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My gender issue and my depression. Correlation or causation?

Started by Ultimus, May 11, 2013, 10:16:27 PM

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Ultimus

*cross posting from ->-bleeped-<- /asktransgender/*

Cliffs (nobody likes walls of text):

-Have had a gender issue since earliest memories

-Was extremely happy person up until late teens

-Started suffering from severe unexplainable depression.

-In this case, depression for me doesn't mean I'm sad or crying, it means I have no interests or hobbies, that I can't enjoy anything, and nothing is cool or exciting. Life and the universe are pointless for me. It's really bad and at its worst all I can do is lie still.

-There is nothing in my life that could be causing me to be depressed (at least to this extent) unless it is biological/chemical or my gender issue.

-Saw a psychiatrist for both gender issue and depression in 2009. Since then I have been on ten different anti-depressants/anxieties. There effectiveness has ranged from zero to moderate. At best, I'll be content and can enjoy life for a couple of months, until things revert back. Psychiatrist claims "you're a tough case." He wants to do electric shock, but I know I'm not crazy, I know I'm sane and that I'm not mentally ill.

-Have seen several therapists including a gender therapist. None of them have the answer (i.e. should I transition / am I transgender?)

-I live from pill to pill hoping the next one will be the one to bring me out of my depression. I'm still waiting.

-2013 and I've been screwing around on pills and therapists for 4 years now. Still no interest in life and the universe.

-My current therapist claims my depression is chemical and that I would be depressed as a man or a woman in his opinion.

-There is a definite correlation between my depression and my gender issue. No one can deny that. But is it a causation? I'm a scientific person and I try to approach this as scientifically as possible. I "ask the experts" (psychologists/psychiatrists) as well as others online, but at the end of the day, only I can know if I'm transgender, and that I don't know.

-My question. How do I ever overcome this depression that has eluded psychiatrists and therapists alike, without result to electric shock or other extreme measures for mentally ill people.

-How do I know if I'm transgender (which I probably am) for sure and if I need to transition, and how will I know if it will cure my depression? What if I'm just doomed to chemical/biological depression?
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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Ultimus on May 11, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
How do I know if I'm transgender (which I probably am) for sure and if I need to transition, and how will I know if it will cure my depression? What if I'm just doomed to chemical/biological depression?

You just answered your own question. People who aren't trans don't need to think about whether they are or not and especially not for as long as you have been pondering the question. No amount of pills is going to "cure" this. Well, maybe one lol but not the kind your taking.

Quote from: Ultimus on May 11, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
How do I ever overcome this depression that has eluded psychiatrists and therapists alike, without result to electric shock or other extreme measures for mentally ill people.

Uh, you need to find a new doctor like yesterday. Electric shock therapy? REALLY??? Is this still 2013? Any docotr who employs these methods should be brought up on charges. And especially for being trans. I wish I knew your doctors name I would report him right now for trying to subject any trans person to these barbaric methods.
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Ultimus

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 11, 2013, 11:20:27 PM
You just answered your own question. People who aren't trans don't need to think about whether they are or not and especially not for as long as you have been pondering the question. No amount of pills is going to "cure" this. Well, maybe one lol but not the kind your taking.

Uh, you need to find a new doctor like yesterday. Electric shock therapy? REALLY??? Is this still 2013? Any docotr who employs these methods should be brought up on charges. And especially for being trans. I wish I knew your doctors name I would report him right now for trying to subject any trans person to these barbaric methods.

Wait, just so I don't give the wrong impression...the doctor suggested Electric Shock Therapy for my depression, NOT because I'm contemplating my gender lol.
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ford

Hey Ultimus,

I relate. Unexplainable depression, other than gender issues, no earthly reason I can think of for it. Discovering the link between gender stuff and the depression was a little lightbulb going off. I'm actively transitioning now, so I can't say with certainty that this will fix the depression completely and for good, but the change in how I feel so far is astounding. I finally feel happy. I have a long ways to go, but just to be heading in the right direction has cleared so much of that life-sucking darkness from my heart.

So for me, I think that the gender issue caused the depression. I just wish I'd figured that out ten years ago...
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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kelly_aus

Quote from: Ultimus on May 11, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
-My question. How do I ever overcome this depression that has eluded psychiatrists and therapists alike, without result to electric shock or other extreme measures for mentally ill people.

I'm no expert, I can only relate my own experience. I was depressed for most of my life. Took all kinds of drugs, prescribed and illegal, none of which did much except make me a raging drug addict. Coming out and beginning my transition brought some improvement. About the time I started hormones, it all stopped, I found myself a fairly functional human being - which was a much different challenge.

Quote-How do I know if I'm transgender (which I probably am) for sure and if I need to transition, and how will I know if it will cure my depression? What if I'm just doomed to chemical/biological depression?

I can't tell you if you are trans or not, only you can answer that - and I think you know the answer anyway. Will transition cure your depression? No idea, what I do know is that my level of depression lifted when I came out and started transitioning. And it got better as time went on. I think it's coincidence that it completely lifted at around the time I started hormones. I believe my depression was caused my inability to accept myself as a woman.

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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Ultimus on May 11, 2013, 11:47:09 PM
Wait, just so I don't give the wrong impression...the doctor suggested Electric Shock Therapy for my depression, NOT because I'm contemplating my gender lol.

Oh well then shock away. What? Doesn't matter it is an anachronism and anyone who even contemplates it should have their license revoked and be brought up on charges. Where I live you would be run out of town. You need to find a new doctor.
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Beth Andrea

Actually, electric shock therapy got a bad name (and deservedly so) when it first came out, and for the same reason lithium got a bad name: the dr's didn't know when, or how much, to prescribe.
This was back in like the 50s and 60s, iirc. Modern psych med protocols include both lithium and est, but at much milder doses/applications.

Now re: the OP: I am similarly afflicted with severe depression, but once I realized I was trans (but not knowing "which came first--the TS or the depression") and getting on hrt and even transitioning to full-time...my depression is still here, but recovery from episodes is usually measured in hours, not weeks or months. Certainly in my case it was an aggravating factor, but it is not a cure-all for depression.

YMMV
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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Joanna Dark

Well I stand corrected. Still disagree. In any event, I looked it up and it is for severe cases where the person is basically catatonic. Given the OP posted on a forum, the OP by definition is not catatonic and not in need of shock therapy. Maybe leeches will work jk lol The Op can either accept being trans or not. That is one way many have helped, if not cured, their depression. Don't know anything about the OP so couldn't say.
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calico

E S T ranks up there with a lobotomy , both of which they still do!!! :o Seriously I would probably tell the Dr. recommending it, you would only consider it if they were to do the dirty with a horse in front off a group of nun's .. lets see crazy now.. :P ::)
"To be one's self, and unafraid whether right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformity."― Irving Wallace  "Before you can be anything, you have to be yourself. That's the hardest thing to find." -  E.L. Konigsburg
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Horizon

I've been going through quite a few of the same things recently (thankfully, no recommendations for electric shock therapy!!!), so quite a bit of my time has been spent questioning what it really takes to be transgender.  In my opinion, we all make it much more complex than it needs to be.  Are you unhappy with your current gender?  Do you think you would be happier as the opposite in terms of outward expression, social responses, and personal acceptance?  If you can truthfully answer yes to both, I don't see why there needs to be any more to it, and, even if you're unsure, can taking a chance at lifelong happiness really be any worse than remaining still?  Just my two cents, of course.
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JoanneB

I am a scientific type myself having spent almost 40 years now being paid for doing that as a living. I can tell you I basically knew since I was about 4-5 that I was different. Back in the age of dinosaurs being trans* was greatly discouraged. I tried to be "normal" growing up doing normal guy stuff. As I got older the dysphoria got stronger. I tried twice in my twenties experimenting with transition. Twice I stopped in the quest to just try to be "normal"

Fast forward 30 years of "normal". I lost my soul, my life, my joys, my passions. My only function in life was to wakeup, eat, work, repeat. When I lost the only thing that gave me some pleasure, my job as an engineer, I was devestated. The one that followed all I did was be et another paper-pusher in a multi-billion dollar corp, not the hero I always was. The resultant major depression caused me to reflect deeply upon my life and how I got to that place.

The answer, being a trans* was the most obvious root cause. So I sought out support in the backwoods where I was living. I needed to take on the demon once and for all, not dance around it. After a few months I finally found a support group. The first meeting floored me. OK... it may be a lark, try another. THe next was the same result. By the time I was attending my third I knew for sure I needed to be there.

About a year after that, and some time spent with a therapist mainly for other life issues, I was venturing out in the real world as the real me. I once again was feeling alive. Felt joy, happiness. Even some passion as my inner 60's radical was tapped to help with local trans rights issues.

What caused which? I don't know nor care. Western science/medicine tends to insist upon a single causality, I don't. My life till then became what it was for several reasons between early childhood and adult life. Several things I know changed about me to help turn it around.

What does matter is the result. Finally being accept, even embrace, being trans, loosing the shame and much of the guilt, gaining some self esteem, even some self worth were the results of very hard work and gallons of tears.

Also, loosing the Black & White thinking! (still working on that) Again, the result of a single causality thinking and reasoning. "I am depressed because I am trans, therefore I need to transition to be happy" That is B&W thinking. I have not transitioned to full time. Partly from fear, primarily from the percieved realities of that decision. There is a solution in the middle ground that is working for me.

The only way you will know for yourself is to experiment. You don't need a hall pass from a doctor for that. Start be acknowledging that you may be trans, find some local support groups, if possible. (it may take a few before you find one that is right for you) Ask a lot of questions, especially of yourself. Be open and honest to yourself. Be open minded to what you hear from others. Also don't expect one universal response. THere aren't any to these sort of questions. Everyone's experience is different.
.          (Pile Driver)  
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                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Beth Andrea

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 12, 2013, 12:59:49 AM
Well I stand corrected. Still disagree. In any event, I looked it up and it is for severe cases where the person is basically catatonic. Given the OP posted on a forum, the OP by definition is not catatonic and not in need of shock therapy. Maybe leeches will work jk lol The Op can either accept being trans or not. That is one way many have helped, if not cured, their depression. Don't know anything about the OP so couldn't say.

Leeches are also still used in modern medicine...

QuoteUse of Leeches in modern medicine

The use of leeches in modern medicine made its comeback in the 1980s after years of decline, with the advent of microsurgeries, such as plastic and reconstructive surgeries. In operations such as these, problematic venous congestion can arise due to inefficient venous drainage. Sometimes, because of the technical difficulties in forming an anastomosis of a vein, no attempt is made to reattach a venous supply to a flap at all. This condition is known as venous insufficiency. If this congestion is not cleared up quickly, the blood will clot, arteries that bring the tissues their necessary nourishment will become plugged, and the tissues will die. To prevent this, leeches are applied to a congested flap, and a certain amount of excess blood is consumed before the leech falls away. The wound will also continue to bleed for a while due to the anticoagulant hirudin in the leeches' saliva. The combined effect is to reduce the swelling in the tissues and to promote healing by allowing fresh, oxygenated blood to reach the area.[32]

The active anticoagulant component of leech saliva is a small protein, hirudin. Discovery and isolation of this protein led to a method of producing it by recombinant technology. Recombinant hirudin is available to physicians as an intravenous anticoagulant preparation for injection, particularly useful for patients who are allergic to or cannot tolerate heparin.

QuoteOriginally posted by Calico:

Seriously I would probably tell the Dr. recommending it, you would only consider it if they were to do the dirty with a horse in front off a group of nun's .. lets see crazy now..

I've used up my googling allotment for today, I'd almost bet there's a porn site that has this already....LOL  ;) (fwiw, in my neck of the woods there's been at least 2 animal-keeping places (I won't call them "farms") that rented out the animals, including horses, for humans to have sex with...yes, it's illegal and they were busted for it, but apparently there is enough of a market that there's competition among the buyers of said activities... :( Although, I don't know if nuns were involved...)
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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muuu

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Northern Jane

Quote from: JoanneB on May 12, 2013, 07:08:03 AM
I am a scientific type myself having spent almost 40 years now being paid for doing that as a living. I can tell you I basically knew since I was about 4-5 that I was different. Back in the age of dinosaurs being trans* was greatly discouraged.....

No kidding!

I was fine up until public school. Life before that was not "gender segregated" and I was happy. Gender segregation in public school (1955) just confused me because I was not where I was supposed to be and the thought of using the boys washroom was very disturbing! By 13 (1962) I was in open rebellion against my supposed sex but nobody ever heard of transsexualism back then so I was considered delusional, mentally unbalanced! Shock therapy was one of the options proposed to my mother, the other was forced testosterone therapy, and either of them would have driven me to suicide!

I was able to find a doctor to start HRT at 17 (before I was of legal age) and that helped but I sunk into a deeper and deeper depression. I could never be sure if the depression was because of my "gender dysphoria" but the depression got so bad that I was seriously suicidal by my early 20s. When SRS first became possible, I KNEW I had to try it or die. I had surgery and my depression went away! Life was grand and I was happy.

That was nearly 40 years ago and although life was never a walk in the park, I was much better able to handle the bad stuff.

I don't know if you can ever know for sure if the depression is a result of being trans but when the depression gets bad enough, you will have to jump and see what happens.

***HUG***
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Lorri Kat

Ultimus..  when you ask "-How do I know if I'm transgender (which I probably am) for sure and if I need to transition"  do you mean transsexual instead of transgender since transgender is an umbrella term that covers a WIDE spectrum from DQ to TS?   I belive you are transgender, this from having read your other threads, but only you can figure out where you fall with in that spectrum and thus determin your best course of action.   :)   
=^..^=
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Ltl89

I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but Electric shock therapy is usually best avoided and only should be considered if all other options have failed.  I think there are many more options available that are less risky that should be given a shot at first.  In your case, you have tried multiple medications and they have not worked for you.  So, your doctor may not be treating this the wrong way, but I would see if there are any other options available for you to pursue.  Yet, I have to disclose the fact that I am not a medical professional and discourage you from making any major medical decisions based on my post. 

I can't tell you with any certainty whether your depression is fully caused from your GID or not.  However, iif you suffer from GID,  it's possible that some of your depression could be related.  Still, that isn't a guarantee. I know that my current depression is related to my GID, but I know that I have been sad and down for other reasons as well.  While gender issues may very well play a big role in our interactions and perceptions of the world, it doesn't account for everything.  It really depends on the individual and things differ on a case by case basis.  Personally, I wouldn't expect transitioning to solve all of my problems in life.  I imagine that it can make things better by giving you the strength to have more confidence, be less shy, be more happy in general, etc..  Yet, I don't think it has the ability to solve major depression that is unrelated to GID.

You have been to gender therapists, correct?  What have they told you?  While they can't tell you if transitioning is right or wrong, they can give you some input about current condition.

Sorry if this isn't helpful.  I am wishing you the very best. 
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Theo

I actually went through a full 160 session psychotherapy (psychoanalysis) for depression, taking SSRIs in parallel for 2/3 of it. Did I feel better afterwards? Functional maybe. Fun fact was that I still suffered the occasional bout of depression, but they were no longer debilitating. So much for root cause finding. Oh, and gender came up ... once ... in 160 sessions, after I mentioned that I was a girl for part of one of my dreams. When questioned I said that it bore no relevance to the content of the dream (it didn't), and the therapist subsequently ignored it.  :o

After I realised I was trans, it allowed me to confront depressive episodes with a simple "well, that might be my GID". It sounds banal, but the fact that everything suddenly just fit made my mood swings a lot more bearable. Knowing the reason why things are happening can be very liberating.

That happy bit aside, whether or not you have GID is indeed something only you can decide. As much as I was hoping for it, my gender therapist (not the same person as my original one, for obvious reasons  >:() was unable to answer that question for me. Over time I found the answer inside me, a conviction that slowly grew, becoming more and more solid by the day. The thing to remember is to always listen to that small voice in the corner of your mind asking "are you really sure?" though -- it will become quiet at some point, but do harken it. Even if you have started HRT, and that voice pops up after a few weeks because you feel that something just isn't right, then listen and consider. This is not a decision to be trifled with, and one where no one has the right to interfere with your choice of continuing or stopping. There is no shame in saying "actually maybe HRT isn't the right thing for me after all" after 8 weeks of popping pills (or longer, or shorter). This is only for you, so you get to make the decisions.  :)

P.S. on the point of electroshock therapy, I very much recommend http://www.ted.com/talks/sherwin_nuland_on_electroshock_therapy.html -- most certainly changed my point of view, which had previously been based more on One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest rather than anything else. ;)
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