sexism

[krakenshay]

i was on twitter the other day and someone was like why is it that trans guys are misogynists and sexist. while i personally feel that is an unfair generalization, since cis women can also be misogynists and sexist. i think because of us being socialized female we are expected to be magically free from these traits but i think since we grew up in the same society as everyone there shouldnt be different expectations. anyway, i guess i am interested on hearing other guys views on this. do you harbour such views, do you think ftms should especially be anti misogyny and sexism especially because of their past and as such should they be criticized more heavily than say cis/trans women who willingly perpetuate these sterotypes?

i hope my question is clear

[Adam (birkin)]

Personally, I am a lot more sensitive to sexism. I think, at least for me, being male but stuck being seen as female due to my body made me hyper aware to the differences between how men and women are treated. I learned that people don't give a hoot how you identify - if they see a woman, if they assume you were born with a vagina, ovaries, they will treat you differently, often in the absence of any intention to do so.

And it's BS. I should be treated exactly the same regardless of my sex, or how my sex is perceived. Flat out.

[aleon515]

I'm sure there IS sexism in transguys but to be honest haven't seen any personally.

--Jay

[Edge]

I've seen sexism from both males and females towards both males and females. I think it's bull crap either way. Not because I was born looking like a girl, but because I was raised to think it's bull crap.

[AscendantDevon]

I dunno, I haven't seen too much of that. I for one grew up in a pretty strong feminist household, and consider myself a feminist. So many of the injustices in the world are based in this horrible social/internalized misogyny that hurts not only females, but also males of a 'beta' status. No one can say that they are unaffected by sexism. : /   

[DriftingCrow]

I completely agree with Caleb. There's a lot of things that I notice because I am so aware of gender in everyday life from being trans, so it's kind of often that I think "would that have guy have said that if he saw me as male?" or "would that guy at autozone have been so willing to help me change my wiperblades if he saw me as a dude?" I also know that because I was socialized female that I probably look up to certain female figures more than some men would (Hilary Clinton is like an idol for me).

I think any perceived bits of sexism from cis-females might be because I just don't understand women, because I am not a woman. Maybe some would see me as sexist because I don't have a ton of female friends and I don't actively seek female friends since I don't feel that type of bonding with women (besides the few female friends I do have) that I do with men.

Although in Constitutional Law, our professor had us take this implicit attitude test for gender-career and according to the results I am slightly sexist, it showed I thought women were better childrearers (though I don't always think that the results were entirely accurate, you kind of get into the grove of it). https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html

[Nero]

Honestly, I'm kind of oblivious to sexism.
I wouldn't call myself sexist (I do have a mother and two sisters after all). But I've been guilty of having views which could be considered sexist by some. I'm deeply disturbed by being frisked by female cops so yeah...

Mostly, I just try to never admit what I think in places where it won't be accepted. lol
I actually think if anything, being trans would have made me more likely to be sexist. Simply because I was so cut off, excluded, and daily humiliated by females. I like women. They make awesome friends (well mtfs do anyway; haven't really had cis female friends).
I don't know. I have a really hard time relating to or empathizing with females. I simply haven't known any well outside of my mother. So...

The only time I ever noticed sexism was when it was directed at me as a guy when I was offered a job and then the guy rescinded saying his wife had told him a woman would be better in the position. He had actually chosen me over the female candidate before his wife stepped in. Then he hired the woman instead after already hiring me. No joke.

Of course, I know sexism and misogyny are real things. I'm just saying I don't think I personally am more or less likely to notice or engage in sexism than any other guy. It probably does have something to do with my experiences and lack thereof.

[AscendantDevon]

I actually think if anything, being trans would have made me more likely to be sexist. Simply because I was so cut off, excluded, and daily humiliated by females. I like women. They make awesome friends (well mtfs do anyway; haven't really had cis female friends).

I'm not sure if that is even considered sexism? : P Who you make friends with doesn't really have to do with how you feel about equality.

To me, being sexist is feeling like you are owed things from society or women, just by being male. And I would say that most trans guys, having been forced to live life as females, would generally not have this ingrained feeling of superiority. Like feeling as though women owe it to you to look good, or that femininity is inherently weak, or contributing to rape culture through victim blaming and slurs.

Pretty sure most trans people have had to go through a lot of prejudice and societal pressures, it just doesn't make sense to me that trans men would be overly sexist, having to live through plenty of inequality themselves.

[Nero]

To me, being sexist is feeling like you are owed things from society or women, just by being male. And I would say that most trans guys, having been forced to live life as females, would generally not have this ingrained feeling of superiority. Like feeling as though women owe it to you to look good, or that femininity is inherently weak, or contributing to rape culture through victim blaming and slurs.

Oh. Well, I certainly don't feel any of that.

[AscendantDevon]

Hehe, didn't think you did. People like to throw the word 'sexism' around for a lot, for stuff that doesn't really encompass how serious an issue it is.

For some reason I've accidentally become waaaay more educated on the topic recently, sorry for mutinying this thread and making it all serious business.   

[Darrin Scott]

I'm not sure if that is even considered sexism? : P Who you make friends with doesn't really have to do with how you feel about equality.

To me, being sexist is feeling like you are owed things from society or women, just by being male. And I would say that most trans guys, having been forced to live life as females, would generally not have this ingrained feeling of superiority. Like feeling as though women owe it to you to look good, or that femininity is inherently weak, or contributing to rape culture through victim blaming and slurs.

Pretty sure most trans people have had to go through a lot of prejudice and societal pressures, it just doesn't make sense to me that trans men would be overly sexist, having to live through plenty of inequality themselves.

You'd be surprised.

[Proton]

Enough repetition can make us internalize these ideas, even if we objectively know they are wrong.

Being perceived as female and dealing with prejudice helped me understand the problematic aspects of it, but it definitely didn't make me forget all the misogyny I was taught from society.

[Liminal Stranger]

In jest, my friends and I say sexist things to one another; nothing terrible, just a bit of joking around. But this one scrawny kid kept annoying me by offering to carry my books, and then he got annoyed when I repeatedly declined, as if it were some kind of right of his to prove stronger than me. Dude, I can lift you over my head and break you in half. A 5-pound book is nothing 

But yeah, I personally can't stand the difference in treatment. A person identifying as male really doesn't worry about every set of eyes, male and female, scrutinizing them from what I've observed.

[Kreuzfidel]

I've also not seen any "misogyny" or "sexism" from trans guys.  What I HAVE seen however, occasionally, are some extremist FTMs and genderqueer people accusing other FTMs of misogynistic attitudes for comments they have made that are usually either exaggerated or taken out of context.  Within some circles, these accusative individuals will nitpick and latch onto anything and everything said and twist it into a "misogynistic comment".

[spacerace]

I think I was actually a bit sexist *before* because I hated anything to do with being female so much.  It is resolved now though that I've worked through the cause  of such feelings.

I've also not seen any "misogyny" or "sexism" from trans guys.  What I HAVE seen however, occasionally, are some extremist FTMs and genderqueer people accusing other FTMs of misogynistic attitudes for comments they have made that are usually either exaggerated or taken out of context.  Within some circles, these accusative individuals will nitpick and latch onto anything and everything said and twist it into a "misogynistic comment".

The balance is what is important. I was guilty of the nitpicking for bit as a whiplash to how I felt before, so I think this behavior in some is just people trying to come to terms with what it means to be a feminist FTM that rejected being female. As in, they don't want to be seen as saying their transition had anything to do with being sexist.

Also - I hesitate to even bring it up, but didn't Chaz Bono get grief for coming across as misogynistic on talk shows when he decided to be the the celebrity  and representative for being trans or whatever? Maybe that is where some of this feeling comes from, as unfortunately that stuff got a lot of press. I should add that visibility is important and he was brave for doing it, so I am not trying to hate on him too much.

[krakenshay]

yeah Chaz Bono was given a lot of smack for being sexist/misogynist. I guess it differs, i am actively aware of sexist situations and try not to but i think i harbour some in certain situations where i think a guy is more suited or better at something by virtue of them being a guy. good to hear from you guys though. i think also being socialzed female and being made to feel small or delicate for such a long time may have something to do with this

[Kaelin]

i personally feel that is an unfair generalization

This is really all that should have to be said.  The commonality within a group ends at its definition, demonstrable corollaries, and coincidences on extremely rare occasions.  There are FtMs who are sexist, but there are also sexist MtFs, sexist cis-women, and sexism cis-men.  No group is "safe" (or wholly bad for that matter -- I've seen good and bad examples of each), and so it is incumbent on people to judge others by their character as opposed to their identity.  To judge whole groups and "keep score" is the sort of thing that typically leads to stereotyping, and focusing one's effort in that way just perpetuates the problem.