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Conservative Christianity and the transgender question

Started by Amelia Pond, August 15, 2013, 10:16:31 PM

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Amelia Pond

Conservative Christianity and the transgender question
Russell D. Moore, The Washington Post, August 15, 2013, 1:57 pm

Laws such as those in California will quickly test the boundaries of society's tolerance for a psychological and individualistic definition of gender. There are reasons, after all, why societies put boys and girls in different bathrooms, men and women on different sports teams...

As conservative Christians, we do not see transgendered persons as "freaks" to be despised or ridiculed. We acknowledge that there are some persons who feel alienated from their identities as men or as women. Of course that would be the case in a fallen universe in which all of us are alienated...

But we don't believe this alienation can be solved by pretending as though we have Pharaoh-like dominion over our maleness or femaleness. These categories we believe (along with every civilization before us) are about more than just self-construction, and they can't be eradicated by a change of clothes or chemical tinkering or a surgeon's knife, much less by an arbitrary announcement in the high school gym.
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DanicaCarin

No Russell, The question is not about what the scriptures say or what YOU believe YOUR God said. Its not about religion, philosophy or even Psycology. Its about why some peoples brain gender don't match their bodies sex(M/F). Every one of the studies done thus far indicate that our brains are physically different in certain areas. This is the FACT that you and your ilk do not want to acknowlage.

::)
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Michelle-G

#2
Actually, I found this to be one of the more intelligent articles I've read about the issue of faith as it regards transgender people.  Unlike nearly every other article on this topic which immediately condemns us and labels us as an abomination this is actually thoughtful and questioning.  There's hope for this guy.

That he expresses these points as questions and not as statements is encouraging.  But the real question is what is it that makes one male or female?

And this is not arbitrary. As a trans person (or more specifically, as a trans person who is comfortable living in a gender binary) I believe that I AM created female.  It's just that the essence of my creation is not in my physical body but rather in my soul (or in my psyche, for those who, like Jung, prefer a more therapeutic term).

And this is the crux of the religious issue!  As long as we equate gender with physical sex this will continue to confound people.  But science and medicine have revealed that these two things are separate.  Acknowledging this is the first step towards reconciling the validity of the transgender experience.

QuoteBut we don't believe this alienation can be solved by pretending as though we have Pharaoh-like dominion over our maleness or femaleness.

In a way, we do.  Religious conservatives tend to believe that gender is divinely ordained and the evidence is found between a baby's legs.  While I agree that a divine plan has determined my gender it's in a place where human eyes can't find it.

And this ironclad bond between sex and gender remains the fundamental problem.  And like it or not, we as humans have, in fact, taken the power of determining gender from God and given it to human doctors, who perform this important task with no more thought and attention beyond a quick search for a penis or lack thereof and a defacto pronouncement of gender.

And while I deplore the tendency of conservatives to accept orthodoxy that contradicts reality I can accept that this is the nature of religion.  Some faith communities have transcended this limitation, others have not.  I'm encouraged that he understands that this limitation is man-made and not spiritual.

As a trans Christian I DO understand that discipleship means an acceptance of who we are as men and women!  And it took me many years to finally accept my gender despite the contradictions of my body.  Once I did accept that my faith became a much stronger and more productive part of my life.

In one sense, our sense of self (which resides in the soul) IS separate from the body, a fact alluded to in various biblical passages. But in another sense our gender identity is inextricably linked to our bodies, and this is why we work so hard to achieve congruence between our bodies and our souls. 

The issue here is the question - "what defines what?".  The conventional thought is that it is body that defines [soul] gender, which is contrary to Christian theology.  We, as trans folks, know that it is the soul which defines all.

We are not surgically altering our genders.  Our genders are enduring and immutable.  What we are altering is our bodies' physical sex.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Michelle-G on August 16, 2013, 08:49:39 AM
Actually, I found this to be one of the more intelligent articles I've read

Michelle, I couldn't disagree more. I thought your analysis was well-thought-out and well-written, but I despise your conclusions.

Preaching that transgender people should encouraged not to live as their identified gender is aggressively hateful.

If I preached, for example, that the gospel of my religion says that all people with paraplegia should not be allowed to use wheelchairs because their condition is the lord's will, and furthermore, questioned laws that require wheelchair access in public buildings, it wouldn't just be a case of a difference of opinion.

It would be evil.

Regardless of how carefully or clearly thought out my conclusions would be, I would be advocating consigning a group of people already suffering major hardship to even further hardship unnecessarily.

There would be pretty general agreement that such advocacy is evil.

Isn't that the same thing this gentleman is doing with his article?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Michelle-G

Quote from: suzifrommd
Michelle, I couldn't disagree more. I thought your analysis was well-thought-out and well-written, but I despise your conclusions.

I can agree to disagree, but I think "despise" is a bit strong, don't you?

I disagree with this writer's premise, but the overall tone of the article is questioning rather than declarative.  Nearly every paragraph asks "is this true?".  One can assume that his readers will emphatically state "Yes!", but in fact he makes very few pronouncements about trans people and more declarations as to what the conventional wisdom is.  By religious conservative standards, this writer could almost be regarded as a sellout!

This is progress.  If we're going to win anyone over with our arguments, it will be people like him who will eventually see reason.

Quote from: suzifrommdPreaching that transgender people should encouraged not to live as their identified gender is aggressively hateful.

I couldn't agree more, but . . .

Quote from: suzifrommdIsn't that the same thing this gentleman is doing with his article?

I don't think so.  Yes, his questions will support the prejudices of those who already have them, but I see an opening with this guy.  If we could meet more people who ASK questions instead of TELL people what to think we'd have more fruitful dialog.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Michelle-G on August 16, 2013, 10:12:53 AM
I can agree to disagree, but I think "despise" is a bit strong, don't you?

Yes. Poor choice of words  :embarrassed:, especially since I have a lot of respect for the depth of your analysis.

Quote from: Michelle-G on August 16, 2013, 10:12:53 AM
I don't think so.  Yes, his questions will support the prejudices of those who already have them, but I see an opening with this guy.  If we could meet more people who ASK questions instead of TELL people what to think we'd have more fruitful dialog.

I do like that, though in his case, I wonder if asking questions were just his gentle way of leading people where he wants them to go. I didn't get a sense that he was inviting dialog. He didn't express an interest in hearing from people with a divergent viewpoint.

My excessive language came from, having a strong feeling there is too much tolerance for hate and misinformation when it's presented as religious belief.

Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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ZoeM

I don't see the argument that transgendered people should try to live as their original gender as hateful at all. Any more than it's hateful to preach that people should not divorce.

Keep in mind, we believe wholeheartedly that we are what we say we are - male and female. Not everyone believes that. And there's nothing wrong with their belief. Aside from that it's wrong, but that last is an opinion.
Thus it is not hateful to express this belief, if (as with 90+% of those who hold it) no malice is afforded. Neither disagreement nor belief are hate. Hate is throwing stones, or refusing jobs, or abusive language on the street. There's a really important difference.
Don't lose who you are along the path to who you want to be.








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Michelle-G

Quote from: suzifrommdI do like that, though in his case, I wonder if asking questions were just his gentle way of leading people where he wants them to go.

Oh, without a doubt!  That's what the free expression of ideas is all about.  But this was a bit different from the "they're all trying to molest our kids!" hate speech that seems to be so prevalent among religious conservatives.

And I use the term "religious conservatives" as opposed to christian conservatives because there's not much Christian doctrine among those who endorse institutionalized hate. That, and this sort of hatemongering crosses religious boundaries.

Quote from: suzifrommdI didn't get a sense that he was inviting dialog.

Not explicitly, but his tone was not antagonistic.  I take that as an invitation, but that's just how I roll.

Quote from: suzifrommdHe didn't express an interest in hearing from people with a divergent viewpoint.

Well, that wasn't the point of the article. But he did recognize that divergent viewpoints exist, and he was careful not to discount those viewpoints.

As trans folk we are sometimes guilty of the same sort of intolerance that we are subject to.  Frequently among religious conservatives there seems to be an attitude of "if you're not for us then you're against us" (no doubt influenced by Luke 11:23), and in corrupted 21st century practice that excludes all diversity - trans, LGB, other religions, political progressives, etc.  We often do the same thing: if someone doesn't embrace us then they're the enemy.

I prefer the obverse side of that idea from Mark 9:40 that states "for whoever is not against us is for us."  Much more inclusive and keeps the opportunity for dialog open.

Quote from: suzifrommdMy excessive language came from, having a strong feeling there is too much tolerance for hate and misinformation when it's presented as religious belief.

There is!  Fight the hate, but don't be consumed by it.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: ZoeM on August 16, 2013, 10:57:35 AM
I don't see the argument that transgendered people should try to live as their original gender as hateful at all. Any more than it's hateful to preach that people should not divorce.

Actually, I think that's aggressive too, especially if it involves advocating against laws that give women the freedom to leave abusive husbands (which historically did happen from the pulpit).
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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