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transgender/sexoffenders

Started by Natkat, May 19, 2013, 09:48:50 AM

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Natkat

I had been asked this question and im still abit unsure how to answer it.

as many other transgenders I enjoy going to swim, the fitness once in a while.
I use the males room always, for swimming fitness or toilet and I think it would be odd for me to use the female as I pass around 80-90% of the time. for the swimming I just keep my bathing pants on, and for fitness I wait to shower to I get home.

I think its stupid that it tecnically seams to be illigal for me and how I could get me into trouble for using the mens room, when my ID is still female and very hard to change.

The debatation in my country goes for when the limits is to change your ID and that it shoudl't be too easy, cause then teorism could abuse it, and sex offenders could use it to get into a room filled with naked girls and bla bla bla.
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I think it stupid cause most transgender are neither teorist or sex offenders, and even if we where sex offenders we should have the same rules, So if transgender wouldnt be alllowed to go into the female shower because they had some sex offending mark on there paper then neither should a cisgender man who was arrested for rape or sexual harrasm be allowed to go into a shower with alot of naked men and children.
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well, I just still wondering cause even when I feel it to be an unfair prejugding I cant really "prove" that having better rights, and letting it be more easy to getting a new ID, would mean it would be more easy for teroist or sex offenders to abuse the system.

but what do you think?

what should the limit be to change your gendermark? homones, surgery? therapy? for how long?
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or should people who had been arrested for crimes, teorism, sex offending, cheating? not be allowed to get there gender marked changed?
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Keira

(You may want to move your post to transgender talk...assuming you want the ladies to join the discussion); I feel awkward in posting here)

Personally I don't think we should be required to get surgery...just a few months on hrt should be enough. Having the wrong gender marker on your license does more harm than good. After all, a few months on hrt and it's basically permanent change of sexual characteristics.

Besides the terrorism/rapist argument is what is being used against the gender rights bill in Canada (C-279)...it isn't a real argument, it's just  a weak plea to deny human rights...nothing more. 99% of the time when a rape occurs, you won't hear in the news "man dresses up like woman and rapes women in the bathroom of a Walmart"...as far as I can tell there is very little evidence for that ever happening. There are more cases of trans people being beaten and discriminated against (which is still under reported in the news) than this silly little hypothetical situation.

Don't even get me started on "Terrorism in America"...sweet father of Dionysus...lol

-Skye

(If Im not allowed to post here I'll delete it...I wasn't sure if I could)
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aleon515

Sky-blue actually really love your post!!I also agree that the mods should move this one. Generally don't agree with moving posts without permission of OP. But that's another topic.

I don't know that I have heard ANY cases of this man dressed as woman goes into women's room and rapes someone. Why go thru all the trouble? Seems like right now the easiest one is "man goes into military is a serial rapist; leaves with no crime ever even though he has been reported and "tried in military court" and gets an honorable discharge after serving for 20 years". Maybe shouldn't get me started on this one. I feel like this is a lame excuse.

More goodies on terrorism as an excuse. Can't people just dye their hair and put on a wig (needn't use a girl/boy one) or use the cover of darkness, why the whole gender swithchy thing? I don't think there ever was this either.

Gender marker should be easy to change. NOt sure what, if anything besides, " Under penalty of perjury, I identify as male (or female). I am not using this to evade the law or my creditors"; sign on the dotted line. I think there is concern about changing back and forth. I wouldn't care really if someone switched back 20 times if it was not to evade something. (Seems like a drastic way to do this too and doubt this has happened.)

Btw, in most states (which behave so differently that they might as well be countries)  and countries might not be that easy, but in New Mexico all I need to do is go into motor vehicle with a form from some sort of professional (therapist, endo, other doctor, counselor) saying that they certify under penalty of perjury this person is a (male/female) and will not change in the foreseeable future (it does not say EVER). That's it. That seems a nice middle ground.
The name change is not gender marked. If I didn't want to wait for my name change, I could look like a "boy named Sue" for motor vehicle. Apparently they really don't care. Maybe our poor state needs the $16??


This is all the US, but there is a nice little summary of what is required in different states to change gender markers on driver's license. The surgery info is just guys and some of these have changed: http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#28

--Jay
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Simon

Quote from: Natkat on May 19, 2013, 09:48:50 AM
but what do you think?

what should the limit be to change your gendermark? homones, surgery? therapy? for how long?
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or should people who had been arrested for crimes, teorism, sex offending, cheating? not be allowed to get there gender marked changed?

I'm sure that every Country has different laws regarding when/how you change your gender marker. Here in the USA different States have differing laws. That works out better for those in more liberal areas but the ones who live in conservative States generally get shafted until they meet strict requirements.

I think the gender marker on your license should be able to be changed once you have your name changed and have been on HRT for six months to a year. It should just require a letter from a therapist or Endo saying you're on HRT and for treatment purposes they believe it would be beneficial to your care to have your gender marker changed.

I can understand more requirements to change your birth certificate but really...who even sees that? I want mine changed so I can get married but other than that I don't really care. My license is another story because there are multiple reasons someone would ask to see identification. It's the reason I dread looking for jobs.

For people who have been arrested (for serious crimes) and been rehabilitated I don't see why having their gender marker changed would be an issue. I think having their name changed would be more of a problem.
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Taka

i don't like gender markers. there's nothing about my gender representation or whatever's between my legs that makes me more likely to be who i say i am just because it happens to be congruent with a letter on a card i'm carrying. my student id says i'm a woman, i don't get why anyone needs to know their student's gender for, my name, picture, and student number should be more than enough.

and if too many people end up walking around with the wrong gender markers because of some country's regulations, won't that just make it easier for terrorists? they can steal an opposite sex identity and get away with it by saying they're transsexual, since everybody's too used to meeting people with the wrong marker...
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Ltl89

I am perplexed how bathrooms have to do with terrorism.  "If the transgender's get into our bathrooms, the terrorist win" - is that the argument people are debating in your country?

As for sex offenders, it is true that there are creepy people that could do something along those lines.  However, a man could easily walk into a woman's room without any clothes on and do the same thing.  If someone wanted to do it, I doubt they would cross dress in hopes to attack a woman in a vulnerable spot.  Likely he would enter the room without others looking and do it at that point.  The real argument that they are making is that transgender woman are deviant men with perverse sexual habits.  They believe we are preying on their mothers, sisters and daughters.  Nothing could be further from the truth. 
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Natkat

Quote from: aleon515 on May 19, 2013, 11:23:55 AM
More goodies on terrorism as an excuse. Can't people just dye their hair and put on a wig (needn't use a girl/boy one) or use the cover of darkness, why the whole gender swithchy thing? I don't think there ever was this either.
I guess the agument agenst that is, they would still need an ID to go around and do things and if they showed there male ID they would be busted, but yeah it sound odd to me as well.

Quote from: Simon on May 19, 2013, 11:39:35 AM
I can understand more requirements to change your birth certificate but really...who even sees that? I want mine changed so I can get married but other than that I don't really care. My license is another story because there are multiple reasons someone would ask to see identification. It's the reason I dread looking for jobs.

For people who have been arrested (for serious crimes) and been rehabilitated I don't see why having their gender marker changed would be an issue. I think having their name changed would be more of a problem.

I guess the drama is because in my country ID for your gendermark is used for pretty much everthing to when your born, looking for job, going to school, to the doctor, and so on so on.
theres some people who got there gender maked changed and have problems because there whole history is kind of delited so its like they have no past and they strugle to get there pass information connected to there new ID.

I bet some are scared that the whole changing your gendermarked could make your old life being delited from a bad to an inoccent person. IDK.

theres also country where you dont have an gendermark. I personally thought it could be really great cause there talking about changing the ID system, that it could be somehow genderneutral, or you could have 3 options insteed of 2 like, male, female, not shown, or something.
But there not very keen to do anything just to please transgenders so I dont count on it to happent in a way like that.
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just to make it clear, its not the general thing of teorist/sexoffenders which I dont get.
its difficult to me to explain but I just not sure if im to be asked straightforward how I can prove this wont happent, I guess its abit like answering a question of "what if you change your mind?"

I mean the honest trust is I dont know what people or I do for the future.
it seams unlikely for me, I never heard of any teorist who wanted to change there gender, neither have I heard of caises with men who change there ID into female so they can be creeps. but sure it could happent even when I guess it would be some kinda strange teroist or sexoffenders.

in someway I think homontherapy would be fine but on the other hand theres alot of transpeople who cant or dont want to take homones for whatever reason they have yet its still very troublesome having your gendermarked wrong.
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Natkat

Quote from: learningtolive on May 19, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
I am perplexed how bathrooms have to do with terrorism.  "If the transgender's get into our bathrooms, the terrorist win" - is that the argument people are debating in your country?

As for sex offenders, it is true that there are creepy people that could do something along those lines.  However, a man could easily walk into a woman's room without any clothes on and do the same thing.  If someone wanted to do it, I doubt they would cross dress in hopes to attack a woman in a vulnerable spot.  Likely he would enter the room without others looking and do it at that point.  The real argument that they are making is that transgender woman are deviant men with perverse sexual habits.  They believe we are preying on their mothers, sisters and daughters.  Nothing could be further from the truth.
LOL people in my country are pretty creative with there aguments XD, we cant really blame god after all,
I belive theits something about then they could get another Identety and by that be a secret terrorist without anyone notice and do some bad stuff <-- something wierd like that who was the thought, but yeah I dont get it.

the question where put up in a "should we have a limit? way, where a couple of groups where mention, ex terorism, and it actually amount transgender its debatated.

we hope to get rid of the current system we got and get a new one, but people have diffrent opinions on how it should be and how to get it.

some people are very free-spirited and think all transgenders easy should be able to do things as getting homones and surgery and changing your gender marked without much trouble.

other people belive this is too unrealistical and too much to expect in a hetronormative sociaty, and that we are just making it worse if we belive we can build rome in 1 day and fight for everyone.
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not only mtf, I also reseved a couple of bad comment because I for many years refused to go to the womens bathroom or shower, not because I mind seeing naked women but it just feels more right and confortable in the men. yet I get prejugde that either I am a pervert who sexual humiliate others by looking at there penis (I hardly look at people) or that I am putting myself in some danger and if something happents its my own fault.
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Ltl89

Quote from: Natkat on May 19, 2013, 02:31:21 PM
LOL people in my country are pretty creative with there aguments XD, we cant really blame god after all,
I belive theits something about then they could get another Identety and by that be a secret terrorist without anyone notice and do some bad stuff <-- something wierd like that who was the thought, but yeah I dont get it.

the question where put up in a "should we have a limit? way, where a couple of groups where mention, ex terorism, and it actually amount transgender its debatated.

we hope to get rid of the current system we got and get a new one, but people have diffrent opinions on how it should be and how to get it.

some people are very free-spirited and think all transgenders easy should be able to do things as getting homones and surgery and changing your gender marked without much trouble.

other people belive this is too unrealistical and too much to expect in a hetronormative sociaty, and that we are just making it worse if we belive we can build rome in 1 day and fight for everyone.
-----
not only mtf, I also reseved a couple of bad comment because I for many years refused to go to the womens bathroom or shower, not because I mind seeing naked women but it just feels more right and confortable in the men. yet I get prejugde that either I am a pervert who sexual humiliate others by looking at there penis (I hardly look at people) or that I am putting myself in some danger and if something happents its my own fault.
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I still don't see the terrorist argument.  Even if you changed your name and gender, what you have done in the past remains with you.  It's not like Osama bin Laden could have changed his name to Osamalina and eveyone would have forgotten what he did.  It doesn't work like that.  People can try to change their identity secretly but they don't need a sex change for that.  In fact, the sex change aspect would likely draw more attention to people trying to conceal their identity than what they are looking.  I really can't buy that argument. 



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AdamMLP

I don't think that people should have to go on hormones for a set amount of time of have surgery before they change their gender marker, because as some other people have already said, no everyone wants to go on hormones/have surgery, and not everyone can safely.  I think that maybe you should have to do a certain amount of time living as your gender if we're going to regulate it, and nothing else.  Maybe even have an intermediate step while you're living as your gender and waiting to be allowed to change it, like the 'X' that some countries allow you to have in your passport to accommodate for people outside of the binary.  People who want to go into bathrooms to assault or perv on people are going to find that very hard to do, just like we find it hard to live as our assigned sex, particularly if you haven't been brought up and socialised in that way for many years like a lot of us have been before we transition.

In any case, I think it's a void argument, because I pass as male to pretty much everyone who hasn't been introduced to me as female, and due to not knowing if I'll walk into someone that knows me as female, I don't use male bathrooms.  I can think of only a handful of occasions where someone has said anything about me being in female bathrooms, and although I do feel safer having ID in my pocket which states that I'm female when I'm in those bathrooms just in case, no one has ever asked me to "prove" my gender.  If a sex offender goes in there no one is going to have the guts to ask whether they should be in there most of the time, even if they don't look like they should be there.

And why anyone thinks that they would be able to see something in a bathroom beats me, cubicles have doors, and anyone would get called out if they were seen looking underneath a door or over the top, regardless of their gender.  And at urinals if someone catches you trying to peek at them everyone expects something to go down anyway.  Even the whole idea of gendered toilets is based on the fact that everyone must be heterosexual, because homosexual people aren't questioned when they use the bathroom of their sex, and they could be there to perv on people much easier than someone who was heterosexual and trying to get into the bathrooms of the opposite gender.  It's probably a lot easier to sexually assault someone in a secluded place than in a toilet, where there's a high chance of someone else coming in and catching you in the act.

As for people trying to use it for terrorism, I'm not too sure I under stand the point that's trying to be made.  Changing your name and moving location would be a much less conspicuous way of losing your past identity because then you're going to blend in with all of the cis people, unless you already pass.  In Britain it's very easy to change your name compared to most other countries and we don't have an influx of terrorists sneaking around under other names than what they were born as.

Personally I think gender markers should just be scrapped, because the majority of names are gendered anyway, so their ID is going to reveal what gender they are anyway.  I know some names are androgynous, but there's honestly not that many people who both have a completely androgynous name, and even less who are are heterosexual perverts, and have the inclination to try their luck in a bathroom.
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JoanneB

During the Maryland Senate hearings these pas few years for the TG rights bill, the 'bathroom nuts' always bring up the guy in dress just waiting to rape some unsuspecting woman in the toilet or locker room.

During this year's hearing the Sherrif for Montgomery county, which has their own TG rights law for I think 10 years now, testified that there was not even one reported instance from anone about a TG person in the ladies.

Zealots never let facts get in the way
.          (Pile Driver)  
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                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Jack_M

I don't think there should be any requirement for gender marker change other than a legal name change imo.  For me personally I'm desperately trying to find a way to do it but because I've got a work permit for Canada under my female name and a PR application currently in process, I'm supposed to hand over my work permit when I change my name, and then there's still the PR to address.  As usual with everything to do with the Canadian government, finding out anything other than the fact you have to sacrifice the work permit is impossible (seriously, no mention of what you do from there with getting a replacement or if you have to go through the entire process again, I mean REALLY???) 

If I could get my name changed, then I still need to get my passport changed (and that's from the UK and that's a whole new kettle of fish).  And then FINALLY I can get a driver's license.  Add in HRT requirements and that's just one stage too ridiculous!

The issue I have is that right now I dare not go out, at all!  I can't pass as the 28 year I am and I can't go anywhere without getting ID'd and no freakin' way I'm showing a woman's ID.  I've learnt the hard way that there's no discretion with that.  So right now I have no social life because of all the hoops I have to jump through thanks to the Canadian government that I naively thought was a better, more accepting one!

So yeah, I don't think there should be any of this nonsense to change gender marker.  Any delay for getting a birth certificate or whatever I think is easier to deal with, but getting the right ID shouldn't be this difficult at all, it just makes every day life impossible.  I have no social life because of this issue and that feels more like it's denying me basic rights.  Like the right to have an ID for who I actually am in the right gender!  I can barely believe I'm in Canada!!!!  They're using the same BS to make it hard for me, and in my case it's because I'm an immigrant.  Never mind that I'm an atheist from Scotland - I must have some alternative motive for wanting to change my name even though as an immigrant, big brother is practically always watching us!  I can't risk going on public transit without a fully valid ticket because that's a criminal offense here and I'm deported.  I can't even cycle without a helmet for the same reason.  I could literally be deported for not cycling with a helmet!  Then I pay taxes and pay into employment insurance with every pay check (almost $100 a pay check), but as an immigrant I get nothing out of that.  I'm out of work right now, and that employment insurance I have to legally pay into, can't help me out when I'm unemployed.  And I still have to pay full price on the MSP (BC equivalent of UK's NHS but for some idiotic reason we pay per month rather than out of our taxes, which just screws me over entirely).

There's a certain point you get to where you start to feel like they're trying to make immigrants into potential terrorists!  It's driving me mental!  I just want an ID!! :(
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