Cis or Neutrois: how to tell the difference?

[AlexD]

Hi folks. I've mostly kept to the transsexual forums until now, but lately I've been wondering if perhaps I should question around here for a bit. Some brief context: I'm still unsure of what I am. All I really know for sure is that I can't bear to live as a female, but figuring out whether I'm trans or just a self-loathing cis misogynist is completely impossible.

Lately I've been reading the blog of Natalie Reed, and I was struck by her description of the way cis people experience gender identity. To quote from her FAQ:

[Question] I myself don't really feel like I have a gender identity at all. It seems like I just don't really care. That makes it really hard for me to understand transgenderism. Is it possible to just not really have a gender identity, or not experience it very strongly?

[Answer] One of the aspects of cis privilege is the capacity to sort of take gender for granted. Since you don't experience any strong conflict between your sense of gender identity and your body, gender ends up seeming like a very natural thing, not something that needs to be worried about, a given, "no big deal". In people who aren't particularly, exaggeratedly masculine or feminine, this can end up feeling like not really having a gender identity at all, since there's no discord or strife or pronounced feelings to grant the gender identity a definitive shape. Instead, you are able to simply perceive yourself as "just" you. It's sort of like people regarding themselves as not having an accent, or white people sort of feeling like they don't really have a race. Does that make sense?
That said, there are non-binary, bi-gendered, androgynous, neuter and genderqueer identities, but these are typically experienced as being in conflict with the binary assignment.

I feel like this description should be able to clarify my feelings for me, but it doesn't. I often feel like I don't have a gender identity, that I'm neither male nor female, but I still experience a lot of distress over my assigned gender; yet it doesn't take on a "definitive shape" that I can point to and say "ah, yes, see, I am a Q in an XX body". Does that make me neutrois? The problem is, living as non-binary doesn't strike me as a great solution to feeling desperately out of place in a binary society. I want to fit into the binary so much, but I don't want to live as a woman, and I feel like I'll never be able to live as a man, because I'm too pathetic, too feminine, too much of a girl, too... cis. I don't know what to do.

I suppose a genuinely cis person probably wouldn't be in tears typing out a post like this, but maybe I'm just crazy.

[Edge]

There is a huge difference between hating women and not being one.

[AlexD]

There is a huge difference between hating women and not being one.

Gosh, that was illuminating.

[Edge]

Well, how exactly is it impossible to tell if you're trans or a "self loathing cis misogynist?"

[AlexD]

Well, how exactly is it impossible to tell if you're trans or a "self loathing cis misogynist?"

You sound quite defensive. I'm not trying to imply that trans people in general are just self-loathing, in denial, whatever. I'm saying that *I* don't know if I'm a true trans person or if I've somehow deluded myself by over-thinking things. I'm the freak here, not you. Stop worrying.

[AlexD]

Anyway getting back to the original poster.

A couple questions that might or might not help clarify things:

-What kind of distress do you feel when associated with a binary identity of either kind?

-Could you imagine living life as an effeminate man?

-Could you imagine a life never being able to live as a man socially, physically, etc?

-Do you feel any preference for certain pronouns or presentations gender wise?


If I were you I would just keep asking and answering questions like this. Its what I try to do to help sort my feelings. Someone on YT once said their therapist suggested to write letters. Corrospondance letters between the masculine and feminine sides of yourself talking to one another and seeing what that brings up.

Do you have a therapist to speak to btw? That might help.

Yeah, I have a therapist, but he's treating me for depression, rather than gender, and he's been reluctant to discuss gender issues because they're not his specialty. He's willing to refer me to a gender specialist once he's done with me, but I think he thinks I'll get over the gender stuff by then. I suppose the fact I have a lot of pre-existing mental issues contributes to my gender confusion, but I'm scared that when my depression is cured, I'll suddenly realise I was a cis woman all along. I probably shouldn't be scared of that, but I don't want it to happen. I just wish I knew if I was scared of it because I'm trans or because I'm sick.

[Nero]

Well, I know the whole "self loathing cis misogynist" thing has been used against us. DrillQuip has a good set of questions there. I guess I'd also ask 'why' do you want so desperately to fit into the binary when you don't seem to have a binary sense of gender?

[AlexD]

Well, I know the whole "self loathing cis misogynist" thing has been used against us.

Yeah, I know the whole misogyny thing is an old, tired and wrong argument, and I do feel guilty about suggesting that maybe it's correct in my case. But what if it is true for me?

[ativan]

Dysphoria. Comes in many shapes and sizes. Get a  gender therapist.
There could be more issues than you think.
If you are having problems with your self image of gender, then you need to.
Any therapist who won't refer you to a another therapist is pretty piss poor.
Not trying to sound mean here or anything. I have my share of problems and see a therapist weekly.
Read it, think about it. It's what it sounds like to me. Maybe multiple causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysphoria

Ativan

[Edge]

I don't mean to sound defensive. I'm just confused because I don't understand what the connection is.
When I was wondering about my gender issues, I was scared I'd turn out to be a cis woman, so you're not alone there. For me, it was part of what made me realize that I am trans.
If you could live as any gender you want, what gender would you live as? (It's ok if you can't answer this now.)

[Nero]

Well, I know the whole "self loathing cis misogynist" thing has been used against us.

Yeah, I know the whole misogyny thing is an old, tired and wrong argument, and I do feel guilty about suggesting that maybe it's correct in my case. But what if it is true for me?

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. It's not a very popular sentiment, but I'm of the belief that not every single person who has ever questioned their gender is trans/not cis. There are rare cases of people transitioning or whatever only to realize they identify as cis. So, it's good you're exploring this.

I think I'd probably start with asking yourself what you don't like about being female or living female. If most of the answers wouldn't hold true in a non sexist society maybe that is the issue. Not to suggest it's that simple or anything. But it's a start.

[AlexD]

I think I'd probably start with asking yourself what you don't like about being female or living female. If most of the answers wouldn't hold true in a non sexist society maybe that is the issue. Not to suggest it's that simple or anything. But it's a start.

Yeah, a huge amount of it is specific to our sexist society. That's why I suspect misogyny. The only thing I can cling to as proof of trans-ness is that most cis women don't go though this level of dysphoria... but then, most cis women aren't basketcases like me. Bah.

[suzifrommd]

You sound quite defensive. I'm not trying to imply that trans people in general are just self-loathing, in denial, whatever. I'm saying that *I* don't know if I'm a true trans person or if I've somehow deluded myself by over-thinking things. I'm the freak here, not you. Stop worrying.

Don't know if it helps, but one of my trans friends likes to remind me that cis people generally don't spend time and energy figuring out what gender they are. That's pretty much a uniquely trans thing.

[Nero]

You sound quite defensive. I'm not trying to imply that trans people in general are just self-loathing, in denial, whatever. I'm saying that *I* don't know if I'm a true trans person or if I've somehow deluded myself by over-thinking things. I'm the freak here, not you. Stop worrying.

Don't know if it helps, but one of my trans friends likes to remind me that cis people generally don't spend time and energy figuring out what gender they are. That's pretty much a uniquely trans thing.

While that may be generally true, I know someone personally for whom it was not the case - a relative who came out to me as ftm and was adamant about going the whole nine yards (phalloplasty and everything). It was all she would go on about for months. Cut her hair off, started dressing differently and everything. Later, she told me she was indeed not trans and had felt that way because of her rape.

I don't know whether it's different for mtfs, but there certainly are reasons a cis woman may start identifying as male. Perhaps believing it's safer to live that way. There are some strong arguments that Brandon Teena may have been the same way. It wouldn't necessarily have to be something as brutal as sexual assault either. If someone has been continually abused/mistreated/suffered because they are female, they could convince themselves of the need to transition. Especially since it's out there now, publicized. Everyone knows it's now an option to live as the other sex. And while I get the 'you're obsessed with this, you're probably trans' sentiment, it could be destructive to someone like that.

This whole thing is a very touchy, gray area. So many assigned-female-at-birth persons have suffered sexual assault of one kind or another at some point in their lives, trans or not. So clearly assault itself is not an indication of anything. Neither is being a victim of sexism in some way. But history is rife with women who have chosen to live as men for whatever reason (and I strongly doubt most were trans). Because of misogyny and female abuse, there's this 'different element' for AFAB persons that's not present in the same way for AMAB people.

And of course, the idea we transition to escape sexism has been used against us. So, I'm trying to be careful with this while pointing out that some AFAB have considered transition for reasons other than being trans. I'm really grateful that my loved one was not put on hormones/given surgery, etc before she was able to realize what was really going on with her. (I don't know if she actually saw a gender therapist or not). Especially since ftm HRT is so potent and largely irreversible. If I wanted to live as a woman again, I would have a very hard time due to permanent changes. I'd be in a similar position as an mtf. But my breasts would not redevelop.

So while I get that the 'you're on here, you're probably trans' can be a good point, I have to point out that it's not true for everyone who has questioned their gender. Even dysphoria is not always a reliable indicator as my female relative was pretty detached from her body (and ready to change it) because of the rape.

[Q]

[...]I don't know whether it's different for mtfs, but there certainly are reasons a cis woman may start identifying as male.[...]

I agree with your post Not-so Fat Admin.

I also think there are similar things for AMAB people. I know I have asked myself whether I started identifying as female because I wanted to be more like a woman and it wasn't allowed...

I don't think I really agree with the concept of there being strict boundaries of 'cis' people and 'trans' people, as such, now that I think about it either. Nothing in life is ever black and white. All people are individuals to my mind.

[...]So while I get that the 'you're on here, you're probably trans' can be a good point, I have to point out that it's not true for everyone who has questioned their gender. Even dysphoria is not always a reliable indicator as my female relative was pretty detached from her body (and ready to change it) because of the rape.[...]

Bearing in mind that I'm not convinced there are strict boundaries between 'cis' people and 'trans' people, I also agree with you here. To my mind, all someone's being here means (assuming that they're not here for other reasons) is that they're in some way questioning / exploring something about gender boundaries... nothing more or less.

I also don't agree with the sometimes suggested idea that if you have gender dysphoria it's automatically going to get worse overtime and you're ultimately going to have a meltdown, either. That's just a supposition based on it arguably being the case for some people. Nothing is inevitable and there are always choices in how we deal with whatever things we have to deal with in life, in my opinion.

[...]I often feel like I don't have a gender identity, that I'm neither male nor female, but I still experience a lot of distress over my assigned gender; yet it doesn't take on a "definitive shape" that I can point to and say "ah, yes, see, I am a Q in an XX body". Does that make me neutrois? The problem is, living as non-binary doesn't strike me as a great solution to feeling desperately out of place in a binary society. I want to fit into the binary so much, but I don't want to live as a woman, and I feel like I'll never be able to live as a man, because I'm too pathetic, too feminine, too much of a girl, too... cis. I don't know what to do.[...]

AlexD: I think it's perfectly normal to not think about gender identity all the time, whether one is 'cis', 'trans' or whatever else anyone comes up with. It's not the only thing that defines who we are and what interests us, after all.

Years ago, I used to be much more: "I'm a woman, I must live as a woman, or else", but I've kind of mellowed a bit with age and a long time of questioning my thinking.

Now, I'm much more of the position that it's ok to hold competing concepts of identity in my mind at the same time and not have them resolve to a single thing. Possibly this is my way of making sense of being born with a male body and living as a man for almost 40 years but also strongly identifying myself as female in my mind for most of that time.

Why does our sense of gender identity have to have a 'definitive shape'? We have to find ways to live in the world with other people, but we can think what we like in our own heads.

There are good and bad things about being male or female... I think I've stopped feeling I need to deny the good things of being male, whereas in the past I might have felt like admitting them meant I was negating, or that people wouldn't accept, that I thought of myself as female...

So, I think I would say, does it really matter if you're feminine but also think of yourself as male, or if you 'identify' with different aspects of male and female?

This all being said, I don't have everything figured out either. I intensely long to have been born female, but it isn't reality and never will be. If you read my posts you'll see I still have my freak out moments too.

I feel like I'm rambling and will probably need to reread this another day as I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well. I just wanted to tell you some of my thinking, in case it is in anyway helpful for you.

ps: DrillQuip I liked your post too... but I also need to do sleeping!

[ativan]

http://genderfork.com/2011/schrodingers-gender/

[Q]

http://genderfork.com/2011/schrodingers-gender/

lol, I like it.

[AlexD]

Thank you for the responses. I feel like I should say more, but I don't really know what to say. I'm not very good at difficult threads like this, I suppose.

I saw my therapist on Friday. We went though a worksheet where I had to rate various aspects of my life (relationships, work, hobbies, etc) according to how important they were to me and how satisfied I was with them. When health and body image came up, I said I was very satisfied and that it wasn't important at all. This was mostly because I assumed it was about fitness, and I genuinely don't mind being an unfit blob of idleness... but it did occur to me that I should mention gender. But I didn't. The fact that I'm so damn embarrassed aboout bringing it up with my therapist of all people probably suggests something. I was even more embarrassed about telling my mother I was a lesbian, and I instantly regretted doing so because, ya know, I'm not a lesbian. What if I'm not trans?

Bah. And the bloody therapist got a new job so he's leaving in a month. I'll still be crazy in a month. :/

[Nero]

I was extremely uncomfortable talking about this with anyone. Tried face to face therapy and ultimately went with an online therapist. Felt much more comfortable opening up that way.

[ativan]

This is why finding a therapist who works with LGBT people, especially Trans* is invaluable.
It might take some digging around on the Internet, but they are around.

My original therapist was a note taker. Didn't say much, just took notes.
Hated the guy. Hated going to therapy. I felt intimidated.
Finally, I just blurted out that I didn't like his style.
I also blurted out that I was uncomfortable talking about gender issues with him.
No problem, he said. I had a therapist who was qualified and an appointment in 1/2 hr.
Turns out, he really was good with Trans* people, but I didn't like him...

But I set my sights a little higher, and looked into a university Trans* program.
Turns out it is one of the best in the country, but that was just plain old luck.
But I also found, when they opened up, a new group of therapists who specialize in LGBT stuff.
So I'm covered by a Psychologist who works in a great Trans* program, and a therapist to work on other stuff.
But the important thing to me is to work on the other stuff from a Trans* point of view.
The Psychologist and the Trans* program are how I started on Low Dose HRT. They pretty much wrote the book.
Just the fact that I set the rules, I decided how it was going to work, made all the difference in the world.

Never forget that they are working for you. You pay them to help you.
You get to decide how this is going to work. Any therapist who is good will work this way with you.
They ask better questions, have more informed help or answers to your questions.

But truly the best thing is to be able to talk about anything about me I want to.
They get where it is coming from. They have a better point of reference.
I told them that I didn't believe in any testing and I wanted them to ask me the questions.
The reason is that those tests are not about you, they are about everyone.
Sometimes they ask me a question and I'll ask them, why that question?
What are you trying to get at? In what context are you asking?
I want to know what their line of thinking is, as much as they want to know mine.
I dig in on both my therapist and psychologist when I feel the need to.
They like my proactive approach, it helps them to understand how I think.

And that is what it is all about.
It's about You, not a group of people, not a text book, but You.
Ativan