Non-gendered titles

[Doc]

When I was a kid I was dismayed to discover that the reason female officers on Star Trek are often called "Mister" was not that the new improved wiser and more decent humanity of the twenty-fourth century had disempowered gender and replaced all gendered titles with a de-masculinized 'Mister' but because it's just naval tradition.

Wikipedia mentions androgyne and genderqueer people requesting the use of a non-gendered title, Mx. to replace Mr., Mrs., Miss, and Ms. I rarely pass as male and don't expect to get Mistered, though I'd like to. I hate "Missus," "Miss," and "Mizz." (In fact, when I read 'Ms.' anything, I think, "Manuscript?")

The trouble with Mx. is that it is unpronouncable. I want to be addressed by a title of respect, not just have it appear on my mail. Mx? Depending on what imaginary vowel you insert, you get "Max Doc" (People would think I am claiming a new first name, not a title) or "Mix Doc" (Not so bad, but it seems to have too much meaning -- instead of being a non-gendered title it seems to say, "mix of man and woman" Doc) "Mux Doc" (A type of online RPG) or "Mex Doc" (Well, maybe, but around here, that'd be "Mexican Doc" and besides, it rhymes too well with 'Keks,' a Scotsman's underwear.)

Any other non-gendered titles you know of, or have invented?

[lilith]

Female officers on Star Trek are called "sir," not "mister." You got the rest of it right though. I like Star Trek but it really is full of all kinds of racism and sexism (and i'm not even talking about the original series, i mean the newer ones).

I dislike titles in general and outright refuse to use them. A word can't make a person respectful.

[Pica Pica]

It seems to me that 'sir' can only be said in a whiny manner and calling someone as relatively young as me 'mr' always comes out as patronising.

Wouldn't mind being called Miss...but I think that's because it sounds like they would miss me, and Mx sounds too much like a disease. Myxymatosis perhaps.

[Seshatneferw]

There are two different customs here. The first one is to address any naval officer below the rank of captain (or commander, as the case may be) as 'Mr. Such-and-so'; this dates back to the time when ships had both a captain (in military command) and a master (in charge of actually sailing the ship). The form of address was extended to other junior officers as they appeared, and it also spread from the Royal Navy to the other English-speaking navies, as these came to be. The second custom, of course, is the pan-military one of addressing a superior officer as 'Sir'. My understanding is that both of these have female forms ('Ms. Such-and-so' and 'Ma'am'), but unfortunately my own experiences with these matters were entirely in a non-English environment.

  Nfr

[Doc]

Quite as Seshatneferw says. And female officers on Star Trek are indeed addressed with things like, "Yes, sir," and "Arm the photon torpedoes, Mr. Girl." They are more often addressed by their specific titles-of-rank than male officers (we all know that Uhuru is a lieutenant, but you've got to work out Scotty's rank by reading his sleeves) but they don't have feminine titles/addresses. With the exception of Captain Janeway on the rather pathetic Voyager series, and her preference for "Ma'am" over "Sir" is addressed in an onscreen conversation wherein it is revealed that this is quirky of her.

I dislike titles in general and outright refuse to use them. A word can't make a person respectful.

So what do you do? Honestly, I'd like titles if the wrong ones didn't keep getting applied to me. I certainly find it forward when I am addressed by my legal first name by the grocery-store clerk. Calling me "Mr. Doc" will not make anybody respectful, but it will spare me the disrespect of somebody expressing a false and unwelcome familiarity.

Hehe, Pica Pica. Wasn't it in To Kill a Mockingbird with Miss Maudie saying, "They'll put 'Miss' on my tombstone but I haven't missed a thing," ?

And you're right. Mx does sound disease-like. Or missile-like ("I thought you were a life-sized paper-doll...") We need a different one.

[Pica Pica]

Ms,

Make Ms a many-gendered thing.

[Jonie]

Female officers on Star Trek are called "sir," not "mister." You got the rest of it right though. I like Star Trek but it really is full of all kinds of racism and sexism (and i'm not even talking about the original series, i mean the newer ones).

I dislike titles in general and outright refuse to use them. A word can't make a person respectful.

Seems I remember hearing that a Petty Officer would be called Mister.

[Doc]

I hate Ms. For one, it's pronounced, "Mizzz," which sounds like a horsefly calling me "Miss," or sounds identical to "Miss" depending on the speaker. For two, Ms means 'Manuscript' in my old-fashioned brain. For three, it's crawling with feminine associations that fit me even less than those attached to "Miss."

[Pica Pica]

Well the whole sie hier thing is far to germanic sounding to me, i want to feel a bit more elegant than that.

[Doc]

I agree. Those aren't titles but pronouns, though. I did just remember another title, though, "Per" for "person." So I'd be Per Doc. That's okay, but not elegant either.

[Pica Pica]

Per doesn't really work with people with vowels at the beginning of their first names. Per Alison or Per Adrian, slur into it a little too much.

[lilith]

Quite as Seshatneferw says. And female officers on Star Trek are indeed addressed with things like, "Yes, sir," and "Arm the photon torpedoes, Mr. Girl."

I had to look this up. The only serious reference I found was Star Trek II, where Kirk called Saavik "Mister" several times. Weird, because I've seen that movie a dozen times and never noticed it. I can't find any mentions of it in the later series, though.

So what do you do?

I very rarely address anybody directly unless they're not paying attention to me at all (I've never understood people who insist on addressing each other when it's already incredibly obvious who they're talking to), and when I do have to I usually just use their first name. On the extremely rare occasion that I talk to someone who I consider 'too important' to address by their first name, I would just say something generic like "excuse me." But the last time I did that was probably in middle school.

Honestly, I'd like titles if the wrong ones didn't keep getting applied to me. I certainly find it forward when I am addressed by my legal first name by the grocery-store clerk. Calling me "Mr. Doc" will not make anybody respectful, but it will spare me the disrespect of somebody expressing a false and unwelcome familiarity.

Personally I would take false familiarity over false respect any day. They're only words, anyway.

[Intertween]

Honestly, I think non-gendered titles are needed by society as a whole.

We run into this problem at work when we want to mass produce letters to people from a database that has no title or gender information. In a perfect world I could convey respect without putting anyone off, such as saying
        Please note, Mm. Smith: [or whatever]
instead of
        Please note, Jody Smith:

We also need something like comrade or citizen or some such genderless generality (though I don't like those two in particular). So that those flustered store clerks don't have to stammer, "Can I help you, Sir-- uh, Ma'am-- uh, you?"

-- Sue

[sparkles]

i gave up on the whole title thing and andro ones just confuse me even more probalby cos im dyslexic

[Doc]

Honestly, I think non-gendered titles are needed by society as a whole.

I agree. I think we need non-gendered titles and pronouns that are used not just to indicate androgynous or gender-variant people, but are for everyone. Most people would be both "she" or "he" and "zie" (or whatever) and "Mr." or "Miss" and "Mx." (or whatever.) It'd be great if that was incorporated into our culture so that nobody ever took it amiss to be referred to or addressed in a non-gendered way.

Aside from making it easier to write form letters and documents or speak about people in a general way, I think it'd make life much easier for transpeople and for everyone else. I suspect that the flustered store-clerk phenomenon that you mention is one reason gender-varient folks get such a hard time socially. The bi-gender system makes transness a problem for others -- they are puzzled about how to speak to and about such a person, and this makes them feel awkward, and then they get angry, blaming the trans-person for their confusion and discomfort. We are victims of their anger, and their anger is not about who we are so much as it is about how we make them feel awkward because our language doesn't accomodate gender-variance.

[Laurry]

I suspect that the flustered store-clerk phenomenon that you mention is one reason gender-varient folks get such a hard time socially. The bi-gender system makes transness a problem for others -- they are puzzled about how to speak to and about such a person, and this makes them feel awkward, and then they get angry, blaming the trans-person for their confusion and discomfort. We are victims of their anger, and their anger is not about who we are so much as it is about how we make them feel awkward because our language doesn't accomodate gender-variance.

Well said and insightfully understanding.   

Sometimes we focus too much on ourselves and our struggles with society that we forget society is made up of one individual after another.  That individual is just as confused as we are about how to make things work.  Nobody likes to feel foolish or lost, and some don't react to that feeling "in an adult manner". 

Still, as much as I respect them and understand their feelings, I only want to live my life in a way that feels honest and "right".  As long as I am not harming anyone, what is the big deal?  I let them live their lives as they please, why am I not allowed to have the same respect?  <Insert "It's not fair!" screaming hissy-fit>

Most of us aren't gonna change society, but we can, though respect and understanding, change one heart at a time.  I'll settle for that...for now.

....Laurie 

[lilith]

i'll vote for comrade

[Doc]

Still, as much as I respect them and understand their feelings, I only want to live my life in a way that feels honest and "right".  As long as I am not harming anyone, what is the big deal? 

I getcha, Laurie, and it really just shouldn't be a big deal.

But I can also see how, from the point of view of these people, you and I are harming them. 'Cause it makes them feel really dumb, not knowing a simple thing like what sex somebody is. And the language issue makes it sure that they can't just quietly feel dumb to themselves, they've got to announce to everybody that they don't know, and risk hostility from us and possibly mockery if they guess wrong. If I contrived to purposefully make you feel stupid and look stupid in public, that'd be a hostile act. Since the average cisgendered person cannot fathom why transpeople present the way they do, and the average human being is self-centered enough to think that everything is about eir unless it's obviously not, well. Off they go, thinking you and I are just jerks who want to make life uncomfortable for them. Most people tend to automagically take things personally, but are actually pretty okay if you can manipulate them into understanding that it's so very very not about them.