Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Sexuality and Gender

Started by Stella Stanhope, August 09, 2013, 02:14:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stella Stanhope

Ello everyone!

Righty ho! The following isn't exactly graphic, but it's descriptive about my sexuality. Might make an Edwardian blush, not perhaps not anyone from post-1970. I'm quite a closet prude myself though, ahaha! So this is very difficult to write!

I seem to have two sex drives within my person, which each go with the two different identities I have. However, both identities and drives belong to the same person. I, as a person, do not change (still the same character) but my perspectives do change, as does my appreciation of things sexual. Any of this sound familiar so far? :-p

At seven, at school during PE, I used to want to wear the girl's gymnast outfits, as they seemed pretty. There was also an air of excitement about wanting to do this that I didn't understand. As I was nowhere near puberty at the time, I wonder whether this was sexual and what it meant.I don't remember having any crossdressing fantasies apart from this at this age. My only noticeable trait was that I really loved my long hair.

~~~

Later on, at around ten, I had a best friend who I used to do everything with, we were very close as friends. At my house he used to stay over and we'd sleep in the same bed, as I only had one double & no spare rooms. It never felt strange to me sharing with boys my own age though. However, when my best friend used to stay over, I sometimes used to dream/or actually experience my friend touching me sexually (I recognised that this was "sexual" but didn't have a proper grasp on what it meant). These experiences felt odd, but also comforting, a bit dis-concerting but also strangely natural. I still however am not sure to this day whether I dreamt them or they really happened. But what matters ultimately is how I felt about the experience.

I hit puberty (about 14) and started being interested in girls, however at exactly the same time, I felt a strong drive to want to cross-dress, especially sexually. I would imagine myself being restrained  (tied up) and wanting to wear things that would constrict my waist (corsets basically, yet I had no idea what the concept of a corset was until I was about 15). However I would be thinking about girls I fancied, yet I needed the tactile feelings and to feel delicate and helpless in order to feel properly turned on.

This has carried on throughout my teens and into my twenties. It took me a long time to feel comfortable actually having sex with females, as it just never felt right and I was too nervous. Since having partners and having sex, I've noticed that I do enjoy being the "pitcher" as a straight male would, but that I don't seem to want to identify as the man as such. I'm uncomfortable and find it hard to get turned on unless I feel pretty in some way and I also need to be kissed a lot and experience lots of tactile sensations. Straight girls I have been with have said that physically I act like any straight guy would in bed, but yet the "triggers" and the things that seem to really turn me on remind them more of themselves. A bisexual girl I dated said that she felt she needed to treat me like another girl in order to get me to perform like a man.

~~~

When I date girls, my automatic reaction used to be try and prettify myself and appear more delicate etc, until I realised that this was exactly the opposite behaviour that straight girls look for in a straight man! So I started copying how my other male friends attracted girls, which helped to conform me a little more.

Though I am highly attracted to women in a physical sense and only go for women, I have always felt... "receptive" to male attention. It just has always felt natural to want to look attractive in front of guys who I've mentally acknowledged are attractive in some way. I don't get turned on by looking at guys, but if they say certain things to me or behaviour a certain way, its like they are pushing buttons in my head, and I start to feel attracted. This totally freaks me out, as I don't understand it. It's like an override function for my straight sexuality that I can't really control. However, whoever I'm attracted to - I am still the same person, and I still feel the same faintly androgynous identity.

My attraction to women feels very physical, very mechanical almost. Feels natural though and I adore getting intimate with women. When I am feeling more feminine and my attraction seems skewed towards more male attention however, the feelings are more emotional and more mental, and I can feel the switch between drives.

~~~

Can pre-natal estrogen exposure make your body more sensitive and therefore you have a more "feminine" sex drive and arousal pattern?
What EXACTLY is a male sex drive, what is it like having a male sex drive?

I don't feel any more manly when I'm with a woman though, though I feel satisfied when I please a woman using my male parts. My "attraction" towards males occurs when they make me feel more delicate and pretty and they want to give me more attention than I'd get if I were with a female. However, recently I dated a girl and we both wanted to play with gender.  It was wonderful being able to be with a girl, please her and also get my own attention and feel more feminine. Once again I didn't feel any more masculine even though I enjoyed it. I do increasingly think about guys however, where I am the female. 

What is real?!  :-\  Do I have a default straight female sex drive with masculine drive bolted on at puberty? Or is it the other way around? Or am I just ultimately bisexual and androgynous... Interested to hear everyone else's own thoughts :-) 




There are no more barriers to cross... But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis... I gain no deeper knowledge of myself. No new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.

When you find yourself hopelessly stuck between the floors of gender - you make yourself at home in the lift.
  •  

Kia

I hold that sexual orientation is just made up, people are just sexual and we know what we like. Some people like men some women some both and others neither. Being trans* and non-binary just makes orientation difficult to place in the binary-based sexuality scale.

I'm attracted to a lot of people but really need an emotional romantic element to really get sexually involved with someone. The person's gender isn't all that important for me as long as I like them. I was never into sex as a man being the dominant partner was just not my cup of tea. I'm much more sexually receptive and when I got over my own "me big man" conditioning my sex life became much less awkward, and that was also when I gave up on being straight or gay it was just so hard to figure out. I guess now I could be pansexual but I just like sex and know my standards and that's enough.

sex shouldn't have these hang ups, as long as you know what you like and have fun I don't think it matters much who it's with.
  •  

Lo

Sex drive is... sex drive. There's really no such thing as different "kinds" of libido for different genders. It all comes down to basically the same hormone for everyone anyways.

Orientation is a myth IMO, albeit a very useful myth that most of us need to help us navigate intimate relationships. To put it bluntly, it's an approximation of what we think is in the black box when we shake it around.

I'm ace, so sex with anyone has never come naturally, the desire to do so was never a natural part of my psychology. I thought about it a LOT, watched porn, wrote and drew porn, but still, it never occurred to me that it was something that real people did in real life and was normal. To me, it was a made up thing that people did in books and movies. Sex itself became a fetish to me; basically everything I'm into is a fetish, meaning that I am happy to think about it all day long, but it's not really something I can ever do with someone because I love them or something. It's kind of hard to explain.

If I had to break down my attraction to men and masculinity, it would be mostly aesthetics-- I like the voice, the body language, the way the negative space around them is situated. I like cocks and balls. I like upper body strength and stubble and the smell of old spice. I like the balding patterns. But because I'm ace, I'm generally content to sit and look; I don't even masturbate anymore, so looking generally gives me the satisfaction I need. Going from that to being in bed with someone... I don't know how that happens. It happened to me, and I still have no idea how I made that jump, beyond him just up and deciding for the both of us that sex could be added to our relationship. Kissing, sex; those things I have a very poor concept of in my own head, and it just would have been impossible for me to not just conceive of how to start doing those things, but actually start doing them without him "showing me the ropes" in a very rudimentary, not-sexy kind of way. He was teaching me to speak a language I thought was made up for fictional stories that didn't actually have a grammar structure. I still barely speak it well enough.

It's weird, though-- ever since being taken off the "dating market", I've gotten a kind of satisfaction from knowing that I no longer have to think about it, that my orientation and attractions no longer really matter to the outside world, and that my book has been closed, so to speak. I guess that's a particularly ace way of thinking about things, though lol.
  •  

vegie271

Quote from: Kia on August 09, 2013, 03:51:49 PM
I hold that sexual orientation is just made up, people are just sexual and we know what we like. Some people like men some women some both and others neither. Being trans* and non-binary just makes orientation difficult to place in the binary-based sexuality scale.

sex shouldn't have these hang ups, as long as you know what you like and have fun I don't think it matters much who it's with.



But the orientation scale is in the vocabulary and easy to use - just because there are some people who are fluid or non-binary does not mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater - is there really a problem with simply adding what we know now to what we knew before? Even here You are admitting there are people at each end of the scale - those ARE binary people and they still wish to be acknowledged. I am a lesbian and it bothers me to hear someone seem to call my "orientation" a "fetish" or "hang-up" as I believe I was born this way.




Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 09, 2013, 02:14:38 PM
I hit puberty (about 14) and started being interested in girls, however at exactly the same time, I felt a strong drive to want to cross-dress, especially sexually. I would imagine myself being restrained  (tied up) and wanting to wear things that would constrict my waist (corsets basically, yet I had no idea what the concept of a corset was until I was about 15). However I would be thinking about girls I fancied, yet I needed the tactile feelings and to feel delicate and helpless in order to feel properly turned on.



I have never been into BDSM as a sub - but I did cross-dress in childhood. I don't this actually says anything forcefully about you though - just a start.



Quote
This has carried on throughout my teens and into my twenties. It took me a long time to feel comfortable actually having sex with females, as it just never felt right and I was too nervous. Since having partners and having sex, I've noticed that I do enjoy being the "pitcher" as a straight male would, but that I don't seem to want to identify as the man as such. I'm uncomfortable and find it hard to get turned on unless I feel pretty in some way and I also need to be kissed a lot and experience lots of tactile sensations. Straight girls I have been with have said that physically I act like any straight guy would in bed, but yet the "triggers" and the things that seem to really turn me on remind them more of themselves. A bisexual girl I dated said that she felt she needed to treat me like another girl in order to get me to perform like a man.



This may not be anything more than a byproduct of the fact that you have a certain body that you "must use" during the act, you pretty much don't have a choice of what you can do if you are going to have sex if it is going to be pleasurable at all or if you are going to have any kind of orgasm. (at least until you have had HRT for a fair amount of time)




Quote
My attraction to women feels very physical, very mechanical almost. Feels natural though and I adore getting intimate with women. When I am feeling more feminine and my attraction seems skewed towards more male attention however, the feelings are more emotional and more mental, and I can feel the switch between drives.



I hear a lot of Bi people tell me they have different types of attractions towards the different genders  ;D




Quote
Can pre-natal estrogen exposure make your body more sensitive and therefore you have a more "feminine" sex drive and arousal pattern?
What EXACTLY is a male sex drive, what is it like having a male sex drive?


What is real?!  :-\  Do I have a default straight female sex drive with masculine drive bolted on at puberty? Or is it the other way around? Or am I just ultimately bisexual and androgynous... Interested to hear everyone else's own thoughts :-)



? I don't know I consider myself female - my drive to be female  and I had the pre-natal exposure


and to me - really yes you sound pretty much like a bisexual to all the best descriptions I see.



  •  

Lesley_Roberta

Well this damned body is male built, but I am a woman and I like women.

A lot of the OPs post sounded like they might just be another lesbian stuck in a male shell and unable to realize their interest in women and female behaviour just makes them like me, a frustrated female trapped in a male form. It would explain why you respond like a woman, yet prefer women not men.

I don't want a man, but, I'd love to be treated like a woman by them, it would merely reinforce my own image of myself in the process. Basically 'thanks boys, but I'm not interested in you'.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Stella Stanhope

Oh, I agree, the whole needing to classify each person's orientation is essentially pointless. Its interesting seeing the whole system from this no-man's land actually, I used to be very hung-up on "straight males like this and straight females like this" and all that. I couldn't get to grips with any deviance from a logical point of view, it just didn't make sense until I realise it simply doesn't has to. It just is.

I am increasingly more fluid now as a result, and believe that, most likely we can be simply sexual beings with attractions independent to genders and biological needs.

I'm not sure I am a lesbian ultimately though, as I don't mind taking the male role, it initially feels just right.... its just that every so often (though regularly) I just have no interest in being the guy, and I'll want to be the girl. My attraction for the girl I'm with can totally disappear unless she can treat me like the girl for a bit. 

I feel increasingly independent from my genitalia, sort of seeing it as a useful tool but yet it doesn't define me. I may have "big man syndrome" too as I can't get my head around what it would be like if I dated a girl...as a "girl" myself. My male part of me seems horrified at the idea of being identified the same as the "target", yet technically it could solve a few relationship issues that can arise when I date solely straight girls.

Yep, it can be lovely getting male attention if you want it, nice ego boost and also validation as well. I do find that that its a lot more emotionally rewarding getting interest from guys as opposed to girls. Dating as a guy feels a largely depressing process, you have to conform too much to attract the girl, and then you have to stay pretty stereotypical to keep them interested. Any deviation and the girl will assume your gay or not alpha enough etc. Guys don't generally seem to care whether you're a bit eccentric or different as long as they can score with you. Which is kind of refreshing & uplifting in a warped way. At least they like me for myself, rather than for my place in society, what I can do for them and make them feel and what their girl friends will say about me etc. I'd rather be viewed as a precious object to own rather than as a disposal tool.

Please note that the above paragraph is from my experience only, and is not supposed to speak for others, nor am I making sweeping generalisations based on stereotypes. It's just what I've experienced and what I've noticed about dating in general. And I felt a silly need to get it off my chest :p

Feel free to post your own view, of course!
There are no more barriers to cross... But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis... I gain no deeper knowledge of myself. No new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.

When you find yourself hopelessly stuck between the floors of gender - you make yourself at home in the lift.
  •  

vegie271



I see you taking on whatever role you need with who eve you are with - this is fine

you are saying you are attracted to both womyn AND men there is a classic mane for this Bisexual you do not have to take this label - however it does make it easier for people to know what you mean - if you happen to notice there are additional people who are say bi gender os somesuch in your sating sphere you may have to widen your definition but then you with have to spend time telling "the masses" what you mean  - if this is not a problem - who cares what you call yourself - just start exploring  ;D and have fun while you do it

  •  

Lo

I think people should be able to label their sexuality whatever they want, really. At the end of the day, what they call themselves isn't going to have much of an impact on who they actually decide to take home. Orientations shouldn't be these iron-clad designations that follow you around like an SSN.
  •  

Stella Stanhope

I'm saying that whilst I am attracted to both males and females.... It's in a different way, there's a different "trigger" and arousal pattern involved.

The average bisexual that I have met doesn't tend to have different patterns when they fancy either girls or guys, they fancy them in the same "way". They may treat them differently or act differently themselves around them however of course, but their attraction comes from the same place inside them, apparently.

That's the aim of this post, really, to find out whether any others have an internal switch when it comes arousal patterns and how you feel when being attracted to males or females.

Ultimately I'm interested to know if I have somehow "discovered" some sort of female wiring in my brain (perhaps caused by excess estrogen exposure in the womb), and that by exploring this deeply buried wiring I may be awakening more a female sex drive. Or at least elements of female arousal patterns and triggers etc.  Any thoughts?
There are no more barriers to cross... But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis... I gain no deeper knowledge of myself. No new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.

When you find yourself hopelessly stuck between the floors of gender - you make yourself at home in the lift.
  •  

vegie271



I know I am female wired - I have been with males (distant past - requirement of transition back then - dating not sex - I was just loose  ;))  and females and personally when I talk about females I don't care if someone is cis or trans female is female & I do not consider that Pan or Bi nor do I consider myself Fluid or Bi because this behavior is in the past.

Your point is why am I only attracted to females? what wired me this way? and you in the slip sliding way? because both of us are maab and exposed to prenatal estrogen.

I know that there are theories about this, ( have links to brain scans of M2F differences and cis men showing how we are different - not sure I can post (or if it would help))

My guess is each of us gets our brain a little differently wired by the hormone wash because some of us do come out at each end of the binary there are straight trans womyn and Bi, and lesbian, but like you there are some who are fluid

so what you are going though can be a result of this wash making you as you are (the fluidity) - but possibly some of your behaviors are learned.

  •  

kelly_aus

Quote from: vegie271 on August 11, 2013, 08:25:40 PM


so what you are going though can be a result of this wash making you as you are (the fluidity) - but possibly some of your behaviors are learned.



I describe myself as a lesbian, but it's actually a little more complicated than that. I have a physical attraction to both men and women. But I only find myself emotionally attracted to women. I lived much of my life as an apprently gay man and I wonder if my physical attraction to men is a learned behaviour.
  •  

Stella Stanhope

Aha! Most intriguing!

Vegie271 - I can't believe the stipulations that transition used to require, always amazed at how inflexible and potentially damaging they seemed, although I can't say with authority whether they were or not.

Yes, there does seem to be increasing support for the theory of the importance of pre-natal hormones exposure. And there also seems to be mounting evidence supporting this theory too (brain scans of the hypothalamus in both sexes and the digit-ratios for genetic males as indicators, for example). Apparently, sexual orientation and gender identity are established in the first trimester? If so, then that could be the reason as to why there is a direct link between the issues of gender and orientation, but not in the traditional way that people presume (the idea that assumes that you can only be genuinely female-brained if you are attracted to men, for instance).

Annoyingly though, I don't think its possible to detect whether one has a hypothalamus with more male or female characteristics whilst your living? I've heard that its only possible to discover this during autopsies which involve examining the brain directly, despite the advances in MRI technology. Anyone know if this is still the case? The NHS gender therapists still seem to take this view.

CaseyB - yes there does seem to be a similarity, as I don't consider myself bisexual REALLY either, as I've noticed patterns and differences.
I wonder if it'll ever become clear, and only one or the other? Perhaps further experimentation will result in a dominant arousal pattern, with the other "wiring" subsequently being phased out?

With regard to "learned behaviour" - I think that the way I try to attract women is definitely learned, by trial and error and by social demands. I used to avoid thinking about pretty guys as I associated it with gay males and gay lifestyles, which is what I learned from society and the media. So yes, alot of the intricacies of how I approach dating, and what I feel comfortable with, are learned behaviours and the restrictive comfort zones they have resulted in providing me.

The fact that the pre-natal hormone "wash" can potentially be so confirming or disrupting to a person is quite scary. I don't like the sound of being "washed" in too much of either hormone, my brain be dry-clean only, thank you. 


There are no more barriers to cross... But even after admitting this, there is no catharsis... I gain no deeper knowledge of myself. No new knowledge can be extracted from my telling. This confession has meant nothing.

When you find yourself hopelessly stuck between the floors of gender - you make yourself at home in the lift.
  •  

vegie271

Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on August 11, 2013, 09:56:54 PM
Aha! Most intriguing!

Vegie271 - I can't believe the stipulations that transition used to require, always amazed at how inflexible and potentially damaging they seemed, although I can't say with authority whether they were or not.

Yes, there does seem to be increasing support for the theory of the importance of pre-natal hormones exposure. And there also seems to be mounting evidence supporting this theory too (brain scans of the hypothalamus in both sexes and the digit-ratios for genetic males as indicators, for example). Apparently, sexual orientation and gender identity are established in the first trimester? If so, then that could be the reason as to why there is a direct link between the issues of gender and orientation, but not in the traditional way that people presume (the idea that assumes that you can only be genuinely female-brained if you are attracted to men, for instance).

Annoyingly though, I don't think its possible to detect whether one has a hypothalamus with more male or female characteristics whilst your living? I've heard that its only possible to discover this during autopsies which involve examining the brain directly, despite the advances in MRI technology. Anyone know if this is still the case? The NHS gender therapists still seem to take this view.




I can state with authority that was the way it was my therapist was one of the first it was not common to allow you to be a lesbian until the 90's


would these links help? a published study  :)

Neuroimaging differences in spatial cognition between men and male-to-female transsexuals before and during hormone therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751389
Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
[Electroencephalographic changes in transsexualism (author's transl)].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/829048
Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20132527

  •