How long can an MtF reasonably keep passing as a male?

[Jamie D]

Sorry if I sound unduly negative. 

Last week, she explained that she considers my transitioning a form of suicide. After that, I'm honestly having trouble finding reasons to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I can tell you without the slightest bit of doubt, being unable to be comfortable in your gender presentation can lead to suicide.  It is something we see too often.

Becoming your authentic self is more like a re-birth.  You and I are not this collection of flesh and bones.  That's just the vesicle.

It sounds like your S.O. doesn't want to lose the image of you.  But what happens if you lose yourself?

[generous4]

Work was the hardest, for me.  I went boy mode for years through various methods, finally binding.  Boy did that hurt.  But it turned out OK, and my boss has been great about it, I am transitioned at work 100% now.

I think the main thing for you should be to keep talking with your wife, us here in the forum, your medical and counseling people.  That way, you can walk forward with intelligence and (hopefully) with grace.

[Cindy]

I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

[MadeleineG]

I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

I don't blame her. I have a lot of compassion for her situation. Spouses have genders, too. I just wish things weren't so charged

[Sammy]

I just have to say... to me it speaks of an extremely sick culture if losing weight gets people asking if you're sick... especially since in America the people asking that would most likely be overweight (=in poor health themselves) just something that confuses me...
ps. in Emily's picture she looks really healthy and she could lose another 10 lbs and still be healthy and nowhere near underweight... so why would people think she's sick...

Well, I am from Europe actually . But thanks for the compliment. The reason people think that I might be sick... when I was trying to live as a guy I really did some effort, so I was usually going for L size clothes - and some of them did not fit because I had wide shoulders and long hands (well I still have long hands, lol). Most of my bulk - I was comfortably within 77 kg and sometimes going a bit overweight to 83 kg was muscles and only then fat.  Some day I will make my before and after post and You all will see.. I was not tall, but broad fecker with quite pronounced facial features and dress style with an attitude "Dont even think about it". So, now when I got down to 68kg and S/M size clothing, and lost about 1,5" from each side of my shoulders... People who had not seen me for a year - they did notice. But they had no idea what is going on. So, if they have curious minds they are going to search for some explanations - and because changing my gender would be the last thing they would ever think (told You, I was quite badass...), so they figure out all those nasty theories .

[Sammy]

Oh, okay oh and I'm sorry I didn't mean to assume ^^; Ireland? hey, do you think that your 'machoing it up' might have been an overcompensating attempt at fitting into the male gender role before you realised it wasn't your gender? I read someone's intro or a writing of their journey and their self-realisations or something like that here where they said that was the case for them ~and I really think it's probably pretty common~

Nope, I am from Latvia . Huh, You are absolutely right - it is not even common - it is sadly, but typical. Ever since I was self-conscious I knew that something was wrong and I desperately wanted to be perceived as a girl by my parents. That never worked and when my puberty was over and my system was full with testosterone and I got tired of being an exercise for boxing practices, I thought that if I cant be that frail and petite princess then at least I can play my part in the fairy tale and become that knight in the shining armor (as I read recently – one of the epitomes or even the Holy Grail of masculinity). Pretty typical, though. I never was macho (all my female guts detested that), but rather the chivalry type. I also learned horse-riding, archery, sword and stick fighting, hand-to-hand fighting and using small firearms. And since I never backed down if I saw someone in trouble - so I was lucky to live out most of those fairy tale fantasies as far as they could be applicable in 20th century...
But that all was just living a big lie and gender dysphoria came back – as it always does. And this time I surrendered and did not fight back. So, at the end of the day, I still might get lucky and wear one of those nice princess dresses – I only need to drop another 10-15 lbs and loose some upper body muscles. And if I will get in trouble some day – I still have that ,,knightly" training .

[LilDevilOfPrada]

I will add my little opinion here. Techically you could pass for male permanently even on HRT, remember your bone structure wont change etc.. So HRT wont make people go "wow you look like a woman or is it just me?" There are many different people in the world and we all respond differently, I mean if you already look fem then well yea HRT could ruin you passing as male.

Then there is age, tone of voice and manner. If you act like a man, sound like a man and appear to be a man you will be man to others. No one honestly will intensly look at you on some weird point out the t-girl challenge or anything so you shouldnt worry. I started HRT at 16 its been 3 years now but 2.5 on E and well tbh I look male, very broad shoulders and a handsome face  so no one guesses otherwise. I mean HRT only gave me breasts and wide hips not much else this is how it works you never know what you'll get.

So all you need hide is your breasts and dont act paranoid then you will be just fine passing as male.  This also assumes you don't wear make up etc in man mode.

Note: not trying to say you will always look male but hey HRT isnt magic just hormones dont let yourself believe they will make it all better.

[Zumbagirl]

Speaking as someone who has a good 15 years of hormone therapy under my belt I can say this. If you have long hair and no facial hair then chances are pretty good you can be read as a chick on the streets. The effects of hormones on the face are lost if you still have a large amount of facial hair.

You can take all the hormones you want, but if your name is Ralph and you go to work every day and that's what everyone calls then nothing is going to change no matter how many hormones you take. If you want to get caught then you can definitely get caught and find yourself in a tough position. If you want to conceal your situation then in my mind it can be done for a long time but just remember that people are going to start asking strange questions when they cannot gender a person properly.

What I noticed in my own case is that the electrolysis and at that time I was just starting hormones was making me look younger. I started to look as if time was going backwards for a while. In fact some coworkers were starting to ask questions about what was wrong with me. That's when I knew my days were going to be numbered and I needed to get going with full time.

As far as location to transition, what I have found over the years is to never judge a book by its cover. Hatred or revulsion of trans people does not fall neatly along political or racial lines. For example, I know some flaming liberals up here in Massachusetts that would make a southern racist blush. What matters is the quality of people in your life and your immediate circle such as a work.

In short what I am trying to say is, once you hit a certain critical mass of change, then out on the streets people will start calling you miss because they perceive you to be a miss. At work they will still call you Ralph and he because you still use your current name and ID. You can carry on that charade as long as you want. Once critical mass of change is there, then you need to reevaluate your timetable. A year might be doable, it might not.

[Olivia-Anne]

So here is my two cents! People see what they want to see. If you present as male and to the person they onlly ever knew you as male, then you will be treated like a male. People that seee you all the time just don't notice appearance changes for the most part. Currenty I am 1.5 years on hrt. I only work as a male, and a few familly members don't know yet. You said that you arent starting in the female range, that will prolonge your passability (as a malle). I started hrt when I was able to pass from the very beginning. Even in public, as a male I get only maled. As a woman I get only miss and ma'am. Personalllly I have no idea how people don't know but, if they aren't looking for female quallities they won't find them. As I believe it was heather that said the mental and emotional changes willl be the hardest to kkeep under wraps. Good luck with you S/O.
<3 Liv

:disclaimer: this was typed on my phone, sorry for errors.

[Tessa James]

I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

[Antonia J]

I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

This 100% ^^

[Eva Marie]

I have to echo what Cindy said in that our significant others, family and friends can understandably be dealing with a tremendous sense of loss and grief.  We created a life and a person, no matter how inaccurate, in which they became invested.  They thought they knew us well and some will even be angry about not getting it.  Not to suggest we should take abuse or go back but to give folks a chance to regroup and recover from what can be a shock.  Apparently some of us "played that part" very convincingly.
Being at the senior side of this I feel some empathy for what the SOs go through.  I spent decades in fear and denial creating a man that was hard for me to let go of.  After knowing me for 30, 40 or 50 years I want to give people time to adjust, it took me a lifetime. 
Loving someone means, IMHO, that we want the best life for them too and the best may to not be with us?

This is right on the money. I am faced with some tough decisions based on me doing boy mode so well for so long.

[BunnyBee]

It's pretty unpredictable.  Some people have a window of only a few months, some have an indefinite window.  It all depends on your body type, your height, your chemistry, how masculine acting you can be if you want to... so many things really.  My personal experience was that while I could pass as a woman almost immediately, 3-4 years later I could still pass as a feminine man if I wanted.  Why?  Because I am tall and I haven't had the best breast development in the world.

Your hair makes an enormous difference (same with beard shadow) so if you are bald you could probably pass as male for however long.  People will see a male there if you have obvious facial hair, no matter how feminine everything else about your presentation is.  If you use a very deep voice, it will be nearly impossible for people to see a woman there.

With regard to your wife, she is going to feel like her husband has been lost to oblivion and will go through a grieving process accordingly.  You can't protect her from this or talk her out of it.  You know your old persona did not reflect the person within, but to her it was a real person, whom she fell in love with, and realizing that he is going away is going to be very hard for her.  You can mitigate her pain by taking things slow and being patient with her, you can do things (like not make some common silly mistakes) to not make it worse than it has to be, but you can't save her from her grief.  You can stock up on ice cream, you can give her many hugs, you can be emotionally supportive, let her cry with you, let her yell at you, tell her you wish things could be different, things like this can help her get through it.  Whether you play the role of the perfect spouse through this phase or not, how your relationship will look on the other side of it is anybody's guess.  Be prepared for the worst.

BTW, sometimes the worst outcome looking forward is the best outcome looking back.

[KabitTarah]

I have to admit of being understanding of SO who have problems when we transition. Unless they knew about us before the relationship became permanent, then they have been given rough deal.

I do not mean that in a criticism way, just practical opinion.

If a woman thought she was marrying a men, is it surprising she gets ->-bleeped-<-ty when she finds she married another woman?

This is understandable completely. I've vowed not to make any permanent, permanent changes (yeah... I'll be doing Laser) until my relationship is sorted and my health in order. If that never happens it's as much my fault as hers. Right now I'm begging just to remain friends. She's holding her love as a bargaining chip... and refuses to have anything to do with a man "prancing around in dresses" (her words). She has started offering that in-private is OK ... which was something she was adamantly against not so long ago.

Unfortunately, as the OP, I know I'm destined for at least HRT. It's a question of when, not if.

[Sammy]

Does everyone in Latvia speak decent English?

It seems Latvians definitely do have certain reputation... But if You are from Ireland, then I am not surprised about this. No, I am not surprised at all... Not the best bunch of our guys You are having there, but at least they are not hanging around here anymore . But there are a lot of decent, hard-working and intelligent people too - its just that several black sheeps are making up that ill repute for the rest.

[Sammy]

Oh no I'm not from/in Ireland xD I was just guessing you might be tbh it was mostly because you used the word 'fecker' xD

yeah usually the bad seeds are also the loudest most visible...

Actually, I learned that word - fecker - from my Second Life acquaintaince who is Dutch .

[Sammy]

haha xD that's interesting~! ^^

World is really getting smaller in this millenia, is not it?

[Azusa John]

I'm having a disagreement with my spouse and I feel pretty strongly that she's arguing from misinformation. I'd appreciate the input of those more knowledgeable to help me resolve this.

I would like to start HRT ASAP. I have an endo referral in the works and, assuming that leads to a px, I intend to fill it. My wife, however, is pressing me to delay for a year. Her priority is moving back to the big city and she is very concerned that by transitioning in a conservative, small town, we will be ostracized here and I'll never get the decent job references I need to get out. My proposed compromise is start HRT, but delay any kind of workplace transition until we can move (a year, maybe two). She's convinced that this isn't possible. I suspect strongly that it is. I'm 32 years old and not exactly starting from the feminine end of the spectrum.  So my question is this, how long could I reasonably continue to work in male mode while on HRT? At what point would things simple become impossible to hide?
Maddy

Well the answer is that you won't know until you try it.  But look at what the F2M people do and learn what techniques they used to disguise their femininity.

[KabitTarah]

RE: Wives... remember, they're grieving. I'm certain my wife has entered the bargaining phase of grief. She's trying to win me back by holding back her love -- about the only thing she can hold from me. We're much closer now than we were a few weeks ago and I'd absolutely love to stay with her -- even if it's an upstairs/downstairs platonic (and open) marriage (at which point I'll find a bed). Even separation as friends would be better than what she wants right now.

[...]

I hope that I can feel enough comfortable with my degree of transition to proceed with living as a female.  I genuinely dislike living as male (although I don't seem to have the same degree of dysphoria that many transgenders feel).  It becomes a question of whether I would feel more comfortable in that manner, or if I could cope with the occasional odd look or unkind comment.

I am already encountering a few slight difficulties.  I've been (blessed?cursed?) with significant breast growth very early in HRT.  So far, I'm sure I can hide them once the cooler weather starts, but until then I have to struggle, and occasionally cook in several layers of clothing.  I've thought of binding, although the consensus among our fine FTM friends is that binding is really a bad idea if you are planning to keep and display your breasts.  Binding will disfigure breasts.  It could be a significant challenge to continue to hide breasts if I choose to stay in male mode.  I can't bear the thought of breast reduction surgery, but it might be the only realistic option.  Hope I don't have to make that choice someday.

Other minor issues: 

-Growing longer hair can be a challenge.  It is most difficult when it is only partly grown long, that awkward in-between point where one is just shaggy and unkempt.  I would have to choose and/or accommodate longer hair in permanent male mode.  Hair growth on E is a bit slower, and hair is softer and finer.  I really like the look and feel of it, but it doesn't help to reinforce a masculine presentation.

- My facial features are starting to change.  The overall shape is different, my skin is softer and the texture is changing.  Perhaps the most striking difference (to me anyways) is the look in my eyes.  I'm starting to look female!!  That one can be hard to hide - heavy-framed glasses or a permanent frown help a lot, but are no fun.

I'm sure there are many other changes that could be telltale when presenting a false male.  However, that is essentially what I've done my whole life, it's not like it will be any harder, just different.

From what you say of your wife, I would have to join the majority opinion here and say her motives do sound a bit suspect.  I hope you can maintain both a successful, happy marriage and a gender transition.

You sound like me... about 3-9 months from now (if my personal timeline is accurate). I hate my male body and want breasts... I will start HRT at some point. On the other hand, my dysphoria is nowhere near what I see online. I would never contemplate suicide, but I now remember my teenage dysphoria, or at least some of the actions I took because of it ... and it was that bad. I personally think that by hiding it for many years, most of us find a coping mechanism that works temporarily. Mine lasted through 10 years of happy marriage. Since coming out, my dysphoria has grown and I've made some minor changes that I know are not enough for the long term.

And, though I want it, breast growth is my fear. I think I'll be forced out at work pretty quickly, based on family size. I know that's not the only factor, but I have the build from my mother's family and they were all quite blessed in that department. I also have some gynecomastia, so I wonder if that will kick off growth more quickly.

Growing long hair is something I tried a couple of years ago (another cry for change, I think). People notice, but it's just people noticing hair... no big deal. If you're already presenting female, I can see it being more difficult... look for transitional hair styles and get a stylist. I plan on doing that in a few months when I have a bit of growth. The best part is that nobody will notice or care at work - since I've done it before.

Laser is my other concern. I go for my consult in 2 weeks. I think that will be more noticeable, though not for a while. The worst I really expect, though, is a comment/question about close shaves. Maybe I'll say I've started learning the straight razor

None of it is HRT, though. . . I'm afraid to start, but also wish I could start sooner than later. In my case, I totally understand all the reasons to wait (weight, health, marriage).

[KabitTarah]

Health? I would say the older you start the worse it is for your health... Mental and physical~

This I can speak to, at least. Age is important, but there's not much difference between say, 35, 36, or 37. There's a huge difference between starting this at BMI "Obese I" (where I was), "Overweight" (where I am), and "Normal" (where I'm going). There's a huge difference in taking HRT alone, and taking it with diabetes and high BP medications. I am young enough and (now that I'm out) driven enough to reverse the diabetes (my A1C is now < 7 - and that was after 2 weeks of diet). I hope to (I'd almost say expect to, but I can't predict that) come off meds in 3 months... definitely by 6-9 months. My GP will be shocked at the changes when he sees me next (2.5 months from now). I told him about my transgender issues.

So yes, age is a concern, but it cannot be a primary variable unless we're talking 5-10 year waits. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know!


Your other question, I can't really speak to directly. I'm in the middle of the situation and I have no idea if I'm doing the right thing, but one doesn't just get up and leave a wife and kids. I hope to work through this and separate as good friends. I want more than that... she wants more than that... and neither of us can have what we want... and I also worry about when/if I switch to liking boys (eeeeew says the pre-pubescent girl in me  ). I still want to be friends, close friends, and parents together. I am working on that, and making some progress. It is important to me, and may keep me sane once I'm totally on my own. I don't have super high expectations (not any more... before I told her, sure). She won't become a lesbian for me. I have a feeling I might not be one after - though I don't know you can predict that.

I can't understand it at all For me it's always been a really black-and-white thing: either it's important enough for you that you are willing to leave all, no matter the cost, and commit fully, or you might as well not even start (this is the part that isn't meant to be offending, that wasn't me telling anyone that's how it must be for them, just me showing how I think about it) I'd like to understand the reasons for someone to "semi-commit" a little better if possible~ ^^

I wouldn't consider it semi-commitment. I don't believe in half measures. Call it taking it slow - which, if possible, I think is generally recommended. I am fully committed... but realize there are things I personally need to get in order before I start. I think it's the same for those who start HRT and want to hide it for a while. They've started their journey, but they are preparing their lives to cushion the social blow. That's what I'm doing now, before HRT. I'm still a woman inside... I always was... I just didn't acknowledge her until recently. Now she's coming to the foreground... she's the same person, but changes need to be made. It's easier for those not married, without kids, or without 20 years of adult life built up. At the same time, most of us transitioning now have it easier because we've put walls in place that can be broken down slowly as we transition.

Again... it's all my opinion. I'm no expert - though in some ways I'm trying to learn and become one. If you disagree, especially if you know I'm wrong... please let me know! I have a very narrow view of this world right now.