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Marriage Issues

Started by Simon, September 06, 2013, 11:24:04 PM

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Simon

I haven't been able to get a definitive answer on this anywhere so figured there is no better place to ask than here. My gf and I are going to be going to Washington DC in the next few months to get legally married. I have one letter to get my gender marker changed but in my State it takes two letters from surgeons to get your birth certificate changed. She doesn't want to wait that long (and I'm a pushover lol) so I agreed to go to DC to get legally married with that big fat F still on my documentation.

We live in a State where "gay" marriage is still illegal. Once I get all of my documents changed we plan on getting married legally in the State I reside in. That will probably be around two years from now because of the paperwork I am hiring a lawyer that knows what they're doing to get it done without issues and speak to the judge on my behalf (I'm a pushover and a weenie).

When the time comes to get married as male and female in the State we reside in would we need to go back to DC to get annulled? Would the change of my birth certificate just automatically make the marriage we will already have legal in the State we live in? I have no idea and thought maybe someone else might or has been through something similar.

Also, from what I have seen on Google the Washington DC marriage license does not have gender stated on it. Since my name is legal would she be able to just use the license to go ahead and legally change her last name to mine in the State we live in?

This is all confusing, lol.
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DriftingCrow

Hi Simon, I've done some research on this a bit. I can't answer all your questions now, but I am happy to look them up (probably tomorrow, when I am mentally fresh).

Would the change of my birth certificate just automatically make the marriage we will already have legal in the State we live in?
I am not 100% sure on this. What does NC require to be considered "male"? We'll need to see if you qualify as "male" now, and then determine whether it'll be retroactive once you get your marker officially cleared in your state--if it is, then you might be all set. I doubt there's any case law or statutes on that in your particular jurisdiction. It is something you want to be 100% sure on though, ugh, imagine if your find out later on that your deed isn't valid if you sign on as "tenants by the entirety" with your wife, etc. Also, I've read some cases regarding trans marriages in states where same-sex marriage was illegal, and all of them, no matter the state, didn't recognize the marriage if the person wasn't qualified as "male" or "female" in that state--one such case had a transwoman who was legally female other states and I believe social security (or something) and her birth certificate, but since she didn't have the correct surgeries that particular state required to be "female" there, they deemed that she wasn't legally married in that state to a horrible cost--she didn't qualify as a having legal standing to bring a wrongful death suit when her husband died.
     I'll look  up the annulment bit later, unless someone else here answers it. I find this stuff interesting, so I'd be really glad to look this stuff up. I am also taking Family Law this semester, so I'd also be happy to ask my professor (who's a family law judge) anything we might not be able to find out. Of course, law is very jurisdictionally based, so you'd always want to look up NC specifically.
    I do have this awesome paper on estate planning for trans clients in my dropbox I'd link to you in you're interested. Once you get married, you guys should really go get some wills and powers of attorneys done.

Edit to add: a quick westlaw search brings up outdated cases and articles now that DOMA has been ruled unconstitutional; it is bringing up so many various questions and cases are coming up all over the country. In 2 years, it might not even matter anymore if things go the way I want them too.  :)
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Simon

Thanks buddy, you're awesome. :)

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 07, 2013, 12:05:38 AM
I do have this awesome paper on estate planning for trans clients in my dropbox I'd link to you in you're interested.

Yes, I would definitely like to read that, thanks again!
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tgchar21

As LearnedHand said, thanks to this summer's DOMA ruling the answers to any questions regarding gender and marriage will likely be in flux for the next few years. By the way, for IRS purposes if you got married legally in one state you are considered legally married to them even if you move to a state that doesn't recognize your marriage because they see it as same-sex. (Many of the tax agencies in the "red" states who don't recognize SSMs with a state income tax tied to the federal one are now having to figure out how to handle such couples' tax returns next year!)
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ToriJo

This mess is only going to get fixed if we have a constitutional amendment that mandates recognition of gender (very, very unlikely) or if same-sex marriage is fixed throughout the country.  So I'd suggest supporting the second part.

That said - here's my take on marriage:

In the USA, it's confusing.

First, if you are in a state that has same-sex marriage and you are married in that state or another state with same-sex marriage, you can marry anyone you want to marry and will be legally married, both for federal and state purposes.

If you both changed your markers, one of you has a penis, the other a vagina, and one of you is "M" and one of you is "F" on your gender markers, you are married everywhere in the USA.

If you married heterosexually and unquestionably legally, and one of you changes gender, your marriage remains in all places in the same way as a heterosexual marraige would.

If you marry in a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage, and one of you (but not both of you) changed your gender marker to marry, such that at time of marriage one of you was "M" and one was "F", you may or may not be married.  Marriage needs to be valid in the state it was entered into in, so that law applies.  Right now, states can decide to ban same-sex couples from marrying, so the question becomes, "What does that state consider sex to be based on?"  No state considers only driver's license or other ID.  Different states consider different aspects - the physical body parts, chromosomes (or PRESUMED chromosomes based on original birth certificate), birth certificate, ability to have sex in a typical way as someone else in your gender.  ID is not sufficient - ID is evidence of the reality, but the reality will trump it, with reality defined by whatever the state defines it as.

Likewise, this gets complex because sex/gender is not defined in law (it is defined in some administrative procedures, but the administrative procedures of, say, the DMV have no bearing on the administrative procedures of the marriage office).  There is no such thing as "legal gender" or "legal sex" in clear terms.  In fact, for some purposes, it's possible for a state to consider you male, but for other purposes the same state can consider you female.  So it's up to court cases.  In many places, there are no relevant court cases, so it's up in the air how they would rule.

If the state you married in doesn't recognize you as legally married (which can happen even if they issue a license, if they think it was fraud), then you are not entitled to federal benefits either.

If you married in a place where it was legal, and move to a place where your marriage may be considered a same-sex marriage, I think you still have federal benefits.



My personal (I'm not a lawyer) recommendations:

You want a will and other documents that name your spouse (by name) as having medical, legal, inheritance, etc, rights.

Change every document you can first, if you're seeking a heterosexual marriage.

Just because they ask for a driver's license as proof doesn't mean your marriage is valid if they accept it, if your other documents don't match or you haven't had surgery.  Find out how your state works.  This is asking for trouble for you and your spouse.  Marry somewhere that doesn't have a problem with your marriage at all, and wouldn't no matter what documents you showed them.
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DriftingCrow

#5
Haha, I am just nitpicking now, but your state used the wrong terms in their statute:

Quote§ 51-1.2.  Marriages between persons of the same gender not valid.

Marriages, whether created by common law, contracted, or performed outside of North Carolina, between individuals of the same gender are not valid in North Carolina.

They should've used "sex" not "gender" if they wanted to keep you and your girlfriend from getting married there.  :D
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Quote
When the time comes to get married as male and female in the State we reside in would we need to go back to DC to get annulled? Would the change of my birth certificate just automatically make the marriage we will already have legal in the State we live in? I have no idea and thought maybe someone else might or has been through something similar.

You need very specific reasons and circumstances to get an annulment, such as the marriage was illegal (like you were underage or only doing it to get a green card) or you guys never consummated the marriage, etc. You'd need to use the annulment laws from Washington, D.C. which can be found in Chapter 9, title 16, section 903, which references 46-401.01 and 46-403. (sorry, I'd link it if Panera's internet didn't suck so bad). D.C. law doesn't state that getting married in another state is grounds for an annulment.

So, you can't get an annulment simply because you want to get remarried in another state.

Now, we need to see what NC says, can you get married in NC if you're married in DC (without getting a DC divorce first, since you likely won't qualify for a DC annulment)? It's strangely silent except for a brief mention in 51-8.2 on whether you can be married in another state at the same time, but I am sure we can safely assume that it's a no, but the intention of the law saying you can't be married in another state while marrying in NC is likely for people who want more than one wife or husband, not someone going to marry the same person all over again. In your case, it's basically like signing a contract to buy a specific product in NY and then later on going and resigning the thing in NC. So, would they really say "no you can't get married here" just because you're already married? Would that happen to straight people? Since being married in more than one place to the same person likely isn't subverting the purpose of the law, just saying this is your "first" marriage on the NC application isn't likely going to make your NC marriage automatically void (in a way, it's still your first marriage even if you do it twice), or if you do say "second" marriage and on the line which asks if the first ended in death, annulment, divorce, etc. you could just write in something like "we're still together and we're remarrying here in NC" and then just go and see what the clerk says.

Now, since that's a big sticky issue there on whether you need a divorce of if you can just marry her again in NC, why don't we just see if you can just amend the DC marriage license? After you get all your markers changed, could you go back and amend your DC to say "M" and "F" instead of "F" and "F"? (do marriage licenses even state your sex?) Upon it being amended, I don't see why it wouldn't be valid in NC, assuming you'd be legally able to marry in NC if you weren't married in DC.

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Now question for you Simon, is there any reason why you two have decided to get married before your marker changes? Is it mainly for tax purposes (only your federal taxes would be affected if you continue living in NC after your DC marriage)? If you want to marry for other purposes-like, confirming your bond together-could you just have a ceremony to celebrate your commitment and then get legally married once you change your markers?

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And, I am also just adding in for people who don't know me, that I am not an attorney, and even if I was, law is very jurisdictionally based so whatever is said here on Susan's might not be applicable elsewhere. Everyone, including Simon, is encouraged to see a licensed professional in his/her own jurisdiction.  :)
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ToriJo

Just one note - there is federal precedent (and often state) that basically equate "gender" and "sex" in the law - the courts recognize these as the same thing (yes, that's an infuriating thing about courts sometimes).  So be careful trying to draw a distinction between "sex" and "gender" when interpreting the law.  But I'm not a lawyer either, so I agree consulting with a local attorney is the best idea.
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mrs izzy

Just something i want to throw out there, i know there are couples who are going around to get married in every state of the union. So i do not think that you need to worry about annulment. I think you only need to do that if you plan to marry someone other then your current spouse?

Do not know but as other said mybe see a lawyer.

Izz
Mrs. Izzy
Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/
"Those who matter will never judge, this is my given path to walk in life and you have no right to judge"

I used to be grounded but now I can fly.
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DriftingCrow

Quote from: Slanan on September 08, 2013, 10:23:24 PM
Just one note - there is federal precedent (and often state) that basically equate "gender" and "sex" in the law - the courts recognize these as the same thing (yes, that's an infuriating thing about courts sometimes).  So be careful trying to draw a distinction between "sex" and "gender" when interpreting the law.  But I'm not a lawyer either, so I agree consulting with a local attorney is the best idea.

Oh yes, I know that lol.  :D
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DriftingCrow

Okay Si

I asked the judge and this is what he said:

after you get your markers changed, you should get remarried so it would be recognized in NC. You don't need to get the previous marriage from DC annulled/divorced because since NC doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, they also wouldn't recognize a divorce or annulment.

:D
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Simon

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 09, 2013, 04:52:04 PM
after you get your markers changed, you should get remarried so it would be recognized in NC. You don't need to get the previous marriage from DC annulled/divorced because since NC doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, they also wouldn't recognize a divorce or annulment.

Thanks! That actually works out better for us because if you're married in DC you have to go back to be divorced in DC. To get the marriage license there takes a processing time of three business days (you have to be present and they won't mail it) so hate to see how long we'd have to be up there to divorce, lol.

I wonder how our taxes will work though. Federal will recognize us as legal partners but then there's State taxes to configure. Currently we're paying back over three grand to the IRS because she counted me on 2012's taxes and we got audited. This should take away that ruling, booyah! lol



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DriftingCrow

I believe you can file jointly on federal, but separate on your NC state return. :)
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