Bad choice of words

[Jadefyre]

... kyh I don't know what it is you're reading into my posts, but your responses make NO sense to what I've been saying.

You are actively choosing to take offense to my posts, imposing opinions upon me that I have not expressed, and reading my sincere words as some sarcastic underhanded insult.

What kind of "noble goal" are we trying to achieve that just "can't be done"?

I can't call it a noble goal to find words and phrases to use that don't have connotations of gender or sex? I'm acknowledging the validity and value of the points being made by Sarah, and you're taking offense to that?! I'm saying that I like her ideas, I'm just also addressing some practical obstacles I see.

That obstacle was getting people used to using and understanding a certain phrase to adopt and understand a new one. Do you really not think that's difficult to do? If it's not an obstacle, why haven't gender neutral pronouns taken off in general parlance? And I said it was difficult, never that it "can't be done" so don't put quotes around words I did not say.

Who here is "dismantling a language"?

Go look up the definition of "penis." It has the word "male" right there in the definition. In suggesting that we no longer define a penis as a male body part, you are suggesting we dismantle that definition.

Which, by the way, I said in the context of saying I was fine with doing that. It was never a condemnation.

Is there a need for telling us how ridiculous you think what we're doing is?

I'm sorry, do you want to point out where I said that? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. I called it "noble" which I'm about 300% sure isn't synonymous with "ridiculous."

Pointing out practical obstacles and shortcomings of your goal doesn't mean I am demeaning it. In fact, I went to great lengths to be clear that I was not demeaning it, and in fact support the principle. So I'm not sure where you're getting this sense of attack from, but it isn't me.

And read this, you posted this yourself

   

Here's what dysmorphic means: "Dysmorphic feature is a medical term referring to a difference of body structure that is suggestive of a congenital disorder, genetic syndrome, or birth defect."

    In more layman's terms, that would mean an abnormal physical characteristic developed at birth.

That's exactly what it means. She has never been male bodied. Just because she was born with a penis doesn't mean she had a male body. She was assigned male at birth, because she had a penis, because she appeared male to other people. But despite all that "evidence" of her gender, her brain was female and her identity was female, and in her point of view, that made her female from the start. (I can respect that, I guess you can't.)

So there you go, there was one part of her female body that was abnormal, she fixed it, there we go. Now others will believe her when she says she's female because now she has a vagina. But she's been female this entire time.

Um, yea. That's what I said. That's why I just proposed that term as an accurate and more neutral replacement for male/female-bodied. Do you not get that this is what I was doing? I was saying that term works semantically, and proposing that it may be less problematic than "male-bodied." So why are you aggressively making the same case back to me?

And let's rewind a bit for a second to look at one bit of that quote:

But despite all that "evidence" of her gender, her brain was female and her identity was female, and in her point of view, that made her female from the start. (I can respect that, I guess you can't.)

Emphasis mine.

Excuse me? Let's review what I actually said, shall we?

A "male-bodied woman" is no less a woman.

"Male to Female" isn't meant to represent either "Male Gender Identity to Female Gender Identity" nor "Male Biological Sex to Female Biological Sex."

"And so she's always been female. Is that too philosophical for you?" No, it isn't and I never made a single claim anywhere that she was anything but female. Having male characteristics does not make her less female. My claims were never about her status as a female, neither in terms of gender identity or biological sex.

I'm not saying she isn't female. I'm not saying her brain isn't a valid determining factor in her biological sex.

You seem to be under the impression that my opinions represent an attack on her femininity or the validity of her sex, and that's not even close to accurate. Further, I've repeatedly stated that I'm in no way speaking for anyone but myself, I'm not applying my thoughts to her, but only to me.

I also get the objection that if a female can develop a penis, which obvious we know that's possible, then is a penis really inherently male?

How can I be more clear? Let me try it.

I fully acknowledge, believe and respect that Sarah is and has always been female in all ways. I fully acknowledge, believe and respect that her brain is more true to who she is than the genitalia she was born with. I fully acknowledge, believe, and respect that she is and has always been truly and biologically female. I never intended to imply that she was in any way male, and the term "male-bodied" was never intended to reflect upon her gender or sex, nor diminish either. She is and has always been 100% female.

Is that clear enough? Because if not, I don't think the words exist to satisfy you.

If you can't understand that other people can have different views on sex and gender (and that doing so isn't "cerebral" or philosophical" like you said in a previous post), then how can you expect cis people to understand us and accept us either?

This is yet another wrong impression about something I feel I've been excessively clear about.

From my very first post:

Also, you are of course always free to not identify yourself with any word or phrase you dislike. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. It's perfectly acceptable to reject a word or phrase for personal reasons and ask others not to apply it to you.

And in subsequent posts:

I suppose I get what you're saying, and I don't hold your belief against you or think that it's really wrong. I'm just not so sure it's for me.

Like I said, and as you can see if you read the thread I started here, I'm new to all this and still pretty confused by even my own feelings, so I don't pretend to speak for anyone. All I can say is that what your saying doesn't really resonate with me.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's understanding of themselves.

This is just how I feel, personally. I'm not trying to push anyone else to feel the same way, I'm just saying that I don't think the terms are wrong to use because I feel they apply to me.

Further, I've repeatedly stated that I'm in no way speaking for anyone but myself, I'm not applying my thoughts to her, but only to me.

I'm not trying to change the way anyone thinks or feels. I'm just discussing.

I'm not attacking your right to use your phrase to describe yourself, I'm saying I don't feel it adequately describes me.

Again, I was saying this stuff so often that I felt like a broken record, but apparently it still wasn't enough.

I love debate and discourse. I find it fun, enlightening, exciting, and entertaining to lock minds with another peson on pretty much any subject. Sarah sent me a really nice PM saying she feels the same way. She never meant for things to get heated, and neither did I. Neither of us were upset, we were just having a discussion.

You're the one that got me frustrated with your posts that seemed to radically misinterpret what I was trying to say, and paint me as on the attack. That's the reason I made that post where I got a little riled up. I apologized for that, because I thought that in my tiredness I read something into your words that was not there, and responded poorly.

You made a sweet remark about me not needing to feel like a villain, and Sarah went out of her way to PM me to make sure there were no hard feelings and tell me that she understood my perspective even if she didn't agree with my arguments. (By the way Sarah, I'll get back to you on the rest of that PM as soon as I am able to send PMs, but thank you, I appreciated your words.)

So I came back here, chipper and ready to just do some more discussing. I pulled back on my debate hat, set aside any personal feelings, and got back to talking about the issue.

Then, you make this post that paints me as cold and callous in no uncertain terms. You directly accuse me of not respecting Sarah's sex, and of not respecting other people's opinions, in direct contradiction to my own expressed sentiments. You put words in my mouth, and interpreted the words I did say in a radically negative light.

I'm willing to discuss anything with anyone, but I cannot have a rational discussion with someone who refuses to address my actual points in favor of addressing me as the attacker you've made me out to be in your own mind.

I'm sorry I had to be so blunt with this post, but you've made the necessity of bluntness exceptionally clear.

To anyone else reading this, I'm sorry. I would have sent this as a PM, but 1. I can't yet and 2. since kyh addressed me directly and publicly I felt the need to respond in kind. I've had no hard feelings toward anyone else here, my experience here has been overwhelmingly positive. If anyone else wants to continue the discussion about phrases and semantics in a calm and reasonable manner, I'd be glad to do so.

[kyh]

Obviously, we're upset with each other, Jadefyre. But there really is no reason for us to dislike each other because of that.

Like you said, being on this forum has been a positive experience. It has for me as well. What do you say we start over? I would like to help keep this forum a safe, friendly place for all, and you and I keep pushing each other's buttons. That's not positive in any way.

So, what do you say? Hmm? Friends? You can think about it. And btw, I'm still happy you're here despite our tussle, I guess you can call it.

[Jadefyre]

I"m not one to hold grudges kyh, and I was never upset at you personally, just upset that you seemed to be interpreting what I was saying in a way that's entirely contrary to who I am and the values I hold. I'm not a disrespectful person, never intentionally anyway. Even if I disagree with someone, I always try to treat them with respect.

For my part, I will say that I'm sorry if it seemed I was being pushy. That's not how I intended to come across. Like I said, I love debate. My family says I love to argue, but I don't see it that way. Arguments are things of passion, and I don't like disagreements based on passion, but rather those based on logic. Unfortunately one can easily turn into the other. So I'm sorry things got out of hand.

What I'm saying is no hard feelings. It's probably better to let this discussion lie, I think we've probably said about all their is to say, but I'm not considering anyone my enemy or anything. If I couldn't be friends with people I disagree with on something, the world would be a lonely place.