Identity: A dilemma with a fundamental question

[kloey]

Hello all,
Let me first quickly express how happy I am to have found this website. It's helped me so much in finding myself, and I really do appreciate and love this supportive community. This is my first post, and it's going to be REALLY LONG, so I apologize in advance.

I'll lead into my dilemma with a quote revealing an idea that many of you might be familiar with:

"Trans women are women regardless of how they present to the outside world. A trans woman says 'I want to be preceived as a woman by others because I am a woman' not 'I want to be a woman.'"

This quote was by a user here named 'niamh' and was found in a thread that... I can no longer find.

I don't quite understand or identify with the idea of the two genders, whether it be in the binary sense that society generally endorses or whether it be in the spectrum which it actually is. Why? Because I don't know the definition of masculine or feminine; I don't know what makes a man a man and a woman a woman. I've seen it said on another website that gender is not on a spectrum that SUMMARIZES your character, but rather gender is what you make of it given your individual traits and where these individual traits lie on in the spectrum of masculine and feminine. I'd say that my psychological characteristics are more "girly" in the sense that girls might behave this way much more than guys, but I don't think I'm able to wholeheartedly say "I am a woman." I want to be perceived as a woman by others, I want to live as a woman, just because that's just how and who I am! That's just what my preference is! The thing is, I don't actually KNOW if my identity, the "who I am," is female in gender, technically speaking. I know it's certainly not male.

I don't like my male body, especially its shape and the whole short hair thing, and I don't really like having a penis, but I can live with it I suppose. The only thing I know that distinguishes males and females is their physical bodies, their few general psychological differences, and just a couple of things that generally define male and female appearance (the physical bodies of both sexes as well as the whole "guys tend to dress this way and girls tend to dress that way" thing). I personally very very very much prefer carrying myself with a female appearance; I hate my male one. It makes me feel slightly uncomfortable and insecure. Whenever I see my unclothed body in the mirror or whenever I see my face with short, boyish hair, I sigh. I really do want a female body and appearance—not necessarily the skinny hourglass figure that many in society endorse, but it would be nice—I want to be able to have long feminine hair, some makeup, female clothes, and those curves that I'm so close yet so far from having. Nothing overly feminine, I just want to carry myself as a normal girl at all times. I do cross dress privately, and I've been crossdressing ever since I was 7 years old. And whenever I look at ANY woman, I'm envious. Not overly anxious, though.

Physical gender dysphoria* (general dissatisfaction with male body): kinda strong; but I can live with my penis I guess, even though I really want a vagina. Still, my dysphoria is definitely not nearly as strong as it is in those individuals who have constant anxiety because of their born sex, and that's part of the reason why I don't think I can say that I'm a woman.

*I say "physical gender dysphoria" because I want to talk about my physical male body rather than just my genitals in the term "genital dysphoria."

Gender identity as I see it: Transgender, specifically genderqueer

I want to live as a physical woman, but does that necessarily make me a woman? Can I be just a transgender (gender-queer) transexual? Gaaah I guess I know who I am but I just want to be able to label who I am. I honestly do want to be able to say "I'm a girl" but I'm just not convinced that I truly am since I don't understand what makes a girl a girl; I do know that I want to physically live as a female and that I'm characterized as girly, but I just don't strongly identify with the female gender as far as my little understanding of it goes. I also know for certain that I don't identify as a male.

Sorry for my rambling. Here's my final question, plain and simple: do I have a female gender identity? Given what I've told you about myself, can I wholeheartedly say that I am a woman? I don't believe so, but I also don't know what makes a woman a woman or a man a man, so I'm still uncertain. So, what DOES make a woman a woman?

Honestly, just typing this all out helped me a pretty decent amount to gather my thoughts. I'm so sorry if I screwed up any terms, appeared hedonistic, said anything stupid, burnt anyone's eyes, confused anyone, or offended anyone. If I do any of those things, just attribute that to my ignorance. And if I at all unclear and vague (I probably was) or if you want/need more information, please ask. Any help would be so greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Jamie D]

Hello, Kloey!  Welcome.

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Okay, now to your observations.  Let me ask you a simple question ... What defines a woman?  Her body?  Or her brain?

My own feelings are not unlike yours.  I remember getting "the question" from my first therapist: "If you had no connections in the world, and you could choose your own body, what would it be like?"

I would not object to looking and presenting much in the same way as my avatar of Hermaphroditus.  But even deeper, my girl inside wants the "proper" sort of outward presentation as well.

[Cindy]

Hi Kloey,

There is as you say a fundamental problem in 'proof' of what is male and female. The chromosomal, genetic, physical characteristics appear to be very poor indicators of gender. Gender and sex are based more on  perception than physical parameters.  It is obvious that most men have no desire to be women and most women have no desire to be men. Tier concept of their maleness or femininity within those boundaries however are great, and utterly normal.

I have always known I was female. I fought it in the hope of being normal, I then realised I was, and I'm now a very happy normal woman. Science has so far been inadequate to address the question and psychologists explore mental perception to define a persons gender.

I was interested in another way, how would Law define gender? Good Law explores the basics of morality and sense in a logical argument frame work. People may not agree with legal outcomes, but when Law is constructed in a logical an hence non-emotional way then you can agree or disagree but you need to understand the argument dispassionately.

This is the legal definition of a transgendered person as far as Australian law is concerned. People may not agree but it provides a frame work, it is in lay terms, and I have posted it before, the attribution is included.

I thought I'd copy this from the Australian sex discrimination laws, some of the best in the world, but it states what Australian law considers a legal transgender person, they are copied from www.gendercentre.org.au and excellent resource for transgender people.


Who is counted as transgender under anti-discrimination law?

If you live, have lived, or want to live as a member of the opposite gender (sex) to your birth gender, the  anti-discrimination law counts you as transgender. This means you are legally counted as transgender if:

·   you want to live as a member of your preferred gender (the opposite gender to your birth gender);

·   you are in the process of changing over to your preferred gender;

·   you live as a member of your preferred gender;

·   you have lived as a member of your preferred gender in the past; or

·   you are intersexual (born with indeterminate sex, for example, with sexual parts of both sexes) and you live as a member of your preferred gender.

You do not have to have had any sex-change or other surgery. You do not have to have taken any hormones in the past or be taking them now. It does not matter what your gender was at birth.

It does not matter which gender is your preferred gender. It does not matter why you are transgender. It does not matter how you describe or label yourself (for example, as transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual or something else).

What matters is how you live and behave, or how you want to live and behave. If you fit any one of the "rules" listed above, then the anti-discrimination law counts you as transgender.



Cindy

[StellaB]

Therein lies the question, doesn't it?

I'm a genetic mosaic, so I'm both trans and intersexed, with the ambiguity coming in puberty (mine kind of started suddenly, stopped, then started again) and to be perfectly honest today I don't know exactly who I am.

But it doesn't matter because I know enough to know that I'm female, and that I'm a human being. I know that I'm also an individual. Knowing that I'm all of these three things is enough for me to develop my own identity.

I'm not really that bothered about being a woman because the whole point of everything I've done was to find myself, discover myself and develop a definite sense of identity so that I could learn to relate to others and function in society on a par with everyone else.

That saying I can understand if you've felt or known you were a woman all along you're probably going to want to know what lies at the core essential.

But is there actually a core essential, given that we are all human beings and sex and gender exist primarily for the sake of reproduction and evolution of the human race?

[Lesley_Roberta]

Its simple, you are what you say you are.

Hey I know a person can eventually go with the ole chromosome cop out.

But so many people insist there is a soul, and so many want to believe in things that simply are not there.

And then they in the same breath expect you to NOT be allowed to have what can be called 'the self'.

They can't have it both ways.

I am a female, because I said so, and I have no interest in providing ANY proof. Sorry, your demand for proof is denied. Nope, stop quoting laws, stop talking biology, I am simply just denying you because I feel like it.

I am a female, and everyone can just deal with it. It is not ME that has a problem, the problem is with anyone that has the problem.

YOU do not have a dilemma Kloey, THEY do. You are who you say you are. And if you vote female, then the matter is settled.

Myself, yesterday I annoyingly could not stop saying he and him when referring to myself. What can I say, 51 years is not easy to turn off. If I make 100 mistakes in manner of address every damned day, it is a speech impediment, not my being unconvinced.

[Devlyn]

Hi Kloey, welcome to Susan's Place!  Here is the thread you mentioned in your first post. When it comes to finding things on this site, Devlyn is your girl! Hugs, Devlyn

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,119478.msg951265.html#msg951265

[Beth Andrea]

Hi Kloey,

There is as you say a fundamental problem in 'proof' of what is male and female. The chromosomal, genetic, physical characteristics appear to be very poor indicators of gender. Gender and sex are based more on  perception than physical parameters.  It is obvious that most men have no desire to be women and most women have no desire to be men. Tier concept of their maleness or femininity within those boundaries however are great, and utterly normal.

I have always known I was female. I fought it in the hope of being normal, I then realised I was, and I'm now a very happy normal woman. Science has so far been inadequate to address the question and psychologists explore mental perception to define a persons gender.

I was interested in another way, how would Law define gender? Good Law explores the basics of morality and sense in a logical argument frame work. People may not agree with legal outcomes, but when Law is constructed in a logical an hence non-emotional way then you can agree or disagree but you need to understand the argument dispassionately.

This is the legal definition of a transgendered person as far as Australian law is concerned. People may not agree but it provides a frame work, it is in lay terms, and I have posted it before, the attribution is included.

I thought I'd copy this from the Australian sex discrimination laws, some of the best in the world, but it states what Australian law considers a legal transgender person, they are copied from www.gendercentre.org.au and excellent resource for transgender people.


Who is counted as transgender under anti-discrimination law?

If you live, have lived, or want to live as a member of the opposite gender (sex) to your birth gender, the  anti-discrimination law counts you as transgender. This means you are legally counted as transgender if:

·   you want to live as a member of your preferred gender (the opposite gender to your birth gender);

·   you are in the process of changing over to your preferred gender;

·   you live as a member of your preferred gender;

·   you have lived as a member of your preferred gender in the past; or

·   you are intersexual (born with indeterminate sex, for example, with sexual parts of both sexes) and you live as a member of your preferred gender.

You do not have to have had any sex-change or other surgery. You do not have to have taken any hormones in the past or be taking them now. It does not matter what your gender was at birth.

It does not matter which gender is your preferred gender. It does not matter why you are transgender. It does not matter how you describe or label yourself (for example, as transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual or something else).

What matters is how you live and behave, or how you want to live and behave. If you fit any one of the "rules" listed above, then the anti-discrimination law counts you as transgender.



Cindy

Wow, what a very well written, easy to understand definition!

In therapy, I was asked "What do you think "being a man" means?" I couldn't answer that. Not only did I have no idea...on further thought, if I asked myself, "What does "being a woman" mean?" I couldn't answer that, either. In my mind, anything that is traditionally "male" also applies to female: courage, integrity, honor, respect, nurturing (ask any farmer about that, if you think only women nurture), strength (within the limits of the body, of course), etc.

All I can say for sure is that I detested my male body, and everything that went with it. Now with a female body, I love it! Just a couple minor details that need to be changed, and all will be well.

"Identity" covers a large territory...self-identity, body identity, job/work identity...Hmm, I wonder if there are MtF's (or FtM's) who choose to not physically transition at all, or to any degree, yet want to be addressed as their proper gender?

[suzifrommd]

So, what DOES make a woman a woman?

Kloey, I'll tell you about my personal experience in case that helps. I struggled with this and now I think I have a better understanding.

I always assumed I was male. I had a male body, everyone else told me I was male, so I didn't have much to go on.

But in my internal life:
* I seemed always to prefer female friends. I couldn't give a rational reason for this, I just did.
* Preferred movies, books, music, and other media intended for women.
* Felt somewhat cheated because I had not been born with a female body. I didn't think that a female body was "better", just that I wanted one much more than I wanted the one I had. Again, I could not have given you a reason for it.
* I found myself seeing ordinary looking women and wishing I could switch lives with them for the sole reason that I would get to have a female body.
* Had fantasies of wearing a female body for a day "just to see what it felt like."

All this was not enough for me to think of myself transgender. But when I began to explore all this, I started coming across Transgender women who had successfully transitioned. I started feeling an unaccountable desire to follow in their footsteps.

At the suggestion of one of my friends, I began dressing as a woman periodically and going out into public to see how I was received. It was in many ways, an unpleasant experience. I got stared at, my clothes were uncomfortable, and I was very self conscious, always afraid some piece of my clothing or wig would slip, I'd get makeup on something, etc.

Despite the unpleasantness, I loved the experience. I was drawn to it, couldn't wait until the next time I did it. Again I couldn't say or explain why I wanted it, but there was something inside of me that preferred acting as a woman than as a man.

I still wouldn't say I "feel like a woman". But all these messages I'm getting from my own brain have gotten me to conclude I'm MtF transgender.

I hope this helps.

[JoanneB]

Sadly the "Proof" aspect of being transgendered was the prime factor in Maryland shooting down, yet again it's Trans Rights bill that was in committe. One or two Senators focused on that. Just how do you define transgender? The typical arguement from the opposition is WHat stops some sicko guy from wearing a dress, going into the Ladies, raping some woman, and claim he is innocent because he is transgendered and it was OK for him to be in there? Ahhhhh... what part of rapeing is legal?

I also abhor the concept of having to be a certified card-carrying member of the TG club in order to have protections in a civil society. Not everyone can for numerous reasons go through that official process. Especially if you are not absolutely sure of commitment to the end-game, which under the law I can easily see being a requirement for permission to use a bathroom

[Beth Andrea]

Sadly the "Proof" aspect of being transgendered was the prime factor in Maryland shooting down, yet again it's Trans Rights bill that was in committe. One or two Senators focused on that. Just how do you define transgender? The typical arguement from the opposition is WHat stops some sicko guy from wearing a dress, going into the Ladies, raping some woman, and claim he is innocent because he is transgendered and it was OK for him to be in there? Ahhhhh... what part of rapeing is legal?

I also abhor the concept of having to be a certified card-carrying member of the TG club in order to have protections in a civil society. Not everyone can for numerous reasons go through that official process. Especially if you are not absolutely sure of commitment to the end-game, which under the law I can easily see being a requirement for permission to use a bathroom

I stopped being comfortable using the men's room some months ago...Having breasts, makeup, and a gaff made it totally uncomfortable to stand, and the stall, while ok if no one was there, became emotionally uncomfortable if a man came in.

The reality is, there just is no empirical method of determining who is, and is not, trans.

Consider if we were to ask "What is an empirical method of determining if someone is Christian"...there's no weight check, no blood test, no nothing...just the person's word that they are "born again." If we respect the person, we just accept their statement as being true, for them.  We just want the same respect as humans.

[Lesley_Roberta]

A VERY good observation.

"Consider if we were to ask "What is an empirical method of determining if someone is Christian"...there's no weight check, no blood test, no nothing...just the person's word that they are "born again.""

Very well done Beth.

[calico]

One of my therapists, from way back before and when I firgured it out, posed to me this question.

"Say if you were to strip away all stereotypes, socially acceptable and un-acceptable behaviors, and drop what society thinks and determines what is male or female and was just left with the raw person. What would be your feeling, and wher might you fit? How far would you go to be that which you believe?"

There really isnt anyone exceept yourself that can determine who you are, in this regard you really have to have introspective and let go of what other's opinions are.

When I decided annd finally let the girl inside loose, I knew without a doubt who I was, I know for some people it is not as so clear. What you need to figure out is how far you want to go for others to recognise who you are and how much you care about their opinions if they are not aligned with your view.
being transgendered is not an easy road and you are definately taken the steps to figure it all out, I wish nothing but the best for you in all your endeavours, and realise there are lots of people here to help you along if you ever feel lost or down. I know I have been helped here for sure and I havent been here that long

[Edge]

Personally, I don't think it's masculine or feminine behaviour or likes and dislikes that make a gender. After all, there are plenty of men with feminine traits or likes and plenty of women with masculine traits and likes both trans and cis alike.
I don't know what makes a woman a woman, but I know that I'm male because:
-I flinch at being referred as female
-I get really euphoric at every step I take towards being seen as male.
-Whenever I imagined the person I am/want to be, that person was always male. I cannot imagine being myself as female. I feel happiest and more self aware when I imagine myself as male.
In short, I think gender isn't really something that can be defined by outside influences. I think it's something we experience mostly internally. Does that make sense?

[eli77]

I just had my second birthday with Sarah as my legal name and an "F" on my birth certificate... and I still couldn't tell you what a woman is. It's a term I wear with discomfort. And I prefer to think of it as something I am defined as, rather than part of my identity.

I've been through SRS and facial surgery, hormones and legal changes, electrolysis and laser. My form is as close to our notion of female as it is possible for a person of my history to achieve, and yet I still have a fairly hostile relationship with gender.

I find the most comforting explanation of my origin the one about insufficient testosterone reaching my brain in the womb, and causing the disconnect between my physical form and my brain's internal map for my body. But that's just one possible story of many.

In the end the thing that really matters? I'm a better person now. Happier and saner and kinder and stronger. I used to hate myself passionately. And now I think I'm pretty okay.

You asked whether you have a female gender identity. Not only is that not a question anyone but you can answer... I'm not sure the answer one way or another is actually going to help you that much. These choices we make, around how to define ourselves... in the end I find the choices we make around our actions more relevant: what do you want to do with your body, with your life? What do you want, and how will you get it? That always seems like the important part to me. And I think if you are clear on that, and you seem to be, that's a good place to be.

What makes a woman a woman? *shrug* No idea, love. If it makes you happy to call yourself that, go for it. If it makes you uncomfortable, don't bother. Best I can offer.

[DanaRSS]

Wow, thank you for posting this.  I feel like I could have written some of this myself.  Except in the opposite direction, since I'm female-bodied and sometimes-male-identified.  (Or rather, I have a bunch of different feelings and experiences that I choose to lump together under the label "male-identified".)

I don't think every person has a central emotion or mental state that they recognize as "feeling like a woman" or "feeling like a man".  When I first learned the concept of ->-bleeped-<- as a teenager, I assumed that everyone had an innate feeling of their own gender, a very simple feeling like knowing which way is up or how hungry you are, except this tells you what your gender is.  But the more I learn about it, the more I think that this experience just doesn't exist for some people, maybe even most people.

In the end the thing that really matters? I'm a better person now. Happier and saner and kinder and stronger. I used to hate myself passionately. And now I think I'm pretty okay.

You asked whether you have a female gender identity. Not only is that not a question anyone but you can answer... I'm not sure the answer one way or another is actually going to help you that much. These choices we make, around how to define ourselves... in the end I find the choices we make around our actions more relevant: what do you want to do with your body, with your life? What do you want, and how will you get it? That always seems like the important part to me. And I think if you are clear on that, and you seem to be, that's a good place to be.

This really sums it up, I think.  Lots of people benefit from physical or social transition even if they don't feel an innate, abstract sense of their own gender.  So even if you never discover that feeling inside yourself, that doesn't necessarily mean that transition is a bad idea for you.

Something that's helped me a lot has been to work through everything that's low-impact and reversible (clothes, pronouns, etc) through trial and error.  I've basically moved away from thinking "I am this type of person because that's how I feel inside, and this type of person is happiest when they do X, Y and Z, so that's what I should do".  Instead, it's more like "I tried X and it felt great, so I'm going to keep doing that.  I tried Y and that didn't feel so good, so I won't do that anymore."  It's been waaaay more effective than trying to work through it entirely in my own head, and I'm much happier because of it.