Yeson voice feminization surgery

[MeganChristine]

It really is that easy, today a friend said that I lacked the raspiness now. It's softer. Before it sounded like I was constantly in the verge of getting a cold. With other words, I'm right here I used to be when I had to push my larynx up... Within doing it anymore! Wooohoo!

[Livvykins]

It really is that easy, today a friend said that I lacked the raspiness now. It's softer. Before it sounded like I was constantly in the verge of getting a cold. With other words, I'm right here I used to be when I had to push my larynx up... Within doing it anymore! Wooohoo!

Yay! Really pleased for you   I can't wait for the raspiness to disappear... I think I'll be the same as you soon.  To be honest, when I do try and push my larynx up now, I go all squeaky and unnatural sounding... it sounds a lot better when I just relax and just speak normally.  Which is exactly what I always wanted Whoop!

[anjaq]

Ok, this really is interesting. I am not even sure I know how to lower my larynx without getting it strained anymore, it somehow got stuck there a bit. It does not change the pitch too much though - maybe 20-30 Hz. As long as you do not sound male in resonance when you lower the larynx, I guess there is no need to push it into a squeaky voice. As long as you do not have to use the sequaky to sound female in resonance and timbre - I war talking to my GP today about voice and she thinks my voice is quite good and clear when I drop the pitch to what comes out naturally and not raise it. If I raise it, I often sound more unnatural and forced, so I try to avoid it if I can now. I still am not that comfy with that deep 140-150 Hz voice that is the result then, going down as low as 125 in some words. Thats clearly not in the normal female range. Considereing going up in pitch results in a false or forced or strained sound more easily for me, a VFS would probably be able to solve that, I am now just confused about how to make a female resonance or timbre post op. If you do not raise the larynx anymore, how do you make it so that you do not sound like a high pitched guy - I always thought, resonance is the key to making a voice sound female, not pitch.

[MeganChristine]

Data from the pre-op analysis at Yeson for those who are interested, bet you are Anja

[anjaq]

Intersting - what are the first two ones - two differntly pitched voices? Dis you have to speak at the lowest and highest frequencies you can or was it just you reading something and the min and max frequencies are the ones occuring in that?  A min of 90 Hz seems awfully low for something to occur in a normal text - I can only go there if I deliberately lower my voice. In speech it never goes that deep except maybe for the odd light cough or "hmm"
But for a test of vocal range, the range seems rather small - just 2 octaves... maybe you can say a bit more what was done in these tests

[MeganChristine]

No text, this was to test your voice from the lowest to the highest? And the frequency you normally produce. Statistic A is natural, whilst statistic B is trained voice.

The last image is where you feel most comfortable, on a even consistent tone. This was to find jitter and breakups. Which eventually led to the fact that I needed a Botox shot

The tests was the aaaa eeeee ooo's )

[anjaq]

Oh ok. So your range was only 82 Hz to 390 Hz? Interesting. Maybe it will increase at the upper end now with the vocal exercises. My range was also 83 at the lowest but went up to 800 or more in the upper range. But this is that "flagolet"/"whistle register", I guess. It is of coourse not available for speaking - the only thing it is good for to me it seems is to puzzle my voice therapist

I see - the lower graph basically is an atomatic analysis and if that shows vocal tremor, you get Botox. Hmm. So one should  be careful to make clean sounds there if one wants to avoid botoxing

The other ones - you basically were doing your vocal range with vowels there and then you had to do the vowels in your normal speaking range, but no reading? The Spectrograms there are thus basically just vowels? I find it hard to test my voice base frequency without saying some words, but I guess it could work.

[MeganChristine]

There was allot of tests done.
- Vowels
- How clean you could keep a tone
- How long you were able to hold a tone
- How long your were able to make a tone before you ran out of air
- X-rays
- Highspeed camera making a slowmo video of your vocalfolds to see how they connected
- Reading the rainbow passage with normal voice and trained voice

The tests were extensive, the data was extensive.

[Livvykins]

There was allot of tests done.
- Vowels
- How clean you could keep a tone
- How long you were able to hold a tone
- How long your were able to make a tone before you ran out of air
- X-rays
- Highspeed camera making a slowmo video of your vocalfolds to see how they connected
- Reading the rainbow passage with normal voice and trained voice

The tests were extensive, the data was extensive.

Yep, a lot of tests... Most of which made me gag!

[anjaq]

Yes - I have done these tests in part here at the phoniater. Nice slowmo video and then all the rest like how long and how clear one can make a vowel. how loud one can shout, low to high notes singing, reading some odd sentences starting with vowels and reading a passage... seems similar to what I know

[MeganChristine]

@livvykins: haha! Yeah, it's the first time someone ever has pulled my tongue and stuffed a metal rod with a stroboscope in the back of my mouth.

The nasal camera was no problem at all :p kind of a funny sensation when being numbed in the middle of the face :p

[anjaq]

That camera in the mouth - indeed. I was wondering if this really can give a realistic view. Like when she said then that I have a hypertension dysphonia - I wondered if the hypertension may be because of a metal rod being shoved into my throat - But I guess not.

[MeganChristine]

Update:

Went to the doc today to get an update on the ongoing healing:
- Still some edema present in the vocal folds, and therefore the pitch has not increased that much yet
- The post chink I had is now very small, and should not be posing a problem
- Healing as expected and the suture area looks really nice.

[Teslagirl]

Pretty expensive I suppose, still less than Dr Thomas if my memory is correct.

Flight from LAX- 900usd
Surgery- 7400usd
10 day hotel in Myeongdong- 1200usd

Luckily food is pretty inexpensive here, as is the shopping

Jenny, if you're still watching this thread and are not too tired of answering questions... Were these costs for one person or two? Thanks.

[Rachelicious]

Happy first-post for me!

After spending what has to be the better part of the past several days reading through every page, thinking about it throughout the days and absorbing an overwhelming amount of information to ponder, reflect upon, and take to heart, I've come to realize this is what's been missing for me and why I've had such a crushing anxiety condition & depression in recent years.

Previously I'd written off the risks & potential gains of voice surgery as too great and too scant to even consider it. But I've still felt not myself. It's always something I'm trying to compensate for. As a trained singer I've mastered the resonance, inflection, and singing capability I have, but unfortunately it takes unnatural effort, and when it comes to speaking the only way my voice sounds truly good is if I try to sound like I'm narrating for NPR or speaking calmly in soft tones. I cannot sound ok yelling, coughing, using squeak register (harsh falsetto breaks around E4-G4) or exiting that narrow range.

My voice passes great in these aspects and can be quite sexy at its best, but it becomes tired quickly and I end up with a limited expressive range. I often sound much more tired, drug-addicted, and older than fits my personality, emotional state, and behavior; being an inherently aware & empathic person, I can't help but notice constantly how it affects me socially. I even lost the will to continue my career largely because that is one area where my voice's limitations just really showed. I cringe hearing myself on evaluation videos (pitch often sits around C3-E3.)

Learning about Yeson and hearing the voices & reflections you, friends, have posted... this has been as a fog clearing under the radiant sun. My enthusiasm and hope are returning! I'm so happy that I don't have to give up on my dream of sounding the way I should.

I'm going to try and get an appointment scheduled right away - soonest I could probably do is in that week or two that college students get in between finals and the winter holidays. It sounds like a chilly time to visit. But it sounds like a breeze.

Surely I'll have some questions as things begin to materialize. This is the first thing on Susan's that has really made me feel called to participate in the discussion. Tytytyty for a very +1'able post!

~Rachel

[anjaq]

Thats great to hear Rachel. You have about the same speaking range tha tI often have then. C3-E3. And it sounds like for you it has been a while since you changed your voice (and a lot other than that ) - probably also a decoare or so? You are teaching as well? two weeks off for the students. that a short period, hardly enough to properly rest. I am lucky and our students have about 6 weeks break .

[Rachelicious]

Yes I've had ~8 years to really work on the voice (GCS exceptionally early in that time-frame, as well.) Voice was one of my first priorities. I frequently speak all over the G3-C4+ range, but because that's with effort the tone quality & resonance don't hold up in discussion at length. I can then keep resonance / tone quality passable to androgynous in the relaxed voice, at the sacrifice of not being able to vary pitch in a natural-sounding way.

I have no qualms about how I sound singing, the "falsetto" is very pure compared to counter-tenors I've heard (my chest voice singing sounds too male for me to accept.) In a classical style, my voice is feminine and powerful between ~E4 to ~F5 - which if that doesn't improve or get easier from surgery, I'd be fine. It sounds like those here have at least had not had negatives regarding singing, anyway.

Total vocal extreme range is G2-C3 up to A5 or possibly squeaking slightly higher, each depending on the day. Pardon to those who like frequencies (since it's what the docs use!) but I'm just more familiar with voices in terms of musical notes / register.

I haven't been teaching in years. Well, substituting, but I can give my voice any rest it needs. I'm actually back to study myself. It was odd looking like I could be a student but sounding (and performing!) like a veteran teach

Trach shave beforehand is one thing I've considered, but I really want a good voice first of all, and Yeson does recommend against it. The thing is, my laryngeal prominence is sort of borderline with what can be found in many cis-women (Kristen Stewart, etc) , and the part I'd actually care about reducing (cricoid cartilage) is probably that which would have the highest risk of weakening the anchors on my vocal folds! But I tend to think even those who gender police on such grounds have the ground crumble beneath them when it's accompanied by a very feminine voice, as opposed to vice versa :3

Ty for the warm welcome!

[anjaq]

Ah yes. it sounds very familiar except I do not sing at all - I am only teaching in a limited way, but still, I fee a bit nervous there about my voice , especially in practical work outdoors when I have to concentrate on 100 different things than voice. If the trach shave is not needed, why bother. If everything else fits and that part is borderline, leave it and rather get a good voice and not have a scar at the place, even if it is hidden, it still is there for the gender police to see - And IMO it would be more of a red flag than a borderline laryngal prominence.

[Rachelicious]

Ah yes. it sounds very familiar except I do not sing at all - I am only teaching in a limited way, but still, I fee a bit nervous there about my voice , especially in practical work outdoors when I have to concentrate on 100 different things than voice. If the trach shave is not needed, why bother. If everything else fits and that part is borderline, leave it and rather get a good voice and not have a scar at the place, even if it is hidden, it still is there for the gender police to see - And IMO it would be more of a red flag than a borderline laryngal prominence.

Totally understandable. The risk of having a voice lowered from trach shave that then cannot be fixed, combined with the scar (I'm slender, so zero fat folds in which to hide it) just outweighs the potential gains.

I empathize with you in work, too. I'm sure having to speak at a louder than medium volume for very long, or speak/yell loudly at all, could get me clocked easily. And like you said, it's always something that requires concentration. I actually listened to some recordings of my voice recently.

They're not bad, certainly decent in most regards since I've put my heart, soul, and warfare into controlling this instrument, but my voice definitely gravitates towards ~150hz on its own. I can make that sound feminine. If Yeson didn't exist, I'd probably make do.

But the central issue for me is it's constantly me "vs" my voice - if I want to say something or express something vocally, I have to calculate the chance it will sound okay and gamble. Repeatedly, each day. And for me, that's compromising my personality, self-expression, and ultimately my life based on a characteristic that should simply "be" rather than having such power over me. I would love for my voice to finally not have the capacity to get me clocked and instead reflect what I feel inside.

Also Jenny what you describe as the division between chest voice & head voice or the 'break' going away... just sounds AMAZING. I struggle in that area, cracking like an adolescent -.-

Emotions are rolling. Gosh is that an understatement. I had everything in the world to do today besides focus mostly on more such research. Hopefully I'll be able to get the process rolling too in the next couple weeks!

[anjaq]

They're not bad, certainly decent in most regards since I've put my heart, soul, and warfare into controlling this instrument, but my voice definitely gravitates towards ~150hz on its own. I can make that sound feminine. If Yeson didn't exist, I'd probably make do

Yes, same here except I have given up the warfare and just settled for now to have that 150 Hz and try my best to make it sound feminine. The downside of course is if I have VFS, people will probably notice if pitch goes up from there. I made it through it for the past 15 years, but discovering this option has gotten good enough to actually consider it really is tempting

But the central issue for me is it's constantly me "vs" my voice - if I want to say something or express something vocally, I have to calculate the chance it will sound okay and gamble. Repeatedly, each day. And for me, that's compromising my personality, self-expression, and ultimately my life based on a characteristic that should simply "be" rather than having such power over me. I would love for my voice to finally not have the capacity to get me clocked and instead reflect what I feel inside.

Exactly - The liberation would be the greatest part. I do not really expect to "pass" better that much, but just to have the safety and security that it cannot go wrong, to stop humming before answering a phone or coughing before speaking to the cashier at the supermarket to chek if pitch and resonance are all right - this is a constant reminder of being different. One feels - even if it is not so - as if one is just acting. I am not acting to be like a woman, I am a woman and I dont want to feel like I am an act. This probably is really a huge temptation for me to have a surgery.

Also Jenny what you describe as the division between chest voice & head voice or the 'break' going away... just sounds AMAZING. I struggle in that area, cracking like an adolescent -.-

This would be huge! I have learned how to mostly avoid that cracking and breaking and can do slides over it and also use some of that part for speaking single sylabils, but it takes some twisting of the voice. it is not easy. if that would be eased and the voice would feel less "locked" in th elwoer parts but can flow more easily upwards, it would be a uge improvement, but I think in part this will always be training. Some people even seem to get locked in the lower range after VFS and then think it was not a success, so it seems to be at least in part a psychological or training thing and to the other part a surgery result.

Hopefully I'll be able to get the process rolling too in the next couple weeks!

Good for you. You are making it a lot easier for yourself than me, thinking about this forever and wanting to make sure it really is working. Well plus I dont have the money and the student-free gap until February. I gues sif I had the money and time for it now, my decision would be faster