importance of V shape to passing

[Nero]

There is the widening of the shoulder girdle at puberty for cis-males--but--a *lot* of the V shape from behind is because of the lats.  Gym and lats (and pecs) is where I get an extra 5 or so inches on measurements.

Thanks stav. Was wondering that. I just recently started going to the gym again (hadn't been since high school). I do the exercises labeled 'shoulder' and 'lats' on the machines but other than that have no clue. Any tips?

[Crow]

There are definitely some handy tips in that article. The unfortunate reality for me, though, is that my preferred mode of exercise(/my career) is hiking... which is far more likely to buff up my thighs than my shoulders. To which I say: Oh well. *shrugs*

I may look into doing some swimming for some shoulder muscle building, though, since swimming has the added bonus of strengthening my forever-aching back. And offering some nerdy marine biologist opportunities, to boot.

[stavraki]

...and confidence, or bearing, or sense of yourself as male......state of maleness of mind.  If you know and you feel male and just are male, everyone else will appreciate that....

the aesthetics - how you 'radiate' the inner man - gay guys have a bucket of terms to 'capture' different kinds of masculinity as we admire.

- One of mine - a fruff - 'fashion-rough' look.  A fruff is a 'masc' guy who looks just that touch 'rough' but who's chosen fashion combos to make that so.  A guy with stubble, a cap,
- gym gear, 'sports kit' is another term,
- a 'uniform' another we use (authority fashion),
- a 'bear' is another one (a lot of facial hair), bigger guy - more girth in the middle -
- 'a suit' is another term we use, or clothes 'that maketh the man' as they used to say -

they're all just stereotypes, though.....

cheers
stav

[stavraki]

Thanks stav. Was wondering that. I just recently started going to the gym again (hadn't been since high school). I do the exercises labeled 'shoulder' and 'lats' on the machines but other than that have no clue. Any tips?

Combine lateral pulldowns (these really are the bulk of the good work), with deltoid work (dumbbell flies--they're the ones where you hold your arms out wide and raise from side of body to horizontal).  And the deltoids give another inch to inch and a half (your upper arm muscle, off the shoulder).  A good deltoid really makes a masculine 'look'.

Compliment with pecs (chest press) work, triceps and biceps.....voila!

And - *push* the weight gain.  As you add weight, keep upping the reps....you should be grunting and in agony by repetition  8 at first.  Add a rep at a time until you get to 12 reps--then up the weight and drop the reps back to 8.

My favourite saying at gym is pain....is.....my......friend

To strip fat - ride to a gym that's 30 to 45 minutes away.  Don't take your car.  And make sure to rest between hard workouts at least a day.  The rest actually lets your muscle grow....go about 3 to 4 times a week.

If you're not *SORE* day after a workout - UP the weights and work *harder*.  It's gotta *hurt* the day after ha ha ha

[Nygeel]

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with shooting for it as long you're realistic about the results. But I don't workout expecting much more than a fitter, stronger body. I wouldn't get too invested in achieving a certain look. I am looking to build up my shoulders as much as possible though.

Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful.

Yeah, I'd say confidence is more vital than masculine presentation. And if you're worrying about whether you appear 'masculine' or not, that's like the opposite of confidence. I still have this issue myself - worrying about passing, worrying I'll 'come off gay' (not that I think there's anything wrong with that), etc. If I had more confidence, I wouldn't worry about these things.

But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.

The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.

[stavraki]

Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.

The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.

I have a dear friend who hosts a website about internalised homophobia, and the whole 'masc guy' thing......yes, you're right: stereotypes are powerful and sometimes harmful....

what do we mean by 'masculine'.....touchy, difficult and extremely loaded topic

kind regards
stav

[Nero]

Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful.

Really? Never heard of that.

But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.

Possibly.

The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up.

It's odd how I never once cared about being masculine or anything like that as a female - that's just what people said about me. Now I kind of feel like this whole 'masculinity' thing has been thrust on me the second I started passing and can't say I care for it much. It seems like so much of what passes for being male is keeping up appearances. At least around here.
Okay, that was off topic,.

[DriftingCrow]

Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.

Any sort of injury is going to come about if people, trans or not, don't use proper form. We shouldn't avoid working out, or encouraging others to workout, just because some folks don't do form checks or are overly excited and lift too much. While I want to get big, I make sure that I don't go up on weights too fast, I'd rather lift light and build muscles slower than get hurt. A little common sense is all people need.

[Soren]

Speaking of realism, there are about six basic body types: ectomorph, mesomorph, and endomorph, and a taller and shorter version for each.
An ectomorph isn't just someone skinny, they actually have a smaller bone structure. They can wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist and have them overlap.
A mesomorph is what the link was saying you want to look like. They have a larger bone structure than the ectomorph, and they tend to put on muscle more quickly. If they wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist, they only just touch.
An endomorph is the largest of the bone structures. They also gain fat more quickly. They can't wrap their thumb and middle finger around their wrist and make them touch.

So the uber defined V shape comes only with the mesomorphic body type. If that's not what you have, you'll never get it. There's nothing wrong with that. If you follow the link on the first post, there are pictures of people with other body types too. On the comparison of skinny guy vs. person in a binder, they were both ectomorphs- the skinny guy still had wider shoulders. On an endomorph, well, they tend to look like bears. Especially if they're hairy.

I think it's important to be realistic about your bone structure, however, it's always possible to exercise and bulk up the muscles to build up the line, however no amount of exercise will change you from a short ectomorph to a tall mesomorph, so you should be prepared for that. If that's what you're expecting, you're setting yourself up for failure.

But there's still a good reason to exercise. Even if you pass without it, wouldn't you like to be strong enough to climb out of a burning building?

[monarch]

So the uber defined V shape comes only with the mesomorphic body type. If that's not what you have, you'll never get it. There's nothing wrong with that.

I agree about the body types.  I am an ectomorph, and my V shape is not super well defined.  However, there is enough of a V shape to make developing curves an impossibility.  Now would be a good time to mention that my smaller body type does aid me in my transition, so even though my body proportions are wrong my small size compensates for that shortcoming.  I know that I am going in the opposite direction, but I would imagine the same holds true for FTMs.  Anyway, usually it is give and take with transitions.  At least, that has been my experience so far.

[Jack_M]

The above is true (to an extent*).  I have a bigger build and have always had wider shoulders as a result.  I still think confidence and the way to hold yourself overrules.  I'd say dress, confidence and actions before I think about the factor of shape.  For example, walking like a man is very different to walking like a woman.  If you have a V shape but walk like a woman, your shape won't mean jack.  Also, the problem I have with a bigger build also means I have a larger chest area which makes hiding the moobs harder!  So pre-Top surgery it could actually hinder passing over help.

*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span.  I have a bigger build but I'm also a pianist (steady now...be mature! ) and can easily reach a 10th on the piano, so I can actually fit thumb to pinky (just touching) around my wrist, but I do have a V shape that I'm working on to make even better.  So that would make the above out of whack a bit.  Wrist example aside, it's true though.  Some will work their arse off and get really buff and still not have the best V shape, and some could have little toning and be lucky (like my brother: the king of video games and staring at a dumbbell like it's an alien device he couldn't begin to figure out).

[Devlyn]

The above is true (to an extent*).  I have a bigger build and have always had wider shoulders as a result.  I still think confidence and the way to hold yourself overrules.  I'd say dress, confidence and actions before I think about the factor of shape.  For example, walking like a man is very different to walking like a woman.  If you have a V shape but walk like a woman, your shape won't mean jack.  Also, the problem I have with a bigger build also means I have a larger chest area which makes hiding the moobs harder!  So pre-Top surgery it could actually hinder passing over help.

*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span.  I have a bigger build but I'm also a pianist (steady now...be mature! ) and can easily reach a 10th on the piano, so I can actually fit thumb to pinky (just touching) around my wrist, but I do have a V shape that I'm working on to make even better.  So that would make the above out of whack a bit.  Wrist example aside, it's true though.  Some will work their arse off and get really buff and still not have the best V shape, and some could have little toning and be lucky (like my brother: the king of video games and staring at a dumbbell like it's an alien device he couldn't begin to figure out).

Mmmpb nmubnm mm    <beet red, biting tongue, leaving in a hurry>

[spacerace]

I think when people don't pass even after being T or they are pre-T and want to do what they can to help themselves, it is a process where different approaches are taken, and this is just one of those things to try.

Trying to make yourself in better shape and working on your appearance is not just a "masculine" thing.  Yes, the context it was presented in was about passing - passing itself concerns how other people perceive you, so that is why it was framed that way. Personally, the more I work at improving my appearance in the context of losing weight and trying to work out, my confidence has improved. As mentioned in the thread, it is all tied together.

I also saw this video some guy created and wanted to add it to the thread because it is relevant and helpful:

[Soren]

*how fingers fit around wrist isn't a great indicator because the length of people's fingers vary as well as hand-span.

True, but most books say that's the easiest way to find out without a professional. I suppose a measuring tape would work as well, but somehow reading 5.5in is really depressing...

[Simon]

The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.

It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim. I had it used against me many times when I worked third shift weekends in a 24 hour diner. One too many drunken rednecks have used that word against me before I passed. Such can be life in the deep South. I've been known to use it around my gf when referring to myself (not when I am referring to others) and will continue to do so.

Ok, as far as the OP question. My shoulders are quite a bit wider than my hips but I think I was blessed with that because of the higher T levels I have had since my first puberty. When I didn't pass in other ways it didn't really help all that much. Now I am thankful to be built like I am. Now I just need to get in shape.

I have seen guys who were bowling pin shaped and I do think it hurt them a bit. Everyone is different but it is uncommon to see a cis male with disproportionally larger hips and butt.

[Jamie D]

Shoulder injuries seem very very common within trans people who take testosterone, so working out trying to get that kind of shape can be harmful. But it seems like if you're worrying if you come across as gay then you do have a problem with that...at least internally.

The whole concept of masculinity is jacked up. I really dislike how the author of the link uses "The T word" numerous times, it's not our word to reclaim.

Testosterone use can cause your muscles to blow so fast as to outstrip the ability of the tendons to keep up. 

Shoulder and arm injuries are "diagnostic" of male athletes who are "juicing" - as well as mountains of acne.

[Proton]

Having wider hips has made me really self conscious, specially when around skinny guys. Wider shoulders would help, but as others have pointed out, working too hard on them might do more harm than good.

It's my understanding that T itself might be helpful on getting the V shape, so I'll just hope for that and try exercising to keep fit.

It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim.

I don't think that's necessarily true...? That specific slur is disproportionally used against AMAB trans* people.

[Simon]

I don't think that's necessarily true...? That specific slur is disproportionally used against AMAB trans* people.

Just to be clear, I'd rather not discuss if I have the merits necessary to reclaim a word that has been used multiple times against me personally. Regardless of who you guys deem "worthy" of using it...fact is I don't care. If you have a finger poked in your chest while being called one or backed into a corner and asked if you are "a ->-bleeped-<-" then maybe you'll understand why some trans people (and yes Transmen) choose to reclaim it. If you've never been affected by it or if you just choose not to use it yourself that is fine.

[Nygeel]

It's a word for anyone who has had it used against them to reclaim. I had it used against me many times when I worked third shift weekends in a 24 hour diner. One too many drunken rednecks have used that word against me before I passed. Such can be life in the deep South. I've been known to use it around my gf when referring to myself (not when I am referring to others) and will continue to do so.

Sweet, so if I'm a straight guy who didn't meet a standard of macho, I can call myself a f*g because I get picked on about not being masculine enough? These words have history as well as a common usage and that is not with us.

[Jamie D]

We are drifting off topic.