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Progesterone

Started by Riley Skye, May 27, 2013, 09:41:59 AM

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DrBobbi

As a doc I know that when it comes to something as important as my transition, I sought out an expert, an endocrinologist that's been treating trans women for 30 years, and this is what he had to say on this very subject:

[The Annals of Internal Medicine on menopausal hormone therapy (HRT).  Not a new study but a review of previous ones by data analysts from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), it painted a bleak picture of HRT whose benefits seemed limited to a diminished risk for osteoporotic fracture at the cost of increased risks for gall bladder disease, stroke, heart disease, potentially fatal lung clots and perhaps even breast cancer and dementia.  This is not the first time this federal body has weighed in on the subject of HRT having made recommendations against it back in 2001 and 2004 after damaging reports by the "landmark" Women's Health Initiative Study (WHIMS) had been loudly and prematurely publicized, driving thousands of eligible women to needlessly abandon or avoid any forms of HRT. 

The WHIMS examined the influence of one particular estrogenic product Premarin, containing some thirty different hormones, many of them equine and some of unknown nature, taken alone or in conjunction with a highly atypical synthetic progestin called Provera, which is about thirty times more potent than natural progesterone, in a one size fits all trial of hormones versus placebo.  The patients involved in this study were poorly chosen having already spent more than a decade post-menopausal, so that the damage had already been done, and close to half of them switched from the hormones they were supposed to take without this being taken into account, during the course of the study.  Other factors influencing their already compromised health such as obesity, alcohol consumption, and smoking were not accurately considered and the hormones being given were delivered by mouth so that they must first pass through the liver before reaching their target organs, a far from natural process. 

Numerous follow up reports and recommendations have since been spawned from this ill-conceived, poorly executed study so irresponsibly publicized that, instead of oral Premarin and Provera solely being condemned, all forms of menopausal HRT, oral or otherwise, were dismissed out of hand. Now the USPSTF has entered the fray once again, using data largely derived from the WHIMS and related studies dealing with oral Premarin and Provera. The easiest way to make sense out of all this is by looking at the individual health outcomes that matter, whether for better or for worse. 

Heart disease, the premier killer of women is far more lethal and frequent than breast cancer. Prior to menopause the natural ovarian hormones greatly reduce its risk but after menopause it skyrockets. When non-oral estradiol, the natural estrogen of women, is given to castrate female primates in adequate doses it greatly reduces heart disease compared with placebo, as it well should, given what we know scientifically about its mechanisms of action. Prempro studies failed to reproduce this result because equine estrogens cannot be converted into the crucial active byproduct of estradiol which naturally protects women from heart disease prior to menopause. Thankfully many modern physicians, particularly in Los Angeles today treat the menopause with non-oral estradiol and when its levels are adequately generated and stably maintained heart disease can be naturally prevented.

Another major concern of HRT is the risk for clots, to the legs, the lungs and the brain, leading to stroke or even sudden death. It is the liver first-pass that fuels this problem but whereas oral hormones augment these serious risks, the same is not true of nonoral estradiol, which can be delivered effectively using the modern Dot Matrix estradiol patch, a reliable, FDA approved platform, which, by the way is truly "bioidentical." In contrast, compounded forms of "Bioidentical Hormone Therapy" (BIHT) offer an unstable, erratic delivery platform for estrogen delivery which clearly disqualifies them from this preventive role.  And the progesterone creams its purveyors have so popularized through clever marketing ploys tend to sequester under the skin, fueling depression and weight gain in a chemical manner while failing to be reliably delivered to the uterus for endometrial cancer prevention.

Gallbladder disease and elevations in triglycerides are also boosted only by oral forms of hormone therapy and are not a problem with nonoral estradiol. The concerns of this report about dementia are equally ill founded.  The studies in question focused on loosely evaluated and defined cognitive dysfunction rather than actual, accurately identified dementia. Some degree of cognitive dysfunction is frequent in menopausal women relating to the use of antidepressant drugs, sedatives, alcohol use and even relating to depression in and of itself. The premise whereby hormone therapy might prevent or reduce dementia and depression is by increasing brain levels of estradiol.  But oral equine estrogens paradoxically reduce brain estradiol levels rather than increasing them, by virtue of reducing hormonal access to the brain. In contrast, non-oral estradiol raises brain estradiol levels. 

This leads us to the topic of breast cancer, the greatest fear of menopausal women. Now in the WHIM study even oral Premarin reduced rather than increased breast cancer when given without Provera.  Provera seemed to be the only hormonal cause of an increased risk but this progestin is highly atypical whereas natural progesterone, particularly when given vaginally so as to minimize access to the breasts should not pose a threat. Finally the administration of estrogen and progesterone to women inadvertently reduces their levels of testosterone. Low-dose nonoral testosterone therapy can then be of great benefit by further reducing or reversing osteoporosis and physical aging, reversing depression and perhaps dementia and even reducing breast cancer risk to a further degree.

The results of HRT studies over the last ten or so years may be justifiably critical of oral equine estrogens used with one particular progestin but it does not follow that non-oral natural estradiol and progesterone need to be avoided, indeed they offer a potent, user-friendly natural form of preventive health care in women.  And by this I do not mean "bioidentical Hormones".  BIHT is a loose marketing buzzword used after the WHIMS scare, to exploit the vacuum it created.  The estrogens it offers were never tested, measured or evaluated, and they appear to be a highly erratic platform for estrogen delivery, thus eliminating its benefits.  Menopausal HRT can be a boon to the modern women, without putting her at breast cancer risk.   In fact over the last 25 years while treating menopausal women with estradiol, progesterone and low-dose testosterone in a sophisticated and precise manner, I have not seen a single case (touch wood) of breast cancer complicating this treatment.  To sum up, it's fine when bean counters count expertly, but they also need to know their beans. 
  •  

A

Quote from: PoisonEnvy on May 28, 2013, 06:21:34 PM
Yeah i've been thinking about starting progesterone but i've heard it can convert to testosterone and make you grow body & facial hair if not watched carfeully by a doctor. The pros i've heard are that it makes your breast bigger and rounder and makes your areolas bigger. I also heard for some people it helps even out mood swings caused by estrogen dominace and helps with anxiety & depression.
Estradiol doesn't cause mood swings. Depression, in a few cases, yes, not unheard of. But the only way estradiol can cause mood swings is if its levels are in "swings" too.

Quote from: JuliaVB on May 28, 2013, 10:36:07 AM
I'm hoping with adding more E and taking progesterone that I'll finally start developing my body. I think my current dose is too low unfortunately. and btw would taking my estrogens sublingually help with absorption?
Taking your pills sublingually works to improve absorption as well as reduce risks.

Quote from: JessicaH on May 28, 2013, 01:53:37 AM
Keep in mind , that most studies showing negative effects are MPA(provera) and not the same as biologic provera. It also has a way of sensitizing E receptors but may be counter productive to take a static daily dose.  My doc is MtF and she talked me into a cyclic regimen and my breasts are suddenly sore again and feeling like they are growing.
Make sure you're not just seeing them swell and shrink because of the cycle. Maybe they do grow for real, but there's also a chance they only grow temporarily.

Quote from: Shantel on May 28, 2013, 07:43:11 PM
Got lots of experts out there but I use it and it works! My menopausal spouse is required to use it along with her estrogen because she still has her female organs and estrogen alone will cause endometrial or ovarian cancer, the progesterone creates a balance. In both instances we are using bio-identical plant based topically applied hormones that are made by a compounding pharmacy as opposed to chemically produced hormones that are made by Wyeth and Merck labs. Bio-identicals are much safer by far.
Excuse me, what? Plant-based and bioidentical? You do know that's contradictory, right? If it comes from a plant, the only thing it's bioidentical to is plant hormones. There are only two physically possible ways of obtaining bioidentical hormones, no? Either you take them from a human, either you synthetically copy them from looking at human hormones. The first choice is hardly ethical, and the second is precisely what Estrace (an "artificial" pill) is.
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  •  

Shantel

Quote from: A on May 29, 2013, 08:49:49 AM

Excuse me, what? Plant-based and bioidentical? You do know that's contradictory, right? If it comes from a plant, the only thing it's bioidentical to is plant hormones. There are only two physically possible ways of obtaining bioidentical hormones, no? Either you take them from a human, either you synthetically copy them from looking at human hormones. The first choice is hardly ethical, and the second is precisely what Estrace (an "artificial" pill) is.

Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.
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Jennygirl

Pellets, creams, patches, or injections. Choose one and get off the pills. Avoid health risks, live longer, be happier, feminize faster. Seems like a win win win win to me.
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Riley Skye

I've been thinking about switching to injections but not sure how that'll work, as in how to get them and I'm sure I'll be shown how to administer them too
Love and peace are eternal
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Jennygirl

Quote from: JuliaVB on May 29, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
I've been thinking about switching to injections but not sure how that'll work, as in how to get them and I'm sure I'll be shown how to administer them too

I'm not sure, I was always under the impression that the endocrinologist does it. I'm getting estrogen + progesterone pellets with a progesterone booster injection and it's all done by my endo.
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: Shantel on May 29, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.

Personally I wouldn't tell anything to a naturopath, I prefer having discussions with scientists. As for pharmacists, most ought to tell you what I'm about to...

Chemically something either is or isn't. Once you put aside inert materials used in producing the final product (which you will find no matter how you synthesize or extract the active compound), then you have the active compounds that make up the pharmaceutical product. That compound, no matter if it is chemically synthesized or extracted from a 'natural' source (the natural source itself also synthesizes it), simply is what it is. It's either the same chemical structure or it isn't.

Manufactured bioidentical hormones are what they are. Which is to say they are the compounds your body produces, only formed a different way. Chemically speaking they're the same, which is to say they are... the same.

Your body doesn't magically know and reject something because it somehow knows by magic the history of how it came to be. It only cares about what it in fact IS.

Premarin is an antiquated product that includes many non-human estrogen compounds, and so naturally it is not completely reliable in how it will behave in your body, but the actual compound estradiol in any given preparation is always the same no matter where it comes from. Differing only in the delivery system.
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peky

Quote from: DrBobbi on May 29, 2013, 05:41:24 AM
As a doc I know that when it comes to something as important as my transition, I sought out an expert, an endocrinologist that's been treating trans women for 30 years, and this is what he had to say on this very subject:

[The Annals of Internal Medicine on menopausal hormone therapy (HRT).  Not a new study but a review of previous ones by data analysts from the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), it painted a bleak picture of HRT whose benefits seemed limited to a diminished risk for osteoporotic fracture at the cost of increased risks for gall bladder disease, stroke, heart disease, potentially fatal lung clots and perhaps even breast cancer and dementia.  This is not the first time this federal body has weighed in on the subject of HRT having made recommendations against it back in 2001 and 2004 after damaging reports by the "landmark" Women's Health Initiative Study (WHIMS) had been loudly and prematurely publicized, driving thousands of eligible women to needlessly abandon or avoid any forms of HRT. 

The WHIMS examined the influence of one particular estrogenic product Premarin, containing some thirty different hormones, many of them equine and some of unknown nature, taken alone or in conjunction with a highly atypical synthetic progestin called Provera, which is about thirty times more potent than natural progesterone, in a one size fits all trial of hormones versus placebo.  The patients involved in this study were poorly chosen having already spent more than a decade post-menopausal, so that the damage had already been done, and close to half of them switched from the hormones they were supposed to take without this being taken into account, during the course of the study.  Other factors influencing their already compromised health such as obesity, alcohol consumption, and smoking were not accurately considered and the hormones being given were delivered by mouth so that they must first pass through the liver before reaching their target organs, a far from natural process. 

Numerous follow up reports and recommendations have since been spawned from this ill-conceived, poorly executed study so irresponsibly publicized that, instead of oral Premarin and Provera solely being condemned, all forms of menopausal HRT, oral or otherwise, were dismissed out of hand. Now the USPSTF has entered the fray once again, using data largely derived from the WHIMS and related studies dealing with oral Premarin and Provera. The easiest way to make sense out of all this is by looking at the individual health outcomes that matter, whether for better or for worse. 

Heart disease, the premier killer of women is far more lethal and frequent than breast cancer. Prior to menopause the natural ovarian hormones greatly reduce its risk but after menopause it skyrockets. When non-oral estradiol, the natural estrogen of women, is given to castrate female primates in adequate doses it greatly reduces heart disease compared with placebo, as it well should, given what we know scientifically about its mechanisms of action. Prempro studies failed to reproduce this result because equine estrogens cannot be converted into the crucial active byproduct of estradiol which naturally protects women from heart disease prior to menopause. Thankfully many modern physicians, particularly in Los Angeles today treat the menopause with non-oral estradiol and when its levels are adequately generated and stably maintained heart disease can be naturally prevented.

Another major concern of HRT is the risk for clots, to the legs, the lungs and the brain, leading to stroke or even sudden death. It is the liver first-pass that fuels this problem but whereas oral hormones augment these serious risks, the same is not true of nonoral estradiol, which can be delivered effectively using the modern Dot Matrix estradiol patch, a reliable, FDA approved platform, which, by the way is truly "bioidentical." In contrast, compounded forms of "Bioidentical Hormone Therapy" (BIHT) offer an unstable, erratic delivery platform for estrogen delivery which clearly disqualifies them from this preventive role.  And the progesterone creams its purveyors have so popularized through clever marketing ploys tend to sequester under the skin, fueling depression and weight gain in a chemical manner while failing to be reliably delivered to the uterus for endometrial cancer prevention.

Gallbladder disease and elevations in triglycerides are also boosted only by oral forms of hormone therapy and are not a problem with nonoral estradiol. The concerns of this report about dementia are equally ill founded.  The studies in question focused on loosely evaluated and defined cognitive dysfunction rather than actual, accurately identified dementia. Some degree of cognitive dysfunction is frequent in menopausal women relating to the use of antidepressant drugs, sedatives, alcohol use and even relating to depression in and of itself. The premise whereby hormone therapy might prevent or reduce dementia and depression is by increasing brain levels of estradiol.  But oral equine estrogens paradoxically reduce brain estradiol levels rather than increasing them, by virtue of reducing hormonal access to the brain. In contrast, non-oral estradiol raises brain estradiol levels. 

This leads us to the topic of breast cancer, the greatest fear of menopausal women. Now in the WHIM study even oral Premarin reduced rather than increased breast cancer when given without Provera.  Provera seemed to be the only hormonal cause of an increased risk but this progestin is highly atypical whereas natural progesterone, particularly when given vaginally so as to minimize access to the breasts should not pose a threat. Finally the administration of estrogen and progesterone to women inadvertently reduces their levels of testosterone. Low-dose nonoral testosterone therapy can then be of great benefit by further reducing or reversing osteoporosis and physical aging, reversing depression and perhaps dementia and even reducing breast cancer risk to a further degree.

The results of HRT studies over the last ten or so years may be justifiably critical of oral equine estrogens used with one particular progestin but it does not follow that non-oral natural estradiol and progesterone need to be avoided, indeed they offer a potent, user-friendly natural form of preventive health care in women.  And by this I do not mean "bioidentical Hormones".  BIHT is a loose marketing buzzword used after the WHIMS scare, to exploit the vacuum it created.  The estrogens it offers were never tested, measured or evaluated, and they appear to be a highly erratic platform for estrogen delivery, thus eliminating its benefits.  Menopausal HRT can be a boon to the modern women, without putting her at breast cancer risk.   In fact over the last 25 years while treating menopausal women with estradiol, progesterone and low-dose testosterone in a sophisticated and precise manner, I have not seen a single case (touch wood) of breast cancer complicating this treatment.  To sum up, it's fine when bean counters count expertly, but they also need to know their beans.

Well doc, here is what the "Endocrine Society" promotes

http://www.endo-society.org/guidelines/final/upload/endocrine-treatment-of-transsexual-persons.pdf

Dr. Peky
  •  

A

Quote from: Shantel on May 29, 2013, 09:34:49 AM
Uh-huh another pharmaceutical expert. Tell that to a naturopathic MD or the compounding pharmacists. Results are proof enough for me. All the government statistics about HRT is based on what the major chemical companies are producing and the resultant problems encountered by ingesting manufactured chemicals and horse urine pills, we are comparing apples with oranges here and indulging in a bit of tunnel vision. "We never did it that way before" are the seven last words of a failed program. Said my piece, I'm out of this thread.
I think you misunderstood. I never meant to say it was not a good product. I'm just saying that coming from plants and being bioidentical are two physically incompatible statements. Even if one of those two is a lie, it can still be effective; what do I know?

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
Pellets, creams, patches, or injections. Choose one and get off the pills. Avoid health risks, live longer, be happier, feminize faster. Seems like a win win win win to me.
Sadly it's not all positive. I don't know about creams (not sure they're being sold here), but I do know that the transdermic gel, on top of being very expensive and not covered by insurance, was not made in doses high enough for trans women, and would almost require me to cover my whole body with it to be equivalent to a standard pill dose. Also, some (me included) are concerned about the effects of the more extreme high-low hormone level spikes from injections.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 04:19:14 PM
I'm not sure, I was always under the impression that the endocrinologist does it. I'm getting estrogen + progesterone pellets with a progesterone booster injection and it's all done by my endo.
I'm jealous. My own endo won't even see me every 3 months, which should be the minimum in the first months/year of HRT, and give me a decend dose. I wonder if this is common or if it's mostly patients who do it themselves. Ew, I hate needles enough when someone else does it; I surely wouldn't want to inject something into myself! (Any eventual risk of injectable drugs: eliminated.)
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Last update: June 11th, 2012
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Joanna Dark

It seems like most endos and prescribers don't think progesterone is needed or does anything. But there is enough circumstantial evidence to think that it does at the very least help with breast growth and a general feminization. It's also an anti-androgen so that can only be good for trans women. But then again all the talk about breast cancer is certainly scary.
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Jennygirl

A- it's definitely true what you say about the up/down spikes of injections. Still, they are a step above pills physical health wise. But yes, mentally, ymmv. There could be some drastic roller coaster type of effects from why I understand.

And the only reason I've seen my endo so much is because he administers all of my hormones. Not once have I given myself a shot, taken a pill, or applied anything daily. I do like that a lot. I am just living my life with no daily regimen requirement. Also I still haven't had my levels checked- I will at 7 months.

However when the creams become available I am going to be switching to those.
  •  

A

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 29, 2013, 11:50:17 PM
A- it's definitely true what you say about the up/down spikes of injections. Still, they are a step above pills physical health wise. But yes, mentally, ymmv. There could be some drastic roller coaster type of effects from why I understand.

And the only reason I've seen my endo so much is because he administers all of my hormones. Not once have I given myself a shot, taken a pill, or applied anything daily. I do like that a lot. I am just living my life with no daily regimen requirement. Also I still haven't had my levels checked- I will at 7 months.

However when the creams become available I am going to be switching to those.

I wonder how injections compare to sublingually taken pills. Also, yeah, I'd like that as well. Being reminded every morning and evening by pills that I don't naturally produce normal (or, rather, appropriate) hormones isn't killing me, but it's definitely not having a positive impact on my mood.

Ideally I'd really like to have these implants that they change yearly and not worry about it... but it depends what kind of implant it is. In the video about a transsexual child I saw a few weeks ago, the implant looked like it was put just under the skin, under the arm, leaving a pretty gross protrusion. x_x

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 29, 2013, 10:42:18 PM
It seems like most endos and prescribers don't think progesterone is needed or does anything. But there is enough circumstantial evidence to think that it does at the very least help with breast growth and a general feminization. It's also an anti-androgen so that can only be good for trans women. But then again all the talk about breast cancer is certainly scary.
Eh, I don't know about feminization, breasts or breast cancer, but where did you hear that progesterone was an antiandrogen? The antiandrogen I take, cyproterone, just so happens to be a progestIN, but as far as I know, progesterone has some androgenic effects.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I took a look at that document from the endocrine society. I only read the summary, because I read slowly and don't have two hours to spend on the document, but it seems mostly okay, except for a few things:

-The use of very precise numbers that many professionals might interpret wrongly as strict requirements, such as precisely 16 years old for HRT, precisely one year of life in the new gender for SRS and precisely 18 years old for SRS. That's problematic IMO, because as much as it's a problem to leave it entirely to the professionals and/or trans person's judgement(s), every case and person are different, and how much one can be ready and judge the risks and benefits of a procedure doesn't appear magically after a set period.

-In contrast with the above, they sure put a lot of power in the professionals' hands. They need to approve every medical decision, and it's absolutely up to them whether they judge a patient ready for HRT/SRS. Not to mention a very large number of doctors majorly underestimate the risks and disadvantages of the absence of treatment and put the accent on the risks of treatment. Some would never allow HRT if there were the slightest increased risk of clotting, for example, totally disregarding that without HRT, their patient might, say, kill themself.

-They say to wait until Tanner stage 2-3 before giving BLOCKERS, for heaven's sake! HRT that young is probably indeed a bad idea, but seriously, waiting until the patient is well into puberty to just accept to stop the damage is plain cruel. By tanner stage 3, damage is already there, and might in some case already require surgery (for example, breasts in FTMs). I see no justfication for waiting this long before giving a treatment that has very few downsides or risks apart from its price.
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Last update: June 11th, 2012
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JessicaH

I think some people on this thread are not even reading what other's post. The WHI study is worthless unless you are taking premarin and synthetic progestins ( like MPA/Provera)! REAL progesterone is NOT comparable.  BTW, I use E and micronized bioidentical progesterone and the cost for both is only $100 a month for a lot higher dose than I was taking before.

BTW, bioidentical means it is the IDENTICAL chemical structure to the one produced in the human body.
  •  

ChrisTinaBruce

#33
Everyone reacts differently to all medications so take it slow and see how you react.  I added Progesterone after being on HRT for 3 years and noticed a difference in about 6 months.  I would suggest cycling off your Estrogen for a week to 10 days of the month and take the Progesterone only during those 7 to 10 days. 

Wish you the best.


Be Bold, Be Proud, Be Yourself.
Chris Tina Bruce








Removed link.
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Shantel

+1 yes to what both Jessica H and Chris Tina Bruce has said.
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A

Ew, that must feel weird. If I just forget one of my two daily estrogen pills at night, I feel like i'm sick in the morning. And I'm on a small dose. Don't even want to try removign it for over a week.
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
No more updates
  •  

Shantel

Quote from: A on May 30, 2013, 12:49:07 PM
Ew, that must feel weird. If I just forget one of my two daily estrogen pills at night, I feel like i'm sick in the morning. And I'm on a small dose. Don't even want to try removign it for over a week.

Genetic females produce estrogen during the first half of the month, it drops way low and then the progesterone comes on hard through the second half along with a little prolactin. One month period to period is a cycle. You'd think that anyone mimicking a normal female cycle would have similar results in their attempts at feminizing. This is my approach and it seems to have been working just fine, even better once I got off of the pill forms and went to topical applications only.
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muuu

#37
.
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Shantel

Quote from: iiii on May 30, 2013, 05:01:22 PM
Though, androcur suppresses your bodys natural E production, so wouldn't you end up with ridiculously low E levels and too high T levels (without E your T will end up higher)?

I don't know anything about androcur or how it works, never used it and don't know what this has to do with anything I said.
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Elle

I heard cycling progesterone is kinda pointless since we are not genetic females. I also heard it doesn't help with redistributing fat and makes you put on muscle instead.
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