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How global are we really?

Started by Lesley_Roberta, April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM

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Joanna Dark

Getting away from any politics as I loathe politics, transsexualism is expressed throughout every culture in the world and there is no statistically significant variation in transsexuals from one country or one ethnicity to the next. It is a very human condition. I'll never understand the need to divide and categorize. Can't we all just appreciate and celebrate how much we have in common rather than focus on what little differences we have?
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spacial

Thank you sylvannus.

That was most interesting.
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Lesley_Roberta

Sylvannus, I wish none of what you had said was true, but sadly you would know more than me.

It's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.

I would never tolerate a friend being treated that way, even by a parent.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Anatta

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 20, 2013, 02:14:15 PM


It's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.


Kia Ora Lesley_Roberta,

Thailand would be the exception...Thailand has one of the most [if not the most] visible trans-population...Plus trans-legal rights are improving there too...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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JulieC.

QuoteIt's sad that the Asian world has such severe expectations of its people. I constantly hear from other Asians how parents have iron solid unyielding ways when it comes to their kids. So many have such high education levels, but, at the cost of such a high suicide rate too. And that is for the average Asian youth.

Really Lesley?  Asians compromise a huge number of people from a equally large continent.  I really don't think you can just lump them all together like that (even if that stereotype is true which I'm not sure it is).  Even in your own country, are people from Quebec the same as people from Vancouver?

I did like the question "how global are we really?".  I love hearing from people living all over the world and what there life is like.  Since I will be unlikely to be able to travel to any of these places in the near future it offers me a glimpse of what life is like in other places.  I really appreciated the posts from Sylvannus, Kuan Yin, and Henna because I learned something about there countries.  I was most shocked by what Henna wrote because I was one who thought Finland was about as progressive as it could get. 

I think we all, regardless of where we live, are subject to some discrimination.  At least for some of us discrimination is not public policy.  I like where I live.  Even if technically I live in Jesusland??? 



"Happiness is not something ready made.  It comes from your own actions" - Dalai Lama
"It always seem impossible until it's done." - Nelson Mandela
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Lesley_Roberta

Actually Julie, Canada even though it is the second largest country in the world, it's mostly empty space. In Canada's north, have a cell phone handy during an emergency is actually not worth as much as a good thermal blanket a couple of liters of water and something to start a fire with. There is no cell coverage in a lot of Canada, as it is simply that big. And if your car breaks down, you stay in it.

We have lots of the Asian community in Canada, and like most ethnic groups, they tend to bring home with them.
That's typical of our major cities though. Little Japan, Little China, Little this little that little the other place.

My home town has a Japanese restaurant, that's the extent of Japan here though. We have I think two Chinese restaurants. The town has no little versions of anywhere though. But I hear of the biases of the points of origin. I delivered furniture for Leon's in the 80s in Toronto. A lot of the cliches, sadly, they are not nice in a lot of cases, and I saw examples all day long all week long. But there isn't really any of that outside the cities here in rural Canada.

I suppose that is why I ditched Toronto after 4 years. I didn't belong there. I suppose I am a Canadian version of a 'hick' :)

The Asian portion of Canada though is numerically sufficient, that popular thought is Cantonese should be our second language, and the only reason it isn't is well I don' know. We suffer the French because they're spoiled. Oh and being as I am a Quebecker, I am in my right to be annoyed with Quebeckers :)

Sweden is also home to contradictions. So many freedoms, and yet not. I'm of Scottish origins, and while it is true my countrymen wear kilts, we also have a large portion of the world's greatest male chauvinist jerks. Bond, James Misogynist Bond (well that's how most seen Mr Connery hehe).

But I think the people of the Asian portion of the planet, may well have something of a lock on rigidity when it comes to non religion driven intolerance to changes in social constructs. Japan, likely the most insular nation on the planet. If you were not born there, and your spouse, your kids, even if born there won't be considered real Japanese. India is also home to some very rigid caste based thinking.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Anatta

Quote from: JulieC. on April 20, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
.  I really appreciated the posts from Sylvannus, Kuan Yin, and Henna because I learned something about there countries.  I was most shocked by what Henna wrote because I was one who thought Finland was about as progressive as it could get. 



Kia Ora Julie,

I should point out, I live in Aotearoa NZ...The land of the the world's first transsexual politician and Major...

However my trans-ness spreads across three countries...UK where I was born and got my gender recognition certificate and new 'female identified' birth certificate issued. Australia I'm an Australian citizen[naturalised back in the mid 1970s] and now have female on my Australian passport. And NZ where I had the surgery and where I presently reside [have done for the past 26 years]...

Life Downunder [for me personally] is good...Here in NZ there's legal recognition for trans-people and  protection by law from discrimination... However people are people [only "human"] so discrimination does exist here in NZ, and for some Kiwi trans-people life can be hell-Like anywhere else in the world I guess...

http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/minimumrights/transgender/

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Rachel

Philadelphia , Pennsylvania, USA is a magnet for transitioners from several states. We have the oldest LGBTQ book store in the country ( 1978). The Mazzoni Center is an informed consent LGBTQ health provider. It takes 2 months to get an appointment for HRT due to the demand and they have at least 4 PA's. The William Way LGBTQ center has offices where Therapists meet clients in a safe and welcoming environment. My therapist calls my name from a balcony and no one cares or looks at you like you are strange because we are all exceptional there. The center is located in the Gayborhood and the street signes have rainbows on them and rainbow flags fly with pride. A City Councilmen, Denni O'Brian is sponsoring leigilation to mandate a gender neutral bathrooms in all city buildings and all new construction. Also, he is sponsoring legiasltion that HRT and SRS be covered in health care plans with employers that offer plans in the city. His aim is to make Philadelphia PA the most LGBT friendly city in the USA. We are having a very large Trans* conferance June 13-15, 2013 with hundreds of panel dissussions at the Philadelphia Convention Center. I will be there, on HRT and starting to express in clothing ( goals, very excited).

We also have hate crimes and bigotry from binaries. 

We need to spend our money at Trans* friendly stores, companies and employers. (Trans*Proud) could be the mark of exceptionalism.
HRT  5-28-2013
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Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
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Dr. Thomas in 2020 FEMLAR
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Jamie D

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.

But it's convenient I am in Canada, I wonder, how much of the rest of the world is as able as me?

Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).

What about truly impoverished nations?

What about places like China where life is cheap?

I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.

Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?

Yes, we have members here who are from countries that still execute gays, lesbians, and transgenders.
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

Now this might surprise some members... Transsexualism in Iran...Well worth a watch...

http://www.roozvideo.com/video/3301/transsexuals_in_iran_part_1_of_6/

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: sylvannus on April 20, 2013, 09:45:04 PM
Alright, Asia is a huge place having a current population of over 4 billion. With 1000-5000 years of human civilization in most places, ethnic backgrounds become extremely complicated. It tends to be very different from place to place not being restricted to political boundaries.

In general, the more westernized an Asian country is, the better it treats LGBTI, whereas communism does the opposite. In terms of religion, Buddhism and Christian are somehow more tolerant, while Confuciusm and Islam are worse.

Far East, or East Asia, includes China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, part of Vietnam, and Singapore. In history, these places have been under profound influence from the Chinese civilization and Confuciusm. It is probably the most mysterious place in the eyes of US/EU folks. The society there is actually intolerant against LGBTI whatever the law says. Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Singapore are more westernized, so normally people respect the laws better. Whereas in mainland China, although the constitution says every human being is equal, there is no specific law protecting the equal opportunity for LGBT, and the society do whatever they wish. Only 40-50 years ago there were lynchings executing LGBT which was considered heroism and would never be punished by a law court.

People can change their genders in most of these places provided that they have gone through a complete SRS. Need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized? Of course. In most places people can never marry after legal identity change. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship. In mainland China, it is a special case that post-op TS can marry after a legal identity change. This is not actually because how friendly the society is to TG, but due to lack of law regarding transsexualiam. For example, once a MTF man goes through a legal identity change, the only laws that fit on her thereafter will be the laws regarding birth females, and also a similar case for FTM people. However, as I mentioned, the society is intolerant against LGBTI whatever the law says.

How about North Korea? China is now only partially communism while North Korea is still completely that. I have never heard about LGBT existence in North Korea. It is most likely that all of whom have been accidentally exposed must have be executed in silence with no doubt and no sentencing, just like what people used to do before the 1980s in China.

The Muslim world. I heard that Southeast Asia Muslim countries tolerant LGBT better than Middle East/Middle Asian Muslim countries, but I am not completely sure. Admittedly I know little about muslim.

The Buddhism Southeast countries, Thailand etc., are probably the best places for TG folks. However note that a transsexual in Thailand can never really change his/her legal identity into his/her desired gender, and will forever be bound to the birth gender, which is even worse than the Far East.

India and Nepal etc... Traditionally the Indian society severely discriminate female, so for MTF, it would be a difficult place. Even the Buddhist Scriptures which were written here say that the true believers will all become male when going to the heaven after death, and this is considered as a huge pride for female believers!

This is a map from wikipedia about where TG people can change their identity as blue means more or less OK. It is still not optimistic worldwide. Henna, if you are still in... could you explain what is happening with Finland on this map?


Kia Ora Sylvannus,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Finland

"In Finland, homosexuality has been legal since 1971 and declassified as an illness in 1981.[1] Discrimination based on sexual orientation was criminalized in 1995 and discrimination based on gender identity in 2005. Transvestism was declassified as an illness in 2011!"

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Henna

Kuan's link covers my country very well.

You can get your gender recognized legally when the following takes place:

- You fulfill the TS diagnostic criteria, over 18 years of old, sterilized (basically sufficient amount of time on hormones), living two years in the correct gender and if married, a permission from your husband/wife, that they allow the marriage to be changed into registered relationship.

I do acknowledge, that we have a good system, as having something is better than nothing and compared to China (horrible to read Sylvannus account what is happening there), this is like being in different planet.

However, our system has many flaws and things which are against human rights. Also even when things are written down into laws and regulations, that we should have two professional TS clinics for diagnostics, we only have one and the second clinic consists of doctors, doing their rotation. I unfortunately have to use that clinic and let me tell you, going there for "examination" and for "diagnostics", has nothing to do with science or therapy. It just feels indifferent for the staff. It's like lottery there who gets a what diagnose and when.

My eyes have just opened to the flaws of our system, especially since reading this forum and reading how things work in Canada, Australia and even in USA. Yes I can get even SRS here for free, but everything takes forever and the system is very arbitrary. It's not therapy, more like a series of questions that you have to answer "correctly".

I would rather pay money, to get a professional therapist and doctor, with whom to discuss about myself and my future.

And for treatments here it seems that most older people who have work, start the treatments on their own in any case, as the official system just takes forever.

I just feel that I'm being punished over and over again in this country, for being who I am. We have also a compulsory military service here and I declined that a long time ago, as I just couldn't picture myself with among thousands of men. I had two options, either jail or do a civil service, which is twice as long as the military service (meaning it's just a different type of punishment). This is also one thing that has been noted by Amnesty and EU several times, that we actually have people in jail, who have been put there because of their opinion. Not very different from China...
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Jamie D

There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site.  We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."

Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.

Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.

Thank you.
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Donna Elvira

Quote from: Henna on April 21, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
Kuan's link covers my country very well.

You can get your gender recognized legally when the following takes place:

- You fulfill the TS diagnostic criteria, over 18 years of old, sterilized (basically sufficient amount of time on hormones), living two years in the correct gender and if married, a permission from your husband/wife, that they allow the marriage to be changed into registered relationship.

I do acknowledge, that we have a good system, as having something is better than nothing and compared to China (horrible to read Sylvannus account what is happening there), this is like being in different planet.

However, our system has many flaws and things which are against human rights. Also even when things are written down into laws and regulations, that we should have two professional TS clinics for diagnostics, we only have one and the second clinic consists of doctors, doing their rotation. I unfortunately have to use that clinic and let me tell you, going there for "examination" and for "diagnostics", has nothing to do with science or therapy. It just feels indifferent for the staff. It's like lottery there who gets a what diagnose and when.

My eyes have just opened to the flaws of our system, especially since reading this forum and reading how things work in Canada, Australia and even in USA. Yes I can get even SRS here for free, but everything takes forever and the system is very arbitrary. It's not therapy, more like a series of questions that you have to answer "correctly".

I would rather pay money, to get a professional therapist and doctor, with whom to discuss about myself and my future.

And for treatments here it seems that most older people who have work, start the treatments on their own in any case, as the official system just takes forever.

I just feel that I'm being punished over and over again in this country, for being who I am. We have also a compulsory military service here and I declined that a long time ago, as I just couldn't picture myself with among thousands of men. I had two options, either jail or do a civil service, which is twice as long as the military service (meaning it's just a different type of punishment). This is also one thing that has been noted by Amnesty and EU several times, that we actually have people in jail, who have been put there because of their opinion. Not very different from China...

Living in France, the country of "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity", is not any better. To avoid going through "official" channels pretty identical to those you describe most of us go through a DIY transition.  Personally, I have no issue with this as I am not sure I would want "society" to pay for something which I have chosen to do myself. (Even if I am aware of the limits of "personal choice")

What I find extremely objectionable though is the process you have to go through to get your gender modified. It still requires getting a court order in a process that can last anywhere between one and two years and which requires using the services of an attorney.  Furthermore, the judges have a lot of discretionary power to accept or refuse the change so the probability of getting a positive outcome is very dependant on where you live. Also, until very recently, proving you had done GRS (in spite of all the well documented dangers of such surgery) was an essential precondition. It has since been relaxed somewhat but certain judges still consider it a must.

If you were married, another precondition was getting a divorce as same sex mariage was against the law.  Since France is finally changing the legislation on same sex marriage the latter condition will finally disappear (thus removing one major obstacle for me).

I am going to try getting the change without GRS which I simply can't do for now (too much time required), hoping that the other changes, HRT, FFS...plus therapists letters etc. will be sufficient to convince the judge that he/she can safely allow me to put an "F" on my ID instead of an "M".

Still quite a way to go but overall I think we all have to admit that compared to 30 years ago, progress has been quite remarkable.
Bises
Donna   
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ThetisnFurter

Must be very global. For instance, I'm from Turkey. However, this country is getting worse each day. We have same president for 12 years! He is there, because he is a strong muslim. All he do is arresting writers, artists, shutting down Tv Channels, censoring newspapers and yes building more and more mosques. In any 5 minutes of walk, you come across a mosque. Yet, in the capital city of Turkey, I guess there are only 5-7 hospitals, 2 Libraries, 4 colleges.  ???

Most Turkish people are ignorant, they don't care what's happening around the world. In here, there are only two kinds of people. Belivers and non-believers.

Believers (%90 of the country) are likely to hate gays (and other minorities) and commit hate crime! Luckily, I don't face them so often, or they don't know the ''awful truth'' about me.
It's not easy having a good time, even smiling makes my face ache!  :icon_ashamed:
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spacial

Quote from: JulieC. on April 20, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
Really Lesley?  Asians compromise a huge number of people from a equally large continent.  I really don't think you can just lump them all together like that (even if that stereotype is true which I'm not sure it is).  Even in your own country, are people from Quebec the same as people from Vancouver?

That's a very good point but one which needs to be applied in context.

As individuals, we represent ourselves according to our personal attitudes and beliefs. I am potato, you are patato. That much is the individual. (Notice I'm the potato  :laugh: )

As a group, we are represented by the consensus. The consensus here, for example, is transgender as a continuum. Some individuals may not personally agree. Some may strongly disagree, but we all agree to represent that point as an alternative to being ostracised.

I can say for example, with some level of certainty, that in Scotland, using alcohol is a norm. There are many Scots who don't use it, but the norm is represented by those that do. That isn't a negative stereotype, it's an observation of a social trend.

We can say with some level of certainty, that the norm among those of Sino-Asia culture, tend to place great emphasis upon education, especially for some, upon family and so on. There have to be exceptions. These are people. But these are social norms imposed by the culture. The culture exists as a unity because its members tend to conform rather than the alternative of being ostracised.

In all human societies the norm is heterosexual relationships and conventional gender expression. Some societies practice a tolerance as a trend. Though it is interesting that, in any crisis the society tend s to revert or seek to reestablish stability by reverting to an earlier point. 'Everything was fine before....' or 'This will lead to/result in/indicates ....'. These are the naysayer responses and all societies feature these. (They are actually two and only two, very different naysayer responses represented by much greater trends elsewhere, but I digress!)

Where change is part of natural process, such as children growing up and becoming individuals, not necessarily like their parents, or people dying, then the society responds according to its ability to adapt. If the society is based upon strong structures, designed for stability, necessary adaptation is invariably accompanied by a period of revision where naysayers predominate.

While it is to be appreciated that, as a group which seeks to further social tolerance, we avoid any indications of revisionist stereotyping, there is a fine line between social appreciation and negative stereotyping.


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Lesley_Roberta

Quote from: Jamie D on April 21, 2013, 12:20:50 AM
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site.  We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."

Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.

Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.

Thank you.

I quite agree, better the site remain focused on support.

But I will confess, off site, I prefer 'if the shoe fits'. I am not sympathetic to groupings of humanity, that make a point of spitting on my existence, and then insisting on running to the teacher the moment someone calls them on it. And that includes even members of the transgender community that for their own reasons often insist on supporting the same groupings that sure don't support them.

Just saying, I behave myself here as requested, and I do it out of respect for my host and my host's wishes, but, keep in mind, off site, don't expect my views to be 'nice'.

It is unwise to visit my Facebook or webpage if you don't wish to hear my honest thoughts.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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peky

Quote from: Jamie D on April 21, 2013, 12:20:50 AM
There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site.  We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."

Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.

Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.

Thank you.

When the head of a 1 billion people organization declares me an 'abomination' because according to him may nature resides between my legs and not my ears..well then honey, I am going to 'tell it like it is' but I have abstain myself to do do so because I know what will be coming my way as punishment..

The same holds true for a government or culture that allows the persecution of inocents...why we should not say it as it is?

Let me give you an analogy..lets suppose that in America we still have slavery, yeah, now, today. Would it be
Quotequite a bit of stereotyping, and not in keeping with the function of a support site, too classify entire "South" as  "Racist" ?
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JulieC.

QuoteNow this might surprise some members... Transsexualism in Iran...Well worth a watch...

Yeah...surprised the heck out of me.



"Happiness is not something ready made.  It comes from your own actions" - Dalai Lama
"It always seem impossible until it's done." - Nelson Mandela
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barbie

Interesting thread.
I tend to travel abroad at least twice per year.
Helsinky, buenos aires, portland, BC, Tokyo, seattle, DC, madrid, gdansk, hamburg, ulaan baartar.... Yet never been to africa and china.
Generally, the level of tolerance is proportional to that of democracy.

Here is an old but still moving article:

Andy Marra
Public Relations Manager, GLSEN

The Beautiful Daughter: How My Korean Mother Gave Me the Courage to Transition
Posted: 11/16/2012 9:02 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-marra/the-beautiful-daughter-how-my-korean-mother-gave-me-the-courage-to-transition_b_2139956.html
Just do it.
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