. I'd like some day if my dad and I could have a more honest and open discussion about these things. I don't think either of us is capable of it yet though, and I'm not sure if we'll get there before one of us runs out of time. At the moment we just leave it as something we don't talk about as it doesn't matter in day to day life. If I raise these things it makes my parents worry, and I get frustrated because they don't seem able to get past thinking of me as their child who doesn't understand anything about these things. I see it as something that will evolve as we all age, but for now I'm happy for this to stay something we don't talk about at the moment.

In regard to your point on delaying tactics -> if I were to accept that any outcomes were inevitable (which fortunately I don't) then I think I'd be inclined to say – well I may as well just shoot myself now then! (in a metaphorical rather than literal sense, I hasten to add).

I also feel a sense of wasted time, like you. I've spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about these things and it has touched all aspects of my life, but I feel I have had no choice and I've done the best I could and what I thought was right at the time.

What you (Q) didn't touch on regarding timing is, unless you fold it into "societal factors" is the practical issues, including those related to budgeting and ensuring the means to see oneself through transition. 

You're right, I forgot to include that one.

I really want to challenge you to think more about what you're saying in that last paragraph. Personally, I don't really see what my son is likely to gain from being "challenged to think more" about this. He faces some pressure to do that from my ex that is going to be inevitable, as it is -- and there are things he's thinking hard about in terms of making decisions about what particular procedures he wants or doesn't want as part of transitioning. I really don't believe that greater acceptance and less familial conflict are in any way negative factors when it comes to individual life courses and narratives.

Part of why I have included a bit about my own family above, is so I can answer you here.

There were a lot of things I was thinking about when I wrote that paragraph that I didn't go into detail on, in the interests of brevity.

I was imagining myself in the position of the parent of a 'trans' child, how I would react, what I would say. I was thinking about my own family and myself as a child. I was also thinking about my own fears and doubts. I was thinking about the ways in which my thoughts have changed and not changed since then. I was thinking about the conflict between transitioning early and the potential physical advantages that has versus having time to live and experience life.

Mostly I was thinking how very hard and complicated it all is. I was thinking, you know, I might actually say a lot of the same things my parents said to me back in the day... and wondering, jeez, am I turning into my parents already.

I don't know anything about your family, so can't comment. I expect you will all do the best you can though, and I wish you all good luck. 

PS: for the people commenting on the relative merits of the term 'transition'. I only use it because it's currently the most widely used and understood.

PPS: Thank you all for all the other comments – I'm thinking about them but don't have time to reply to them all at the moment.

[Keira]

I can't really say that I always knew 100%; but I knew My internal gender was very different than other kids my age (starting around 5-6ish). At the time I didn't know that it was my gender per say; but I knew that SOMETHING was different. As I started to get older and got into high school I progressively became more aware that I had to pretend to be male to fit in. I had no clue why boys acted the way they did, so I just copied them.

In a way I still thought I was male, even though I was pretending just to be male to fit in; I just thought they were pretending to fit in as well. Since my gender is female but my ideal outward expression is androgynous I didn't have too many problems with puberty or pretending to be male. I don't know if most boys enjoyed their puberty, but I was indifferent; except for the body hair I always hated that.

Later on when I was 15 y/o my repressed gender started coming back. All those years under a persona...I didn't know my behavior changed, or that I felt different. But my female side began to break through the false persona....and when I fully grasped what was happening it shocked me. Just to clarify, when I say I have a female identity I say it just for the sake of clarity. At my core I feel female, but to a small degree I also feel tomboy/androgynous/genderqueer; hence I am transexual, just not a normative transexual.

Throughout my teen years I fought depression, although I never really knew where it came from. I guess pretending to be someone else can result in a person feeling unloved. How can someone feel loved when no one sees them for who they are. Although at the time...all I thought I needed was a girlfriend.

And so here I am, trying to convince myself that I'm just OCD or a hypochondriac. At the same time I can't convince my mom that I'm trans. I'm still holding the male persona up as though it was a cardboard mask; although I mostly use it in the presence of masculine males.

Sometimes I really hate my life.

[Kaelin]

The bad thing with dominant narratives within the TG community is that they make it more difficult for people within it to build their own narrative.  This issue also makes it difficult for many people who are seriously looking at the TG family of identities to find a home within in.  A positive thing about dominant narratives within the TG community is that they may give it a better chance of cutting through the narratives pumped out in society at large.

The reality is that people figure things out in different ways and at different times.  Whatever dissonance TGs are supposed to feel can be delayed due to how they are socialized, and the prism which we feel gender will change as our own bodies develop and as others treat us differently (for reasons age-specific and otherwise).  The problem here is that this complexity makes for a more complicated argument in terms of legitimacy, but given the relative difficulties and resistance of living as such, I'd say TSs are more like to be correct about their gender than non-TSs, and their gender shouldn't be questioned any more than a non-TS's (with the possible exception of screening-within-reason before administering a medical transition).  Non-TS TGs likewise have their own narratives (first that they even exist within the GLBT alliance).

I think this matter boils down to people with no/low information wanting to make decisions about other people.  It has to stop, and it impacts more than TGs.