How long can an MtF reasonably keep passing as a male?

[Isabelle]

Simple answer to your original question. If you have balding on your head in a male pattern and facial hair (or shadow) you will pass as male indefinitely. If your co-workers see you everyday, they will possibly not even notice. If they do, it will most likely be the texture of your facial skin that they point to. Just say you're using skin creme. You can go on hrt and still be a boy. Some people do this. All choices are valid, if we can abide their consequences.

[Donna Elvira]

Health? I would say the older you start the worse it is for your health... Mental and physical~

Without offending anyone, may I ask something? Why transition in secret? Is it out of fear of commitment? Is it because it's too hard to admit to yourself that sometimes you have to let go of one commitment while taking on another? Is it just because of financial reasons (keeping a job, not wanting the publicity of a discrimination lawsuit) or because the idea of letting go your whole life (job, wife, friends) feels emotionally too much to bear? I'd really appreciate answers, I can't understand it at all For me it's always been a really black-and-white thing: either it's important enough for you that you are willing to leave all, no matter the cost, and commit fully, or you might as well not even start (this is the part that isn't meant to be offending, that wasn't me telling anyone that's how it must be for them, just me showing how I think about it) I'd like to understand the reasons for someone to "semi-commit" a little better if possible~ ^^

I don't know how old you are Glitterfly, but suspect that you are pretty young, a time of life when many, if not most, people tend to reason a bit in black and white terms. I also suspact and hope that over the course of your life you will come to realize that in reality black and white situations rarely, if ever, exist. This, by the way, extends to making snap judgements concerning the nastiness of  spouses who are not delighted to discover that the man they married is now to publicly become a woman. 

So, when you talk about leaving all, no matter what the cost, just how far does that extend in your mind?  If living your true gender means losing absolutely everything else that counts for you, do you think it will lead to any sort of happiness or in your mind is doing this an end in itself, independently of the happiness or unhappiness it might bring both to you and the people you love?

You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?

Best regards.
Donna

[Horizon]

Living on a male-exclusive floor in my dorm, I've been quite curious about this very question myself.  I guess I'll get back to you in five or so months :p

[Tessa James]

I don't know how old you are Glitterfly, but suspect that you are pretty young, a time of life when many, if not most, people tend to reason a bit in black and white terms. I also suspact and hope that over the course of your life you will come to realize that in reality black and white situations rarely, if ever, exist. This, by the way, extends to making snap judgements concerning the nastiness of  spouses who are not delighted to discover that the man they married is now to publicly become a woman. 

So, when you talk about leaving all, no matter what the cost, just how far does that extend in your mind?  If living your true gender means losing absolutely everything else that counts for you, do you think it will lead to any sort of happiness or in your mind is doing this an end in itself, independently of the happiness or unhappiness it might bring both to you and the people you love?

You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?
You say very little about yourself in your introduction. Since individual circomstances have a huge impact on how we all go about this journey, now, after close on 400 posts, mostly questions for others, would you care to tell us just a little more about who you are yourself ?

Best regards.
Donna

Best regards.
Donna

Glitterfly, you are intriguing and I second Donna's inquiry.  When I started with a therapist one of the toughest questions I wrestled with was " just how much of living like a man  are you willing to give up to transition?"  In my opinion that question becomes exponentially more difficult when one has decades of previous commitments and profoundly deep relationships, not just baggage.  Still, for me the answers became obvious that to maintain my sanity and mental health I was going to be open, out and live well through the emotional pain.  This is just one reason I am so very grateful for our predecessors who paved the road, became mentors and publicly share their life story.  It further encourages education and readily available resources so that young people and parents know about options and alternatives.  It seems so much better to transition young but that's the perspective from a senior and we certainly hear about teenaged would be transitioners who are thwarted by family.
Back to the thread question, it seems to me that what is reasonable for some to consider is relative to their goals and comfort levels.  I was in a hurry but feeling more calm now and wanting to be mindful of the drama we inhabit.  Being genderqueer I believe we expand the definitions of cultural gender identity and gender roles.  I didn't want to exchange "acting like a man" for some pale imitation of others stereotypes about what is an appropriate woman.  I have had no end of well meaning folks who think I should be wearing granny dresses to my toes and a giant shopping bag.  I think they confuse me with their grandmas;-)

[Joanna Dark]

Glitterfly, you are intriguing and I second Donna's inquiry.  When I started with a therapist one of the toughest questions I wrestled with was " just how much of living like a man  are you willing to give up to transition?"

That's easy: every single aspect. Living as a man turned me into a drug addict. The only time, other then now, that I was okay in life and doing well was when I have been transtioning. From 2004-2008, I basically lived and dressed like a woman. I worked for a woman's magazine, I dressed like a woman, and I was in a relationship with a woman who considered me a woman. She used to say and TELL people that I was her girlfriend and that I a woman with a birth defect. Everyone referred to me a dyke or girl, all the time. It was great. The first time I dressed up with her and her friend, her friend couldn't get over how much I look like a woman if I just put on makeup. She couldn't believe it. we became great friends. But I wasn't on hormones. She thought was going too far. She broke up with me because she dcided she wanted a man. Her words. The fact I couldn't stop crying only reinforced her view of me.

And now, I am giving up all my male privileges, and am treated like a woman by everyone. I have a BF and life has never been so good. My family is becoming more accepting and with a bit of luck, tomorrow I will again be working for a women's magazine.

ow long you can present as male depends on where you start. if you are androgynous and have little to no male features, the answer is not long. if you have male features and are not andro, prolly forever if you present well enough. But that isn't a certainty either.

[Danielle Emmalee]

I like turtles and you should too.

Try not to take this the wrong way but, I do notice that a lot of your posts seem to have a "This is the way I see it, now prove to me how it can possibly be any different for you and make it a good reason or I'll keep questioning it" kind of feel to them.  This may not be how you actually intend to come across but as you may have noticed by the type of responses you get that it does come across that way at least that's how I have seen it.  Do with that what you will.  Not saying you should change, unless you want to see a different type of reaction to your posts.  I know you mean well in the end so please don't take offense at this or take it that I misinterpret your intent, I know it is not as it seems.

[Tessa James]

Thank you Glitterfly.  you acquitted yourself very handily in obliging my request to know you better.  You have done nothing that requires an apology IMO.  Please do indeed continue to be your true self.  I find you are a thoughtful correspondent here and don't feel at all bad about a sense of challenge or inquiry that makes me think something through.  Keep it up girl.
I am delighted to hear about your determination and your recognition of support from your mom and dad. 
We are indeed fortunate and Amazing!

Hugs

[kelly_aus]

I can't do it any more.. I tried a little while ago and it was a complete failure.. lol

I don't move right, I don't talk right and I don't act right..

[Sammy]

I wish total stealth would be an option for me, but given my age, contacts and professional details - I just dont see that possible. But I see the point of complete stealth though in my opinion it is rather important from the point of view of personal safety rather than a way "to please others". Keeping Your job as long as You can - if You have any doubts about getting discriminated after coming out, being able to establish support systems (I was oh so naive when I thought that I will be able to pull this off on my own - that was before I actually started the HRT...) . But this topic is viable for me too, because where I am working – half of my colleagues know about me (but not all of them know that I am on the HRT), the others – majority have no idea. We interact on a daily basis and I am not getting impression that they are confused or smth. Yet, I changed my presentation a bit and all I am seeing now in the mirror is a girl (I need to update my avi, because that is past atm ). So I dont know how much time I have, though I still look good in male waisted jacket... but then I take it off and...

[KabitTarah]

Alice, I don't intend to come across like that and of course I don't want responses where people feel questioned in any negative way

I don't personally believe it's a bad thing to come across that way. That's what smart people do... they have a view of the world based on lots of different stimuli and they can, at best, provide a description of their worldview. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't accept your views.

The difference, to me, is one of grief. If I were treated like I'm treated right now on a normal day... one where I wasn't out to myself, out to her... and if it happened often, not due to some "bad day" she might be having... then yes - I should probably leave my wife. At the same time, I know she's losing a husband, losing a chance at another kid (yeah - she's crazy... wants 4... I think that had some part in my trigger to come out - the dysphoria was always worse when she was trying or pregnant). She has legitimate grief, and she's working through the stages (quickly, really... which I'm glad for). I did some things wrong when I came out to her,  but I'm trying to fix that - I reaffirm my love. I tell her I'm not going anywhere and that the marriage will go at her pace. I still don't think it will work, but I am putting all of my hope in remaining friends with her - perhaps even making an apartment in our house to avoid financial difficulty.

If you say "I Do" to someone, you're saying it for life. I know it doesn't always work out for life - I'm not saying never divorce - but "for life" means you should make the effort to work things out during these times of crisis. I will never stop loving my wife - I've told her that - but together or separate, we have a difficult road ahead. If we separate under hateful circumstances the road will be that much worse for us both.

I also will never stop loving my kids. They are young and resilient. Our separation will hurt them, but a hateful separation will destroy them. If their father dies in their minds (which will entirely be influenced by their mother), they will very likely have horrible lives. My wife and parents are of the opinion that if they grow up with a father who became a woman their lives won't be worth living. My wife and parents will choke the kids with their own anxieties and fears if I don't fix that problem too.

And I'm a woman... that's the easy part to fix - and it's certainly not easy.

Three things to fix and all of them mountains... I can see how some would run away. If I weren't a woman with strength, I wouldn't have any of these problems, and I would have slowly killed myself in a stagnant relationship. If I weren't strong enough to handle this, I'd never have come out about it. I only wish I were stronger earlier in life.

[KabitTarah]

kabit, wow... that puts a different spin on it~ thank you for explaining... complications like that are hard to understand if you haven't experienced them yourself, and I can't even begin to imagine how children would complicate things~ all I can say is I agree that it wouldn't be good if you had a bad falling out and they were left without contact with you and/or being poisoned by their mother's resentment for you... You are strong for trying to balance that all out and for that you can be proud~ trying your best is all you can do, no one can expect more from you~ ^^

Thanks
It is hard, and I wish I could have done this earlier... but that wish is the same as the ones I've been making all my life.

[Tessa James]

I don't personally believe it's a bad thing to come across that way. That's what smart people do... they have a view of the world based on lots of different stimuli and they can, at best, provide a description of their worldview. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't accept your views.

The difference, to me, is one of grief. If I were treated like I'm treated right now on a normal day... one where I wasn't out to myself, out to her... and if it happened often, not due to some "bad day" she might be having... then yes - I should probably leave my wife. At the same time, I know she's losing a husband, losing a chance at another kid (yeah - she's crazy... wants 4... I think that had some part in my trigger to come out - the dysphoria was always worse when she was trying or pregnant). She has legitimate grief, and she's working through the stages (quickly, really... which I'm glad for). I did some things wrong when I came out to her,  but I'm trying to fix that - I reaffirm my love. I tell her I'm not going anywhere and that the marriage will go at her pace. I still don't think it will work, but I am putting all of my hope in remaining friends with her - perhaps even making an apartment in our house to avoid financial difficulty.

If you say "I Do" to someone, you're saying it for life. I know it doesn't always work out for life - I'm not saying never divorce - but "for life" means you should make the effort to work things out during these times of crisis. I will never stop loving my wife - I've told her that - but together or separate, we have a difficult road ahead. If we separate under hateful circumstances the road will be that much worse for us both.

I also will never stop loving my kids. They are young and resilient. Our separation will hurt them, but a hateful separation will destroy them. If their father dies in their minds (which will entirely be influenced by their mother), they will very likely have horrible lives. My wife and parents are of the opinion that if they grow up with a father who became a woman their lives won't be worth living. My wife and parents will choke the kids with their own anxieties and fears if I don't fix that problem too.

And I'm a woman... that's the easy part to fix - and it's certainly not easy.

Three things to fix and all of them mountains... I can see how some would run away. If I weren't a woman with strength, I wouldn't have any of these problems, and I would have slowly killed myself in a stagnant relationship. If I weren't strong enough to handle this, I'd never have come out about it. I only wish I were stronger earlier in life.

Thank you Kabit for giving us an understanding of your profound and honorable commitments.  That is very moving to me and it seems Miss Fixit is on the case.

[DrBobbi]

I'm learning that the biggest change in transitioning is the loss of male privilege. I've been complaining to friends that men have a problem with what I'm doing, but it's dawned on me, that I'm being sent to the "girl's" table, so to speak. Men are far more comfortable speaking amongst themselves-with their own kind about they're two favorite subjects, sex, and aggression (politics, war, Fox news, etc.). Now, completing my fourth month on HRT, I'm looking more female than male and my exclusion is far more acute. Like genetic women, I'm reading way too much into the actions of my former male friends. Men, being two-piece puzzles, aren't that complicated and it's really my appearance. At first I could't wait to get breasts, grow my hair out, and wear fem clothing. Last night I wore jeans, and my leather flight jacket to cover my chest. I slicked back my hair, wore no makeup, and decided not to shave, to hang on the my last vestiges of maledom as I took my on, and off girlfriend to dinner. It didn't work, after staring at me over her Miso soup, she looked scared. Back at my place, with my two dogs jumping over me, she stared at my chest. Finally she said what I knew was on her mind. Despite her insistence she was comfortable with my transition, she doesn't want to date a woman. Nor do I. I got up, threw on a summer dress my friend's had bought me for next year, and walked her to her car. An hour later, while dealing with a family member in the hospital, I received a text from one of my closest friends, a female doc that said she was afraid to be "collateral damage" should someone challenge me for using the beach bathrooms on our long walks. Fear, difficult for me to understand, but very real.mAs much as we don't want to believe, appearances matter.

Time to start living outside of the margins-Living a lie is no life, at all-Zoey Tur

[Donna Elvira]

kabit, wow... that puts a different spin on it~ thank you for explaining... complications like that are hard to understand if you haven't experienced them yourself, and I can't even begin to imagine how children would complicate things~ all I can say is I agree that it wouldn't be good if you had a bad falling out and they were left without contact with you and/or being poisoned by their mother's resentment for you... You are strong for trying to balance that all out and for that you can be proud~ trying your best is all you can do, no one can expect more from you~ ^^

Hi Glitterfly,
First of all, no my post yesterday was not really disapproval even if I admit to finding some of your judgements rather harsh. Actually my thinking was probably very close to what  Alice said to you in her very eloquant response to your questions regarding my post.

Beyond that, the quality of the exchanges on this forum varies a lot. Many people are simply passing through, just getting a few answers to some fairly typical questions. Others stay around longer and the level of communication tends to become somewhat deeper and more intimate. Quite a number of real friendships start here. This however is a two way process and actually can't happen if it's not a two way process. As Alice said very well, in many of your posts you gave the impression that you were asking other people to justify their approach to life, transition etc. without saying anything about yourself. Personally I would not be happy in engaging in an exchange with anyone on such an asymmetrical basis and imagine it might just  be the case for quite a few others. They can of course always refuse the discussion, but as you will probably have noticed, people here are generally very open and try to be helpful. Why? Because that is very much the culture of this forum and that's what makes it such a pleasant and interesting place. Like any successful collective endeavor, it does however require that people adhere to a few basic rules, whether they be implicit or explicit.

Lastly, a few reactions to what you did write about yourself and thank you for doing that, it really did help. It is the last paragraph that caught my attention most:

"Happiness is not tied to having people or things or not having them. Happiness comes from within. If you are unable to be happy without a car, you won't be happy once you get a car. Or a job, or a spouse. If your happiness is conditional to other people, as soon as you lose them, you lose your happiness forever. Happiness should come from within you and extend out to others, not the other way around If you are truly happy, there is nothing outside yourself you cannot let go of and still be happy Transitioning is internal, other people are external. There is no choice, it is very clear: if you cannot be happy within, you cannot make anyone else happy. Therefore loyalty to self must come first, loyalty to others must build on it but not conflict with it. "

I would love to have the opportunity to talk to you about this when you are forty, fifty or older ie. when you have had some real experience of life, maybe had a wife (husband) and children, known what it is like to be completely destitute, seen others suffer because of you etc. etc..

Also I have a wife, children, friends to the extent that I have important relationships with these people but not for a second do I consider them as possessions like the car you mention straight afterwards. I actually find it quite amazing that you would write a car, or a job or as spouse as if all of them were on the same level. (My turn to be amazed by some of the things you say... .

There are effectively hermits who can live as I think I hear you saying ie. totally detached from everything in this world. They are however an exceptional breed so another question, are you a hermit?

If you are not a hermit have you every been involved in a serious relationship with anyone other than your parents ie. a long term relationship of real interdependance?  Do you have children? Have you ever worked in a real team environment? 

I imagine you have heard of Maslow's pyramid describing the hierarchy of human needs from physiological through to self actualization. It sounds like you put all the empasis on self-actualisation but that might just mean that the other, lower level, needs are already taken care of, something you take for granted without even thinking about it. I really don't know but I'd be curious to know  more about your personal situation.

I'm actually not a great believer in the "hierarchical" nature of these needs and can easily imagine people putting self actualization ahead of some of the more basic needs.  So, taking another angle on this question, Tony Robbins, who some may have heard of, describes 6 basic human needs as follows:

1.Certainty/Comfort. We all want comfort. And much of this comfort comes from certainty. Of course there is no ABSOLUTE certainty, but we want certainty the car will start, the water will flow from the tap when we turn it on and the currency we use will hold its value.

2.Variety. At the same time we want certainty, we also crave variety. Paradoxically, there needs to be enough UNcertainty to provide spice and adventure in our lives.

3.Significance. Deep down, we all want to be important. We want our life to have meaning and significance. I can imagine no worse a death than to think my life didn't matter.

4.Connection/Love. It would be hard to argue against the need for love. We want to feel part of a community. We want to be cared for and cared about.

5.Growth. There could be some people who say they don't want to grow, but I think they're simply fearful of doing so—or perhaps NOT doing so. To become better, to improve our skills, to stretch and excel may be more evident in some than others, but it's there.

6.Contribution. The desire to contribute something of value—to help others, to make the world a better place than we found it is in all of us.

The hierarchy of these needs varies from person which makes us all quite unique individuals and it also why we all have very different approaches to a subject like transition or even the way we approach a forum like this... . Going into a transition it is actually well worth thinking this sort of stuff through.

Hope this helps you understand yesterday's post a bit better and looking forward to learning a bit more about you as I am genuinely curious about where you are coming from in your thinking.

Take care
Donna

P.S. I also believe the relative importance of these needs evolves over time. I left absolutley everyone I knew, family, friends etc; when I was 18. I couldn't do that now. 







 

[Antonia J]

I find the existential twist this thread has taken to be absolutely fascinating.   

[Joanna Dark]

-so totally shouldn't have said anything since it ended in a debate-

so: I know who I am, my real life starts after srs and erasure of past, and then also start my committed, deeper relationships, til then everything's kind of temporary~ end of discussion, sorry my posts irritated so many!

I love your posts and you shouldn't apologize for wanting to be stealth. I have the same dream, which I will achieve and in many ways kinda am, as unless I wear a suit, I don't pass as a male.

Also, you should be willing to give up everything for transition. I wouldn't want to, but if I had to choose between being myself and happy for once in my life, like I am now (The BF helps immensely), and staying put in some half-transtion, I would give up everything. Right now, I'm still early in transtion though I am full-time, I may soon have to go part-time at a job for a little until I get established then I will come out. Though, the must have noticed how femme I act and look. The suit didn't magically change my face, it just threw everything off. Plus, guys still stared at me in that way. So that was weird.

[Danielle Emmalee]

Go Turtles!

+1

[BunnyBee]

I find the existential twist this thread has taken to be absolutely fascinating.   

Lol