Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Trans and mental illness (possible trigger warning)

Started by Simon, February 25, 2013, 12:39:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elspeth

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 25, 2013, 08:00:22 PM
That's not really where the division gets made. There are brain conditions, which are physiological. And mental conditions, which are psychological.

In which case, if there is ever a concensus that transgendered identities have a structural cause in the brain, I suppose we can expect to get taken out of the DSM?  Seems to me we might be a decade or less away from having such a concensus but maybe I'm being too much of an optimist?
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
  •  

Trixie

Quote from: Elspeth on February 27, 2013, 05:19:03 PM
In which case, if there is ever a concensus that transgendered identities have a structural cause in the brain, I suppose we can expect to get taken out of the DSM?  Seems to me we might be a decade or less away from having such a concensus but maybe I'm being too much of an optimist?

My main worry over that is whether or not someone could do a brain scan of me and reveal that I "should" be a guy. :/
  •  

insideontheoutside

Quote from: AlexD on February 26, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
Let me see if I understand you correctly... you believe that doctor-prescribed drugs don't correct chemical imbalances, but that herbalist-prescribed drugs do correct chemical imbalances, and therefore drugs are bad? Huh? Why do you think that is? Because of your own personal experiences and a handful of anecdotes? Do you really think that the experiences of, what, five, ten people is superior to a double-blind clinical trial on hundreds of patients? Or that some guy who once read a book on herbs knows better than an entire community of professional scientists who devote their lives to carefully studying the effects of chemicals on the human body?

There is no such thing as "alternative medicine": there is only stuff that works, and bull->-bleeped-<-. I'm sorry that you and your friends have had poor experiences with medication, but please, don't fall into the trap of thinking that "alternative" therapy works just because you got lucky with it, or that real medicine is bad because it has flaws.

I don't know who this "some guy who once read a book on herbs" is that you speak of. Chinese herbalists go through as much, or more schooling, in legitimate colleges, as westernized medical doctors. In fact, most have devoted their entire lives to their field. One of the Chinese doctors I used to go to started apprenticing with his grandfather when he was 6 and he still did 10 years of schooling (in China and the U.S.) to get his degrees and then licenses to practice Chinese medicine (herbs and acupuncture) in the U.S.. So your statement is actually kind of flippant and frankly misinformed to me.

Thousands of years of herbal medicine (and let us not forget that many pharmaceutical drugs are formulated off of natural substances) actually does validate, to me, that a number of these "alternatives" work (beyond just my personal and anecdotal experiences). So do all the double blind studies that have actually been conducted on herbs (and there have been). If you believe all that's bulls*it, that's your opinion. It's funny to me though that you think "real medicine" only comes from western M.D.s and scientists. A few others have already pointed out that doctors and scientists have been wrong over the years. But yeah, those thousands of years that humans all over the earth have been using herbs is all make believe. That's the sort of thing pharmaceutical scientists use as a basis to formulate chemical drugs (the validity that certain herbs and plants have been used for one thing or another – then they create the chemical equivalent in order to patent and sell it).

But I can freely admit there is a place for pharmaceuticals in the world. If I had a severe infection, I'd want some antibiotics. Legit psychotic illnesses are best treated by pharmaceuticals, etc. Some people need heart medication or diabetes medication or a myriad of other things in order to keep living. No one is saying that isn't true. I did mention I had what some may consider an unpopular opinion. I also was pretty careful not to say "ALL" at any point. I don't trust most doctors, I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry as a whole ... but you know what, I'm free to do so. Just like you're free to believe that's the only stuff that's "real". 
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
  •  

AlexD

#63
It's pretty simple. Scientists test to see what work, and only use the stuff that works, and are contantly reviewing established theories to root out mistakes and correct them. "Traditional" and "alternative" practioners just use whatever they think sounds like a good idea, and if it happens to work, that's a bonus; if it doesn't work, oh well, let's just try the same thing again and hope it works this time. I don't doubt that the majority of them genuinely believe their stuff works, genuinely want to help others get better, and have genuinely stumbled upon some effective treatments -- but their approach is still dangerous.

And I never said you weren't free to believe what you want. Of course you are. But I'm also allowed to disagree. :3
  •  

DriftingCrow

Quote from: AlexD on February 28, 2013, 10:14:12 AM
It's pretty simple. Scientists test to see what work, and only use the stuff that works, and are contantly reviewing established theories to root out mistakes and correct them. "Traditional" and "alternative" practioners just use whatever they think sounds like a good idea, and if it happens to work, that's a bonus; if it doesn't work, oh well, let's just try the same thing again and hope it works this time. I don't doubt that the majority of them genuinely believe their stuff works, genuinely want to help others get better, and have genuinely stumbled upon some effective treatments -- but their approach is still dangerous.

And I never said you weren't free to believe what you want. Of course you are. But I'm also allowed to disagree. :3

I think it depends on the community, sure there's a lot of crazy people out there who go into alternative "medicice" to make a quick buck. But, there's others who truly believe their stuff works and are successful at it. For example, (I wish I could find the article, but alas, it's long lost in the BBC World Service archives) an American nurse was doing some volunteer work in South America, she was training midwives down there, but while she was down there, she learned about some midwives up in the mountains of whatever country she was in. While she was there, she visited these midwives and learned all sorts of amazing techniques to deliever safely babies who would normaly require a c-section here in the US using ancient techniques. Now, back in the US, she tried to show others these techniques, but doctors just ignore it and still give c-sections, no one has tried to do any studies. The US, being one of the richest countries in the world, has one of the highest birth death rates out of any Western nation, which is really freakin' crazy. Though these ancient techniques she learned are probably considered "alternative medicine" we're not giving it a second look and instead still cut women open thinking it's the best way to deliever whenever something isn't "normal" and have one of the highest infant mortality rates.

Science in itself is a beautiful thing which I highly respect, though (now I am going to sound like our crazy banned blogger with her male medical machine comments and other anti-medical establishment tangents  :D ) medicine and science isn't genuine when politics and money get involved. Pharmaceutical companies invest up to $1billion and 10-15 years into developing and testing drugs, some of which fail and never even are bothered with FDA testing, etc, and it's all lost money for them, so when drugs do come out and are marketed, the companies have a vested interest in keeping them out there so they can make their wages and fund other studies for new blockbuster drugs. To protect this vested interest, these same companies will buy patents from other drug makers who are smaller and not as well funded, in order to prevent other competition to their blockbuster drugs, those patents just sit there and their designs which could be for a brilliantly helpful drug just sit there. I think this is wrong, and isn't in the true spirit of science and progress, yet no one, even if they have the money to invest in the making of the drug, can use those patents. I also think it's wrong when these big drug companies actively bribe doctors by giving them exotic trips to "medical confrences" in Hawaii, payments, etc. Luckily, I wasn't the only person to be disturbed by this, and Congress actually got together and made regulations in order to make these relationships more transparent. There's also a huge medical lobby that actively keeps other parts of the medical industry from being recognized in order to protect their best interests, their Board of Directors are just like those in any other company who are practicing their fiduciary duties and actively seek to bring in the most amounts of favorable income and investment for their shareholders or other constituents, so their first priority isn't about the wonders of science or the desire to help people. Individual scientists who work for the companies probably have the interest of the people at heart, and truly want to cure diseases and make the world a better place, but unfortunately human nature within government and corporatations can get in the way.

While science does do tests to see what works, not everything is the best out there and some (not all) of it is involved in shady business practices that goes against what some people consider to be moral; and not all alternative medicine is untested (like chiropractors, massage therapists, meditation) or done by crazy people. While you might think me and Inside are just some hippies who shop at Wholefoods after driving a SUV who can't see the light and are blindly following sideshow freaks, you also should recognize that not all alternative medicine practicioners just do what they think sounds good and doesn't care about their patients. Many authentic alternative therapies have been examine by studies (like Tufts University's pain management clinic has done studies on Chinese therapies and their result that I've read about hasn't proven these therapies as ineffective or fraudulent), and "real" doctors even refer patients to alternative therapies (all of my clients as work who've been involved in car accidents had real doctors refer them to acupuncture, massage therapy, and/or chiropractors which are all within the alt. medicine umbrella). The ones who are dangerous are people who are practicing something that doesn't have a 1,000 or so year tradition, or who hasn't been trained by someone who's practiced the tradition; news stories like that woman who injected someone with urine as a therapy isn't the norm but people like her are scary and dangerous. If something has been around for 1,000 years and has been 100% or even let's say 60% ineffective probably wouldn't have stuck around for such a long time, there has to be something about those traditions that are doing something right.

Agree to disagree, I'll shut up now. There's so much we could go back and forth on, only a 20+ page paper will accurately reflect my views, so I won't bore you anymore.  ;D
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
  •  

DriftingCrow

Wow I must've missed something then, real life distracted me  :D

I hope it want anything too bad, I thought everything was in light spirits
ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
  •  

Elspeth

Quote from: Trixie on February 27, 2013, 06:32:48 PM
My main worry over that is whether or not someone could do a brain scan of me and reveal that I "should" be a guy. :/

Is this a serious concern, or was this just an off-hand comment? I ask, only because I don't want to perseverate with a meditation on what the advantages would be (as well as the legit concerns) should we ever be at a point where there were an objective test available. Keep in mind as with anything medical, that there will still be a risk of false negative and false positive tests, and that detecting brain differences may well turn out to be only a significant part of the whole story.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
  •  

Trixie

Quote from: Elspeth on February 28, 2013, 03:54:28 PM
Is this a serious concern, or was this just an off-hand comment? I ask, only because I don't want to perseverate with a meditation on what the advantages would be (as well as the legit concerns) should we ever be at a point where there were an objective test available. Keep in mind as with anything medical, that there will still be a risk of false negative and false positive tests, and that detecting brain differences may well turn out to be only a significant part of the whole story.

It's a serious concern for me, at least. Less so now than in the past where it was a consuming fear of mine. I'm just not sure I'm okay with the idea of somebody being able to "test" me and tell me what my gender identity should be.

I fear it could lead some people to be in basically the same situation as now - told by society to be a gender they don't want to be, but this time because of the results of tests rather than what the doctor saw when they were born.

I am interested in your thoughts on the subject, but I understand if you don't wish to comment further.
  •  

Jamie D

Okay, folks, I am unlocking this topic, with a proviso.

When the OP notes in the title, "Trigger Warning," we need to be aware that the subject matter could cause problems for some of the membership.  Sometimes, these topics are not for the faint-of-heart or the immature.

We had one member have a melt down in the topic and quit.  I don't want to see that happen again.
  •  

Chaos

At birth there was an accident that took place and caused me to have a sever learning disability *aka very slow learner* the right side of my body was paralyzed for a week from how much oxygen my brain had lost and thus caused me to lose some of its ability.This means i take 30x longer to learn things,i get frustrated easy.in a nut shell i have very slow processing and understanding when it comes to learning,tho oddly,learn very fast when it comes to wisdom and pain,life experiences.This and along with the below is why i am on SSI disability.
I have major depressive disorder
Agoraphobia
Sever anxiety which has morphed from panic attacks to rage attacks *aka instead of running away,i have gained a sense of fighting back*
OCD *tho this is hard to explain and one i do not wish to go into.it is not as sever for me as it seems*
Was told i *might* be Bipolar but i was never tested to make sure.
I do have a replay or repeat disorder *cant remember or find the correct term atm* it is when every bad event or people or well anything,is on repeat within your mind,trying to find solutions,asking why and so on.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
  •  

Elspeth

Quote from: Jamie D on March 01, 2013, 01:47:11 PM
Okay, folks, I am unlocking this topic, with a proviso.

When the OP notes in the title, "Trigger Warning," we need to be aware that the subject matter could cause problems for some of the membership.  Sometimes, these topics are not for the faint-of-heart or the immature.

We had one member have a melt down in the topic and quit.  I don't want to see that happen again.

Thank you, Jamie, for clarifying the situation. I could only see hints of the meltdown (the post alluded to had already been removed before I could read it or have a sense of what had transpired) and was hesitant to respond to Trixie further while I was unsure of the situation.

Will take all due precautions once I have time and mental clarity to continue myself.  I'm sure this thread is triggering a few things for me too.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
  •  

Liminal Stranger

Wow, I feel terrible now going back and seeing that gradual meltdown unfold. I guess this is why a trigger warning should never go ignored.

Didn't mention this before because it's not a mental illness IMO, but I have some massive sensory issues. Some of them are downright awful, others amazing in ways I can't explain. It's likely connected to what they've diagnosed as a relatively mild case of cerebral palsy; while coordination is a nightmare and my tight tendons and spasticness made the occupational therapist ask if I had been the victim of a stroke, my somewhat unique long-term memory, cross-linked senses, and raw capacity of my brain to produce output lead me to believe that it compensates for the physical disabilities. That tends to make it even more frustrating to be limited by my body, especially since speech decides not to work at times so I can't even communicate my anger because it deteriorates into me screaming nonsensical gibberish. My brain is well aware of my body's limitations, but it's annoying to have something that can generate and maintain a complex universe down to the molecule and retain memories of dreams within dreams be confined when it comes to sharing its power.

I'm also subject to the occasional moment of derp, but aren't we all?





"And if you feel that you can't go on, in the light you will find the road"
- In the Light, Led Zeppelin
  •  

BunnyBee

The line that separates the physiological and psycholgical aspects of our brains is measured and drawn according to the extent of our (humanity's) understanding, or lack therof, of brain function.  I honestly believe that in time we will see that distinction as being more and more semantic and probably more and more things will be removed from the DSM as we come to understand things like neuro-science better.  I think if mental illness carries a stigma it's because, by definition, we don't understand it very well and you know how some people feel about the mysterious..  We don't understand it, so probably it's monsters...
  •