Quote from: RavenMoon on November 11, 2013, 11:08:19 AM
We will have to agree to disagree on this, but I in no way was trying to insult anyone or imply they don't belong here. I said that too. So everyone, forgive me if I seemed out of line. I was just trying to understand the motivation behind it. 
Labels are dumb and everyone is on a similar but different journey to the same party. So let's all have some cake?
Hope we are still still friends.
Quote from: Shantel on November 11, 2013, 11:28:16 AM
When people begin to parse and over think these various designations as applied to specific individuals and as opposed to how they perceive themselves then arrogance and condescension begins to seep into the conversation and thus do harm to others. I don't want to see it here!
Everyone should be able to identify however she/he wishes and have that identification respected/accepted by others and not be denied a sense of belonging. Furthermore, labels should be self-applied, not foisted onto oneself by others.
That being said, words (including labels) have distinct meanings, which is why they are essential for communication. By denying such distinctions, the words are emptied of meaning. That is totally counterproductive for communication. Just as "MTF" is certainly different than "FTM", so too is "transgender" different from "transsexual." This doesn't mean that one label or group is "better than" others; it's just a different descriptor.
And with labels being merely self-applied descriptors instead of rules for belonging, there's no reason why one couldn't identify with several ostensibly incompatible labels. I can be both a bisexual and a lesbian, because while I'm sexually attracted to both genders, I prefer women. Another member here recently described himself as being basically MTFTM, a man who wishes to identify as a natal female who wishes to transition to a male identity. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend that "bisexual" means the same thing as "lesbian" or that "MTF" is the same as "FTM."
There are lots of people who labels themselves as "transgender" but would hate to say that they're "transsexual." And there are some people who self-apply the label "transsexual" but wouldn't call themselves "transgender." That difference in terminology is worth respecting as much as the identities that people do present. In other words, we are defined as much by what we say that we are as what we say that we are not. Someone like Devlyn should be welcome to share in a thread like this, but doesn't give us license to include her as an example how broad the term "MTF transsexual" ought to be. She has her reasons for not identifying as transsexual, which should be acknowledged and not ignored.
The term "transsexual" was coined to describe individuals who either wished to, or actually were, undergoing body modification procedures such as HRT. On that basis, there was no such thing as a transsexual before the technologies and medicines became available. It's like how there were no gays in antiquity and classical times: The modern concept of homosexuality and queer identities didn't exist back then. In Ancient Greece, homosexual behavior was common among men, but not because they were "gay." To call them "gay" would be an injustice to history and culture. Cross-gender feelings and behaviors have been common among Native American tribes, and they have their own term for it: "two-spirit." If we really respect that, then we can't just point to them and say that they're "transgender," unless that is how they wish to identify.
