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Historical revisionism - Am I making stuff up

Started by Rowan Rue, February 13, 2013, 11:22:53 PM

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Rowan Rue

Writing to my uncle I related the following

One of the first things I encountered [after coming out] was a certain sense of guilt that I might be re-writing my personal history to justify my claim of being trans and it has taken a while to realize that we are always re-writing our personal history to conform to our present notion of who we are, and frankly the last 15+ years, for me, has been a narrative that involved a very unhealthy amount of guilt and anger but no explicable reason to justify them.
Upon reflection, my attempts to explain why I felt so screwed up as being caused by my mother getting ill
(Brain tumor when I was five) are far less convincing than the idea that I might just be transgendered!
Oh, and the trans narrative, unlike the cancer trauma narrative, has the benefit of my actually believing it.  It has the benefit that it actually makes me feel emotionally whole for, well, the first time ever.


I think part of the reason for the sense of "maybe I'm just making sh#t up" and the "you're just doing this for attention" was the discrepancy between my personal experience and the "socially convenient in it's neatness" story of the kid who says they are the opposite gender when they're two and never deviates from this assertion. 
I unfortunately read up on HSTS v's ->-bleeped-<- theory and, between that and the frankly inconsistent feelings of dysphoria over the years, I began to mistrust my own memories.
In the end I think the truth is that everyone is constantly revising their own personal narrative to suit their current self image and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
In fact if you're not revising your own understanding of yourself in light of new and perhaps more accurate information, you're probably doing it wrong.
So I'm doing my best to say to hell with any sense of guilt I feel over "inconveniently" requesting that others re-write their personal histories to account for the fact that I was NEVER who they thought I was.
After all, we used to think the Earth was the flat center of the Universe.
Turns out we were wrong about that too.





My personal blog is [url=http
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Aleah

I get this feeling sometimes too.. trying to make sense of very confusing feelings for so long. I have to check myself sometimes because my desire to validate my feelings is so strong sometimes. For me it comes from a  place of guilt I think.. since my trans narrative is hardly normative and I placed so much shame and guilt on these feelings over the years that it's hard to shake that feeling.

Getting to a point now where I'm just going "the hell with how and why I got here, I'm here".. and I'm finding my memories of my feelings in a whole new light, I was much unhappier than I had believed after seeing that the grass can be greener. It's a bit disconcerting looking back and having a different view of your life than you did a few years ago, but I'm still coming to accept that I was wrong.. and that I'm finally seeing it clearly.
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kinz

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 13, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
In the end I think the truth is that everyone is constantly revising their own personal narrative to suit their current self image and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

yo some real talk right here!!!

in my own personal revision of my story i was a curious 16yo straight dude who invented his own True Trans Story on a weekend bender, because girl on girl is hot.  it is totally exaggerated but it fits my image and makes me feel good and empowered and stuff.  i think people are entitled to write their own histories especially when it governs how they're perceived by others.
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Elspeth

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 13, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
Upon reflection, my attempts to explain why I felt so screwed up as being caused by my mother getting ill (Brain tumor when I was five) are far less convincing than the idea that I might just be transgendered!

I want to respond to this whole post when I'm less exhausted, but what grabbed my attention at a deeply personal level was this. As a fairly late and delaying transitioner, a life-threatening illness for my mother, when I was in my teens (about age 16, but the chronology is a little blurry for me) is something that I have at least wondered about as a complicating factor, though not really an explanation for "being so messed up."

I have clear memories of at least wondering whether I was trans from a much earlier time, at age 10 at the latest, not counting the nature of early childhood friendships, as much as possible with girls my age, and barring that, with mostly feminine guys, also limited to my own age.

I can't speak for you of course, but the thought does cross my mind, did her illness and my distress at that time factor into why it took me as long as it did to come out? At some levels it would have been so much simpler, or at least it's tempting to thing so. Of course, my children would not and could not have existed, had I taken a different course. It's vanishingly unlikely that even if I had remained fertile or engaged in HRT, but not SRS, I would have had any chance of winding up with the mother of my children.

More later, I hope. Thanks for sharing!
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Rowan Rue

Quote from: Elspeth on February 13, 2013, 11:47:40 PM
I can't speak for you of course, but the thought does cross my mind, did her illness and my distress at that time factor into why it took me as long as it did to come out?

My earliest memory is riding the school bus when I was four and hoping I'd grow up to be like this girl called susan who was in charge of minding us very young kids on the bus.
A year later we were visiting family in Virginia when my mother was diagnosed, we all thought she was going to die and a month later my sister, who was two, and I flew back to England on our own to live with my grandmother while my father stayed in the states on a visa extension.  I ended up in a new school halfway through the school year and did not adjust terribly well. 
I became extremely shy and introverted and learned to bottle up my emotions. 
I'm pretty sure that had that not have happened I would have come out much much sooner.





My personal blog is [url=http
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Nero

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 13, 2013, 11:22:53 PM

I think part of the reason for the sense of "maybe I'm just making sh#t up" and the "you're just doing this for attention" was the discrepancy between my personal experience and the "socially convenient in it's neatness" story of the kid who says they are the opposite gender when they're two and never deviates from this assertion. 

<snip>

In the end I think the truth is that everyone is constantly revising their own personal narrative to suit their current self image and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.


Hi Rowan.
Interesting topic. Not sure it's ever really been discussed on here. When you talk about 'historical revisionism' are you remembering things that didn't happen or just making sense of the way you did act at the time? For instance, when I (or my mother) look back on my personality or things I did, it's pretty obvious I was a fairly normal boy. Not overly masculine or aggressive for a boy of that age, but came off that way for a girl of that time. You know, a boy like me probably wouldn't have been sent to a hospital...

As far as the 'early assertion' thing, I think that depends on a child's environment + temperament. A really shy child who endures severe punishment for any stray word is probably NOT going to be so adamant. I tried to get the situation across to my mother by explaining that I was 'Charlie Brown' and not 'Lucy'. LOL But I would never have had the balls to come out with 'I'm not a girl, I'm a boy.' My father would have killed me. I was whipped mercilessly for practically every word out of my mouth from about the age of 2. Plus, I was terrified of my own shadow until age 11. So... yeah. I hear stories of people as children insisting to anyone who would listen that they were really the opposite gender. I'm like wow, how'd you get the balls to do that? It just would have been unthinkable for me.

So, I don't put much stock in the assertion thing. It can certainly help trace gender dysphoria firmly for those with the balls to admit it at a young age. But not every kid felt free enough for that. The crossdressing and 'cross gender' play is a similar situation. A shy, abused little mtf girl may not have been brave enough to do those things. Or even one who wasn't abused, but just had a passive personality. Maybe a different abused little girl would have had the ovaries. It takes a brave kid to go against the grain in the best of situations. No kid is the same. And all are pretty susceptible to their environment.

I WISH I weren't so honest with myself about my past. If I could do revisionist history, I'd go back and make myself the baddest, toughest boy who ever lived.  :laugh: I certainly came off really badass as a kid according to old friends, my mom, etc. But looking back, if you put a boy in my place, not so badass. Average boy at best. (Think this is part of my sudden masculinity crisis after transition)

The idea of 'rewriting personal histories' is intriguing. I wish I weren't so painfully honest with myself (and everyone else).
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Elspeth

#6
Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 14, 2013, 12:25:39 AM
My earliest memory is riding the school bus when I was four and hoping I'd grow up to be like this girl called susan who was in charge of minding us very young kids on the bus.
... 
I'm pretty sure that had that not have happened I would have come out much much sooner.

Ah, for me, my mom's illness came later, in my teens. It was fairly clear, given my family's religion, and the kind of rural communities we lived in for so much of that time (and despite being born in Salt Lake City, and spending lots of time with relatives there, some of them more educated, but still very Mormon), that insisting I was a girl was not likely to lead anywhere. I knew who I was early, as much as I could, at least, at  each particular age and stage of development.

I just felt that I could predict fairly well that the response was not likely to be a good one. I also spent most of my time in the library, and a lot of it was spent reading the fairly small collection of medical books, which, of course, since I was reading them in the late 60s and early 70s, contained very little on gender dysphoria, and mostly seemed to suggest to me (since most seemed to imply or assume that all transwomen were straight) that maybe I was something else, apart from the fact that what I was feeling also did not fit with the thinking at the time about fetishes or any other possible explanations.

When my mom became ill, with pelvic inflammatory disease due to an IUD (one that was recalled soon thereafter, because of that and other risks) I was in my mid-teens, and in many ways became substitute mom in our household, becoming the main one responsible for most of the household chores, menu planning, cooking, laundry and watching over my siblings, but there was still a certain sense of guilty thinking -- did my desires and inclinations bring this on? She was also in a hospital, and later in recovery, far from home, though not across an ocean, just about 8 hours of driving over mostly empty desert, while school and the rest of life kept moving onward.

Like you, though, the feelings were there before the traumatic event. If anything, this might go to explain a little of why, when I felt more attracted to but also more in tune with women, I did eventually managed to meet one who I more or less fooled myself into thinking would at least give me the role I desired, if not necessarily the body.

I think I've tried not to fabricate a history, but there are at least some parts that I do tend to shorthand for convenience, or because some of the details seem mostly irrelevant, but also, probably, a bit because describing them in any depth does trigger unhappy memories and internal turmoil that I mostly realize is imagined or is perhaps an overly mystical form of data mining and pattern matching, but in that, it's not unlike the sorts of pattern matching that are very common in Mormon culture, and often openly expressed to other Mormons... things about how, through prayer and faith, God saw fit to make some wonderful thing happen for the individual expressing a testimony. Not that my mother's illness was any kind of wonderful thing.

Just saying, the temptation to fit one's narrative into something where there's a causal link between things that happened beyond our control, and our own internal puzzling, questioning, or even our feelings of certain identity are probably not limited to transness?

I do think, if the trauma had been much earlier, with the impact you describe, that definitely would have probably put me a lot more in limbo, when coming later, when I was a bit more able to at least consider that her illness and my feminine identity and "role seeking" were unrelated except by coincidence, enabled me to at least make a kind of peace with myself, and solidify my understanding that trying to "man up" was only going to lead to turmoil, unhappiness and no benefit to others or myself.

Another bit here, which in some ways developed out of that illness, was mom and my maternal grandmother's involvement in feminism (grandma was one of the main political activists and leaders in feminist politics in Utah or at least one of those working most within the political system, and particularly advocating the (eventually failed) passage of the ERA, in her position as one of a small number of state legislators and as a leader in Utah's relatively small, non-confrontational feminist community at the time).  That part, and some of the common thinking in the 70s about gender and roles was also part of why I felt obligated, at least for quite some time, to try to take on my desired roles, while remaining apparently male, albeit androgynous from my teens onward, aside from the limitations in doing androgyny while enlisted in the Army.

To come back to revisionism -- I think many of us tend to have to come up with a very brief summary of our history, and given the brevity, there's alway likely to be some self-questioning about whether we are being entirely truthful -- we're not, no one is, and no one can be entirely truthful when describing a lifetime or at least a span of decades' experience in a single short narrative. And my experience with a therapist who seemed to have his own personal reasons for mishearing me, especially when I would go into the story in depth, also suggests that we often deduce that there are some very good and practical reasons for spinning the story in certain ways, especially when we are talking to anyone still devoted to shoehorning those narratives to fit a pattern that was originally based on a very small set of samples, from a time very different from the present.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 14, 2013, 12:46:59 AM
Well I think a lot of people edit their past narrative to seem more genuine... I guess that's ok if it's what makes you happy, though I think it would be weird to realize you're actually consciously trying to change your personality to something it wasn't.  At least when you're changing it to something that shouldn't be superior to the alternative...

I'd like to read your response to my follow-up, posted a few minutes before reading this post.

In particular, why you think someone might be motivated to do this? For me I tend to assume that when we do fabricate, it's because we've read some limited part of the medical literature, and got the impression that part of negotiating with therapists and others to get to somewhere that is less dysphoric might be easier, the more clearly we could fit ourselves to a typical pattern.

I would agree that doing so winds up not being a good idea, especially if we wind up persuading ourselves that things we fabricated were in fact true, but this tendency also seems to me to be a fairly reasonable motivation for what often seems like it might be a fairly common experience in some ways, granted, a common experience that contains probably infinite variations.

But reading your post, on reflection, it seems possible, at least, to draw an inference that you think that not matching a particular narrative is a possible sign that someone is not trans, or at least not as clearly trans, as someone who fits the stereotype, or who "fits" the abnormal psych textbook's description of  a "classic" case considerably better.

Motives could also just be as simple as the practical ones, of not wanting to spend time telling an entire life story, when it's not relevant, and is probably going to seem self-centered or annoyingly verbose (something I'm frequently "guilty" of, myself).
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 14, 2013, 06:04:16 AM
I WISH I weren't so honest with myself about my past. If I could do revisionist history, I'd go back and make myself the baddest, toughest boy who ever lived.  :laugh: I certainly came off really badass as a kid according to old friends, my mom, etc. But looking back, if you put a boy in my place, not so badass. Average boy at best. (Think this is part of my sudden masculinity crisis after transition)

You've pinpointed, at least for me, why I don't find fault with anyone who gives me reason to wonder whether they possess this "skill" for restructuring their past, since I can only imagine that, if they are doing it, they are doing it to make their life easier, and their memories less disabling.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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spacial

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 13, 2013, 11:22:53 PM

In the end I think the truth is that everyone is constantly revising their own personal narrative to suit their current self image and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
In fact if you're not revising your own understanding of yourself in light of new and perhaps more accurate information, you're probably doing it wrong.

I completely agree and understand that point.

I think we each try to portray what we are saying in essentially simplistic terms. But life isn't simple. There are aspects which we leave out, others which we don't appreciate at the time.

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Lesley_Roberta

Hindsight is called 20/20 for a reason.

Sometimes we are not re writing, sometimes we are actually correcting.

But you can often learn from the original inaccuracies too.

History is my expertise. I might suck at remembering my own past, but I am an expert in the past generally speaking. I have read eye witness accounts of famous moments in time and they are factually mangled accounts. Just because you were there doesn't mean you say the whole picture or had all the facts. But, you will have experienced it, and those experiences do say a lot of what it was like to be there.

You need those experiences even when they were wrong. You learn from the inaccuracies.

I saw life through the eyes of a person growing up as a youth in the 60s being raised by parents that were cliche examples of Ward and June Cleaver. It affected me.

But as I look back on my own life, I do see a lot of things with a better view now than when I was actually living them.
I haven't revised my life, I just see it better now.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Emily Aster

I spent a lot of years analyzing my memories and getting to a point where I wondered if they were even real or if it was just something I made up and kept telling myself enough that they became memories. Fortunately for me, I also realized that my memories have nothing to do with my present and it doesn't matter if they're real or not. What matters is that I need to be a woman. Even the why isn't important.
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ford

Interesting topic that resonates with me too. I too didn't have the usual narrative. When I was a kid my parents pretty much treated me like a boy (dressed me like one etc) so I never really felt conflicted. From puberty on I had really confusing feelings that I ascribed to depression or just some form of 'being bad at dealing with life.' My mom died of cancer when I was 19, so then that was convenient to use as a scapegoat, but deep down I know that my feelings were with me before that.

I don't look at it so much as rewriting. For me it's going back, remember things that did indeed happen, and looking at them from a different point of view; applying new meaning now that I have a new perspective as to what might have been the root cause. And while I can never really know if it's true, I does help me explain myself (to myself as well as others).

For example, I used to have a big problem with self-harm while I was in college. I was secretive about it, but at one point a roommate discovered my little habit and dragged me to the school counselor. Attempting to explain myself, I told the counselor that I was depressed because of my mom, even though I had started cutting well before she even got sick. I had no clue WHY I was doing it at the time, but now I can go back and place a different meaning on it. I was harming because those awful feelings I was trying to deaden were dysphoria-related. Clear as day no, right?

I have the guilt thing going on too, in a big way. My therapist innocently asked me why I had waited so long (6 years of marriage) to tell my husband, and I broke down. Because I didn't know what was wrong with me (the truth), but that sounds so lame. Based on the common narrative that floats around these days, I feel like everyone I've told is thinking 'how could you not have known your were 'trapped in the wrong body' until now?'

So I dip into the past to try to explain it...
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Elspeth

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 14, 2013, 08:41:01 AM
History is my expertise. I might suck at remembering my own past, but I am an expert in the past generally speaking. I have read eye witness accounts of famous moments in time and they are factually mangled accounts.

I might want to ask you for your response to a play I've been writing (off and on) for many years. It centers on the historical figures, St. Jerome and the woman I consider his sort of "sugar momma", St. Paula.

Paula was a wealthy Roman widow, and following some ambiguously recorded scandal in Rome, one that may have included accusations that he was crossdressing for morning mass or something, though those accounts don't actually show up in documents until perhaps a few centuries after Jerome's death.  What is certain is that they left Rome, along with Paula's daughter, to set up a convent in Bethlehem, where Jerome continued, and probably did the bulk of his scriptural translation work, which is instrumental in how Christian scripture came to be translated and interpreted for centuries.

What you're saying about historical inaccuracy and witness bias, etc. is a big part of the piece.

Please do let me know if you're interested in reading and reacting to it at some point, now or in the future. Warning: it remains fairly unsatisfying to me at this point, since it's a play of ideas, and at risk of not always being very dramatic or consistent in how the conflicts play out, though in some places I may have made it overly dramatic. Still trying to find a way to balance out that part, in any case.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Rowan Rue

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 14, 2013, 06:04:16 AM
Hi Rowan.
Interesting topic. Not sure it's ever really been discussed on here. When you talk about 'historical revisionism' are you remembering things that didn't happen or just making sense of the way you did act at the time?
Definitely the latter, or rather , I hope that it's the latter.
The conversation I'd been having with my uncle (the most recent person I've come out to) brought up these thoughts again. 
He lost a couple of close friends unexpectedly before christmas and while he's very supportive of my transition, he did confess that his initial reaction had been "Why do people have to keep changing?!"
It's a very fair response and I often find myself somewhat at odds with my families attachment to their memories of me as a boy.
To the extent that I'm requiring them to re-write their memories of me, I feel it's fair to ask myself whether I'm being honest in my recollections.
Aslo the desire to confirm to some external narrative of what being Trans is, having something to point to and say "See, I really am trans, this proves it"  as if my own lived experience isn't real enough.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 14, 2013, 08:41:01 AM
Hindsight is called 20/20 for a reason.

Sometimes we are not re writing, sometimes we are actually correcting.

But you can often learn from the original inaccuracies too.

....

I absolutely agree and this view is why i'm pretty comfortable with how I see myself (at least internally haha).  Even where I'm wrong, there's always the opportunity to learn and adjust down the road.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 14, 2013, 07:36:27 AM
...
Just saying, the temptation to fit one's narrative into something where there's a causal link between things that happened beyond our control, and our own internal puzzling, questioning, or even our feelings of certain identity are probably not limited to transness?

I do think, if the trauma had been much earlier, with the impact you describe, that definitely would have probably put me a lot more in limbo, when coming later, when I was a bit more able to at least consider that her illness and my feminine identity and "role seeking" were unrelated except by coincidence, ...

A lot of psychiatry depends on this going back and finding a causal relationship to make sense of, and expunge ones problems.  I was very depressed/had severe social anxiety at various points through my life and whenever I sought therapy it became very easy for the therapist to conclude that it must be related to my mother getting ill.
I had an explanation provided by a reputable professional and so that was that.
The more I think about it the stranger this notion is because, really, most people who had something bad happen to them tend to shrug it off and treat it like it was no big deal (PTSD being the big difference, but the causes are totally different).
I think if at any point I had been really seriously asked what was bothering me right there and then?  Why did I feel unhappy NOW?  I probably would have recognized that it was the dysphoria, because that was always there, in the present, upsetting me right then.
It really is a very poorly developed discipline in a lot of ways.





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Lesley_Roberta

Elspeth, I'd be ok helping in my small fashion I suppose.

St Jerome is sort of easy to find content on considering how much he is known to have written on.

Had a momentary reaction when I saw St Jerome, I was born near there (Quebec), it was my fathers home.

I might be of greater value as a writing critique though, no great writer, but I consider it one of my talents.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Elspeth

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on February 14, 2013, 01:24:36 PM
St Jerome is sort of easy to find content on considering how much he is known to have written on.

Easy to find content on, though much of it (particularly primary sources from Jerome's own times) came  from his subjective perspective. Also, hard to confirm which material is true, and what is just rumor or innuendo, spurred by internal church politics or other factors. I consulted a fair number of scholars on the historical background for about a year before I started actually writing, and I've actually forgotten some of the details since the historical data was really an important gap in my knowledge base.  I would be looking more for fresh perspectives and impressions of the story, as well as reactions from those interested in, and who believe they are well versed in history, and philosophy of history as well as other meta-subjects.

I'm actually, at least personally, far more interested in Paula and her daughter, Eustochium Julia. There's also an early friend of Jerome's (named Bonosus) who is also a major character, plus four contemporary characters from the present who are largely fictional, but might be seen as based on certain individuals in academia and public debate.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Rowan Rue






My personal blog is [url=http
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Adam (birkin)

I think it happens without us intending to.

Actually, a weird one happened to me the other day. I was thinking back to my job at a natural foods store, and how we had a journal because there was usually only one person in at the time so we had to leave notes for the boss and she'd leave notes for us. Anyway, her notes were always really recognizable...scribble our name, quick request, then a smiley face and "Bernie." Lol. Anyhoo I wasn't out and going by Caleb at that job, didn't even know I wanted the name Caleb, but I have a visual memory, and I had an image of the journal in my mind with "Caleb, meat order is coming in today. :) Bernie."

It was really,, really odd.
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Rowan Rue

The speed with which I became comfortable with my new name, once I finally made my decision, actually surprised me.  Within a week I was responding completely automatically to Rowan and when people slip up and used my old name I often don't even recognize it.  I think I've done quite an effective mental re-write there.  I was honestly surprised when I read my old name on my debit card the other day.  Thought I had the wrong one for a second o.0





My personal blog is [url=http
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