How global are we really?

[sylvannus]

There has been quite a bit of stereotyping going on in this topic, which is not in keeping with the function of a support site.  We don't need to classify entire cultures as "spoiled," "chauvinist jerks," and "rapists."

Even the swipe at Christians ("Jesusland") as entirely unsympathetic to transpeople is unfair.

Let's think about our posts first, before bashing other cultures and nations.

Thank you.

I am sorry. I have been trying not to stereotype a country, but I feel I have depleted all of China's positive sides that I can find (legal identity change, TG marriage, etc.) If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below (which reflect the common public beliefs), I am sure you would find the same.

[Natkat]

Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?

I think theres many people on susan from diffrent places and also very ignorant places, but I also feel those usunally arnt mentioned either because its very difficult to debatate an issue who ex goes in Saudi arabic where the culture is very diffrent place to be transgender than ex in Sweden. but also I think many people is pretty paranoid. I dont even live in such a bad place again yet I had deep paranoia being on Susan, its ridiculous but I belive its a natural thing when you live either in a very small area or an area where you have to be very carefull all the time.
--
I live in Denmark as mention many places before, after reading the posts I think henna's decribtion of finland seams very simular to the danish system (its not a big surprize as the scandinavian countrys seams simular on this)
when I speak to people outside they often think Denmark is one of the best places to be transgender in, but the trust is that its very difficult.
you can get surgery for free but only if your lucky and agree on some people who call themself "expert" to go thouhgt there prossess of jugding you like henna says as an exame to prove that your a "true transexual" with very nerrow and sexual glasses putted on who can take years to fullfile. the surgery arnt even that great, the threatment in general is horrible so alot of people (like me) just go by our own find private doctors in our outside the country but those people are hunted like witches so the whole thing is very paranoia.

transgender people who go in the system to get permission know what to say, wear and act to get the highest chance to get permission, those who get rejected or dont want to go thought it gonna know there contacts to doctors and people to help. I have a list of doctors I know who is transfriendly, I can hand them out to people who in need for one, or in caise I need one myself but I dont mention there name in public or from people I dont know cause of the paranoia. I really love the country in many ways, but I think I also might to move at a time cause the whole system makes me feel very insecure and unsafe.

as well as in finland and china we also have forced sterilization, so to change your gendermarked on you need to do this. Denmark have open up for the posibilaty "maybe" to put away the law, since sweden have done so and norway is thinking about it, so a lucky guess would be in 2014 there would be no more forced sterilization but yet we dont know, as the same issues as in china when you change your ID you becoma a "newborn" and your old ID is "death" so to change your papers is very difficult as you out of sudden have no education, or nothing at all, but it should also become better. I have hope because I see diffrence happening slowly. my biggest concern is for kids who go into this trouble, I feel theres 0% help to get.
a little girl at 5 where send a paper to fill out of signing things like her sexual life, or partnership things for adults,
later on the goverment advice her to not wear dresses outside. those things make me angry, but yet you cant do anything
it worrys me alot since im young myself and know what its like not to have rights of your own.
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[spacial]

I am sorry. I have been trying not to stereotype a country, but I feel I have depleted all of China's positive sides that I can find (legal identity change, TG marriage, etc.) If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below (which reflect the common public beliefs), I am sure you would find the same.

With respect, I don't think you did.

Impressions are based upon whatever understand we each have. In a discussion among intelligent people, we should each feel we can freely express our impressions and have errors corrected by those with more, possibly first hand experiences.

[Natkat]

Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).

What about truly impoverished nations?

What about places like China where life is cheap?

I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.

Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?

I dont have friends of china or saudiarabia which I know of is transgender. but I have LGBT friends and people I know of from diffrent countrsy who arnt very accepting.
one of my friends from Guatamala surprized me alot by the ignorance in the country,
I also talk with a guy from Iran, his gay but his still go back to visit his parrents once in a while.
I know I cant relate to them 100% but I feel a sense of relation because I also thinking of moving myself many times. I might not be forced into it as nobodys gonna kill me for being transgender, however somethimes I just get very paranoid of it all.

I hope I could get better understanding of other countrys with transgender people. currently I havent been that many places but hopefully in the future it could happent. I think the best thing LGBTQ to do is to understand what issue a country have according to there ignorance. a country can be very openminded in a way and closeminded in another. ex as in Iran where you can be trans but not gay.

[Henna]

Natkat, sad to read that Denmark is the same as Finland 

But you said it very well, it's an theater act you need to put up, in order to get through the system and get the diagnose.

It's degrading and humiliating. Sometimes consisting of completely ludicrous questions, like for example last time I was asked if I bake cookies and make food...

[justpat]

  We were called  (two spirited people) look it up , by the Native American culture of North America
Especially in the US and Canada. They recognized us as a third gender this was documented in at
least 155 different Native American Tribes!
This was great for them till the white man came it was all down hill from then on. Very interesting reading.  We are special human beings! 

[FTMDiaries]

My doctor just got back to the US after a few years working in rural Africa. When she was prescribing me T, she told me that she came across very few trans folk in Africa. 'There should be more,' she said, 'but there aren't.'

It got me thinking that in a way it could be about wealth and standard of living. If you're living a rough life in rural Africa, you might not be able to afford to 'be yourself' because there are so many other things to worry about. Or perhaps it's a fear thing because it's even less acceptable than in more developed parts of the world. Or maybe you just don't have exposure to trans knowledge and role models, so you just consider yourself sad and broken and never really discover the cause. I dunno, but it sure got me thinking.

Ok, I know I've been offline for several days so I'm a bit behind on this thread, but I think I might be able to shed some light on why there are fewer visible trans* people in Africa. I highlight the word 'visible' here, because the percentage of people who are trans* is pretty much the same everywhere, but there are cultural reasons why trans* people in many parts of the world, including Africa, cannot express their identities.

Have you ever heard of 'ubuntu'? No, not the operating system – the African philosophy. A good translation into English is 'I am because we are'. It is the sense of community that is common in many African cultures, but particularly the Bantu cultures.

Have a look at this explanation of ubuntu, from Archbishop Desmond Tutu:
"Ubuntu speaks particularly about the fact that you can't exist as a human being in isolation. It speaks about our interconnectedness."

According to ubuntu, there is not really such a thing as an individual. A person's worth isn't measured by who they are, but rather it is reinforced by their membership of their community and their compliance with its rules, customs and standards. Group thinking is very much a part of many African cultures and any deviation from the group is abhorrent and is strongly discouraged.

Therefore, in many traditional African cultures, traditional roles (which include gender roles) are strictly enforced. Being visibly transgendered would mean rejecting the traditional role that is expected of you as a member of your community. That would be a direct violation of ubuntu and it is likely to lead to you being punished, ostracised... or much worse.

I have African LGBT friends who have had to leave their homes, their communities, their tribes, their countries, just so that they can be true to themselves. They grew up in extremely tight-knit communities and it is incredibly traumatic for them to leave all that behind... but they have no other choice if they're to find personal fulfilment. I have close relatives living in a particular African country where it is against the law to be LGBT... and I dread going back to visit them because I could be arrested even before I get through Customs, just for being gay & trans.

It's relatively easy to come out when you move to a big city, but it's practically impossible if you live in a rural area. For many such people, their need for ubuntu is so deeply ingrained that they have to hide their LGBT tendencies because they couldn't bear to be parted from their community. That is the main reason why your doctor didn't see them.

[spacial]

buddy.

When I was trying to research the historical evidence fro transgender and homosexuality, the evidence from the native Americans was of particular interest. The actual resources are few and far between so much of what I found was pieced together.

The evidence is quite clear though. A large community, isolated from Eurasia, even to the extent of not having the wheel, yet integrating, at the very least, gender ambiguous into the greater community.

It was important because it indicated that claims that intolerance are integral to human nature are not as obvious as might be claimed.

FTMDiaries

My wife is African. Her experiences are very much along the lines you suggest. Though she was not aware of the philosophy behind it all.

For her, the wrenching from her community has been a terrible price to pay. It's almost 40 years and she still maintains as much long distance connection as she can. Though she would naturally have been glad to send whatever financial support she could to her family, the actual support she has given to her own family and her extended family is huge. Certainly far greater than similar support from other expats we know.

I don't know if there are any promising indications on the horizon. From what I can see, there is little actual reason to maintain this aspect apart from the insistence of a few. But that seems to be enough. Much like the drug laws in the west, almost everyone knows they don't work are causing far more harm than they solve, no government would ever risk general reform for fear of the ranting of a minority.

Some areas are more tolerant than others. But tolerance and permissibility are different matters. Though the persecution being currently encouraged in Central Africa, Uganda, Kenya and so on are probably more to do with the influx of the various religious groups. Some American, others psuedo Islam.

[sylvannus]

Ok, I know I've been offline for several days so I'm a bit behind on this thread, but I think I might be able to shed some light on why there are fewer visible trans* people in Africa. I highlight the word 'visible' here, because the percentage of people who are trans* is pretty much the same everywhere, but there are cultural reasons why trans* people in many parts of the world, including Africa, cannot express their identities.
......

Hi Diaries:
It was such a similar culture regarding transsexualism some 40 years ago in China. You are nothing if you do not follow the normality of your community. Now in major cities like Shanghai and Beijing, we are westernizing. Luckily I was born in a big city near Shanghai where have the highest level of westernization. I can't imagine if I was born in a traditional rural area. Maybe I would have already committed suicide to cleanse the community?
When I came out to my father, he sent me a message saying that they will never accept a ->-bleeped-<- in the family and they will be looked upon by the community. He said I will have to leave the city of Wuxi and leave every of their acquaintances; never say I was born here, never say I am their children, never show my education there, and never come back. I was so sad. I love them and love Wuxi.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora sylvannus & FTMDiaries ,

I guess this is what it must be like[well similar] for many trans-people who are brought up in any close knit communities...What comes to mind are the close knit religious communities in the US...

I'm sure some US member's here can relate...


Metta Zenda

[spacial]

Maybe I would have already committed suicide to cleanse the community?

Thank goodness that didn't happen.

[sylvannus]

In addition, the Confuciusm advocates that a man's body does not belong to himself. Instead, it belongs to his parents, especially father (women? They are no more than tradable goods). (身体发肤，受之父母，不敢毁伤) Perhaps now you understand why corporal punishment is common in Asian education: parents are only "adjusting" their own property by hitting their children's body, and the police never takes care about it unless it has caused a death. In the old times,  parents had the power to order their children to die (父要子死，子不得不死)， and even cutting your hair without your parents' permission was a crime.

Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.

[sylvannus]

Yes! Yes yes yes I've seen that so many times! On Chinese forums I always hear people talking about 人妖 (slang for female transsexuals, literally means human demon) and 变性人 (transsexuals, literally change sex person) having shortened lifespans. I know that Nong Poy (a very beautiful and well known Thai transsexual woman) has a lot of fans in China, her 贴吧 has so many fans, but a lot of them seem to not know much about transgender people. They always say things like, "She's so beautiful, it's a shame she was born in the wrong body, because taking hormones shortens your life span significantly."

Yes, some Chinese students have called me human demon on my back. Not on face because it is illegal in Australia, but I always know it.

How about parents? Their first reaction to my coming out text was:" no you will be discharged by university and deported by the Australian government!" After I took a week or so to prove them that it is absolutely impossible to discriminate LGBT in this way in Australia, they began to believe I was not serious and "naive, impulsive, crazy". Then I suggested them to visit any of the local psychologists, and they no longer say I was crazy, but began to show me how hard life will be if I go through transition, and their disappointment. My mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that! Do you know how much effort we have made, how much difficulties we have experienced to bring you up, to educate you a decent man? We never had any entertainment, we never had any enjoyment; all was devoted to you! Are you going to repay us, repay our white hair and decades of hard-working by becoming a human demon?" My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, and never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon; we don't want to be that kind of famous."

Luckily, these were not face-to-face talks; they were online chats. If they have been face-to-face talks, for several of the times they would have ended up by my father swinging his fist and I flee from the house. However, my parents must be masters in emotional manipulation; they can always accurately hit my weakest point in a few words and make me depressed for days.

Mon and dad actually believe I am totally destroying my life in madness. Mother complained a few days ago that because of me, both of she and my father have gone into tears for numerous times. Now they feel so depressed that they are not feeling healthy and have resigned from their jobs. Thus they will have a rather low income and they will cut off any support to me. I feel so sorry for them feeling sick because of me. My mom asked me to pending my transition, stop medication, and only crossdress in private so that I can avoid discrimination for my career life, until I make a big fortune or retire... Several of my TG friends agree with her, but I feel reluctant to accept.

[Natkat]

its very  sad to read of all the storys, but I keep hope in that things will get better by time for most caises,
in few caises it can get worse but I hope by efford it turns the rights ways.

to look back in time from the gay people the rights have grow extremly on the years, now its trans* peoples turn to gain rights.

currently im reading "dont dry tears without glowers" (torka aldrig tårar utan hänska) it take place about the same time as the movie MILK which also is a good movie. it's very inspiring thinking how these are only a few years back yet there happent so much in Sweden and many European countrsy as well as US. in MILK the whole political thing is very up in Torka inta tårar, its more about HIV and the emotional aspect on how "homophilia" have been so horrible and unaccepting while now I would say most people can accept homosexualety exept from few ignorent people.

in the serie its pretty much just about the HIVthing, which also the main focus in the book, but yet something I really love is all the small details and facts on how things have developed. theres real places and sentences and decribtions of things who have happents and been said, I would hope years in the future we could look back the same way and have gained alot more rights in many countrys for transgenders wellbeing.

[Natkat]

the ubuntu thing is pretty interesting,
I notice for middle east imigrents its often hard to come out,
one thing is sure the religious thing of being a muslim, but I dont find many people in my country to be very religious and even if there muslim I still feel theres also many people who are surportive. But I think the connection is the main reason why its hard because many of them have a good connection between each other and it somehow break if one of them is gay, bi, or trans, pretty much same way as in ubuntu.
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[spacial]

My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon;, we don't want to be that kind of famous."

I've heard similar threats made to children by parents in other cultures. Often to coerce them into marriage, but also education and so on.

Let me say, if such a thing were ever said to any western person I think almost anyone would say that the parents clearly don't have any feelings for you at all and you should leave their sorry asses.

You're better than that.

That's individualism.

But as I said, it's up to you to decide what your own priorities are.

[FTMDiaries]

Yes, some Chinese students have called me human demon on my back. Not on face because it is illegal in Australia, but I always know it.

In addition, my mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that!"

I'm so sorry about what your family have said to you; it's a very difficult situation to be in. All this talk of 'demons' reminds me in a way of the Bruce Lee story; I seem to recall that his father was obsessed with an imaginary demon that he thought was stalking his family, so he gave Bruce a female birthname to try to hide him from the 'demon'.

But I just wanted to say thank you so much for your post in which you described Chinese culture. It was very enlightening and it inspired me to write about my experiences of African culture. Thank you for sharing.

[FTMDiaries]

I guess this is what it must be like[well similar] for many trans-people who are brought up in any close knit communities...What comes to mind are the close knit religious communities in the US...

I'm sure some US members here can relate...

My thoughts exactly. I didn't want to say so at the time (because I wanted to concentrate on African culture) but the sort of excommunication that occurs with LGBT people in some African communities could be described as causing a similar type of pain to the excommunication from some religious groups. I don't want to single out any particular religion, but as an example I have ex-Mormon friends who have been utterly shunned by their families and communities because of their so-called 'lifestyle choices' and the pain & sense of loss they feel is very similar to the type I described.

And dare I add... there are some FtMs who previously identified as lesbian before transitioning and were very active in the lesbian community. After transitioning, some have described feeling shut out of the lesbian community with which they used to strongly identify and they have described a similar loss.

Perhaps this type of group behaviour is simply a normal part of human nature?

[ThetisnFurter]

Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.

That's really awkward. What's the logic behind that? Why would a 50 years old person need his parents' permission? What if their parents are dead?

[sylvannus]

That's really awkward. What's the logic behind that? Why would a 50 years old person need his parents' permission? What if their parents are dead?

If parents have passed away, then the child is free. Otherwise, a parents' permission is always needed. Anyway, it is not a law, though all hospitals follow that rule (there's definitely no law regarding transsexualism). However, they kind of know for most TG folks it is impossible to get a signature from angry parents, they just do not seriously check its authenticity.