How to find the reason for being misgendered 0.x% of the time (getting old?)

[anjaq]

I was wondering how to get a hold of this really. Now I am about 15 years after start of transition, 13 years post op and basically things are going all right most of the time. I believe that for most people the idea of putting me in the trans corner does not come up, for an unknown percentage of people it is a suspicion or they are even quite certain but will not tell me so and either be polite or try to just ignore that and treat me just like it was not so - and then there is a small number of situation where I really fail and actually get misgendered openly. Often that is in situations where it is darkish with little light only.
Now - how can I find out what my problem(s) is (are) that get me into these situations and is there a way to find out what that percentage of people knowing but not telling is and reduce it? Guess reducing that is the same issue as with the misgendering.
Having a slight inclination for paranoia, of course I suspect every part of me now - my excess weight, facial features, hairline, residual facial hair in some small spot, weird body language but most of all voice as people rather frequently tell me I have a deep voice, sometimes they ask why (at which point I am sweating and not really giving an answer), sometimes they tell me that they find this great and that I should sing or record tapes. I am not sure I can improve on that a lot - if I would slip back to the really low pitch voice I was using some 18 years ago, the comparison would already be crazy. But I guess I will aim for it. Still, how can I find out what else may need improvements - something I did not think of for the past 10 years or so. Maybe age is taking a toll and I am loosing some features that helped me when I was in my 20ies and early 30ies?
I checked some stuff, but having a professional (?) take a look at face and look for things that are far enough from average to benefit from surgery costs money, assessments with surgeons do also cost money and I am quite sure a voice analysis will cost some money as well. Not to mention they want to "sell" you their surgery or therapy. I am not sure I want to put something along the lines of $150 on the table just for someone to have a look and tell me which parts of myself he or she thinks are "too male". I was wonderin gif there are other ways to find out, or at least which of these "services" are worth that money and at the same time relatively unbiased.

Thank you
Greetings
AQ.

[Janine-Janine]

Relating to other 'aging' thread - and we have a similar timeline. Yeah, I've had a couple of more obvious things happen recently that were AT NIGHT. So that struck a familiar note with me. I've been trying to figure it out.

I think for me relatively androgynous wardrobe (this is a moderately rough area and who wants to stick out anyway?) is one factor. It has happened wearing very dark jeans. I'm told (and I know it anyway) I have a very fine backside but black or very dark makes it invisible in darker lighting anyway. So that's one thing. If you have a good butt, make it noticeable. I've always had a bold attitude re clothes, an arrogance that I can pass wearing anything. Which has mostly been true. It's getting knocked out of me a bit lately, which is a pretty weird feeling.

I think for me, too, my nose (which needs fixing like forever) can stick out quite badly in profile. Both incidents, the viewer would have been seeing me from my bad side. I do have a bad side and it's very bad indeed. Due to deviated septum/crookedness, the one side looks especially bad. One incident was not a 'read' - it was someone asking someone else whether I was X or Y. The other incident was a garbled comment shouted from a moving vehicle. I'm not used to this kind of thing happening so it's getting me down. Also thinking my nu-gauntness is working against me in lower lighting that can emphasise it.

Don't appear to fare any differently in normal lighting situations, overall. In fact I'd have said any mis-reads have dwindled over the years. Because oddly enough, very occasionally people would make a snap judgement re height, corner of eye thing (crazy really; 5'8" is not THAT tall), then correct themselves when they looked at me properly... even that hasn't happened for ages now. So this stuff is a terrible nuisance and a real stresser.

Friend of mine I've known nearly two years, who I hadn't mentioned any of this to, I discussed stuff with recently. He'd had no idea at all but told me he did figure I could be 'menopausal' or something of the sort. But that's all he thought. I think this would be a commentary on facial gauntness mostly. I don't look altogether 'ripe', I guess - I'm wilting a bit.

Sorry, rambling on my pet subject.

[anjaq]

Oh this is intersting - you even are the same height. 5'8 - same here. But not at all "gaunt" which I looked up and means something like skinny? I have the opposite problem there - fat people seem to be a bit less gendered as fat conceils some markers (fat guys look more similar to fat women - same for very skinny people - gender differences ar emore expressed in the "normal" weight range). So I dont have any problems with avgin not enough butt - quite to the contrary - though thats not all new, at the beginning of transition, someone actually told me that I have "good child-bearing hips/pelvis".
So your experience sounds still familiar - I am also not into too much gendered clothing - never had to do this and never really desired too much of that. Definitely not in fall, winter and spring when its cold. For some reason that worked well for a while but recently as you said it is "knocked out" of me as well.

I know this may sound awful to some people in the forum here who are feeling that they are lucky if they "pass" in feminine clothes and with makeup. I dont want to sound offensive, but for me the goal was always to not be misgendered even if I am shaken out of bed and run in a bathrobe to the door to pick up that parcel - or wear unisex clothes for that matter. And at least in some way that seemed to have worked - dont know how high the percentage of "silent reads" are and probably that is really hard to find out but at least I usually did not get weird comments or was misgendered. So just as an explanation to others reading this as to why these seemingly rare occasions do have such an impact on me and as it seems Janine as well.

So at least I know someone who feels the same now. We can now puzzle in unison about why this is happening and why it is happening now. I really wonder if age is a factor. I think until I get any other hints, my plan will be to get to a normal weight range to improve some impression I make on people and I definitely will look more into the voice thingy - a friend of mine who is currently re-/de-transitioning told me that s/he did notice that I have a voice that is not always good but was afraid to tell me and hurt me. Grmbl. So my suspicion hardens that this is what happens easily at night as people then go more for the voice impression with reduced visual clues. Guess its back to square 10 or so (not square 1 luckily) and go again for some vocal training - at least this does not involve surgery but costs "just" training and time and the dumb feeling of having to deal with some trans stuff again in terms of my own life. My next guess would be face - that is the next important thing people perceive when sitting together in the dark. I guess I should check that. I figured however that this can be very misleading. Janine, you say that you think your nose is not good - I personally find some points that I think are bad, then again I try to look at it more rationally and they dont look that bad - ones own self image is tricky - it plays games with me. Others will tell me that there is nothing at all wrong with my face. But these are friends who would not want to insult me or cause me anxiety. this generally is what I think happens many times - said friend thinks it happens a lot actually. That people actually do "know" or at least suspect a trans background for me - as nowadays no day goes by that there is no trans story in the media everyone knows what trans is - but they will just overplay it to not be rude or even to make me feel good. Even people I get to know better than just passing by at the supermarket. Even friends maybe. If I happen to tell them then, they say that they knew all along. Or sometimes people try to very politely hint towards them knowing and try to make me feel comfortable in telling them so that it is out in the open. Still this scares me as of course part of my self confidence comes from being convinced that I do "pass well" generally...

So the questions are still open though - how can I - or we (including Janine) find out what features we do have that create such situations. We can hardly ask the people who misgendered us that way if they are just passing by or are not good friends. Either because there is not time, i dont want to tell any random people on the street about our past and I dont even want to tell this to anyone I meet again either as people always talk and talk and then in short notice all the people around me ger the information and know my past - and I dont even know that they know. argh.

[Janine-Janine]

LOL, yeah, here I've been trying to put weight ON! I was pretty skinny last year. I'm a bit flabby again now - and I'd care not to mention the rubbish (and amounts thereof) I sometimes eat to get there. But... barely an ounce has gone near my face or neck. It's gone back on my lower belly and boobs mostly. So gauntness just refers to my face. I think gaunt face and moderately zaftig body is an unflattering combo I'm currently stuck with.

Obviously I know one problem, being the small lump on my neck, which is a read sometimes in social situations. But not always. I had a period where I was heavier and it did not show at all. It's very small. That was, I think not-so-coincidentally, probably my 'peak' passing period, lasting five years or so. I wasn't really happy being that weight, though. I felt comfortable with my weight last year, but unfortunately it worsened aging effects of sunken cheeks & sagging, which now mostly remain even though a bit heavier again.

You know, and this is a sensitive thing to mention - the trans awareness and media stuff, IMO, has made it MUCH harder to pass too. I get these two funny incidents recently, but by coincidence there happens to be this trans person on a show over here in the UK at the same time (Celebrity Big Brother; and quite a POOR representation of us, at that)... this might not be coincidental... it puts it into people's minds, IMO.

Mostly friends have said they didn't think it. You never know, but friend who recently said it, I completely believe him. Because I was assuming he DID know - several in our circle do, and you assume gossip/word spreads - but it became obvious, as I bemoaned appearance issues, that he was oblivious. He rightly deduced age was a factor but obviously wasn't thinking about anything else. So I decided to disclose as I trust & like him. I think if you don't, it feels like a barrier between you and others anyway. People I've never disclosed to, there's always a bit of hedging and caution in the relationships, for me.

Answering postman/woman looking a complete mess first-thing, was my idea of Ultimate Pass, yeah! And that's always been so, as far as I'm aware. I sometimes think I'm more passable when I'm disheveled and making no effort at all...

The idea of suddenly dressing with various things in mind is weird to me. But one thing really in my mind is trying to wear lighter/medium coloured bottoms so my butt is apparent. I hated the idea of compensatory clothing forever. But this is the Bad News: passability might worsen with age for those who transitioned under, say, 35yo.

[anjaq]

Yes, that is my big fear. I used to think that passability will actually get better as one has more life lived in the "true gender" - because one gets used to it, adopts all kinds of things from other women, HRT should make any developments in the body more female, even aging, even growing fat. My fear is that this is not so. My fear is that now that I am approaching the age that so many people transition at - in the 40ies when midlife crisis strikes and they believe that it is "now or never", but then struggle with all the physical maleness of the body when they do transition - I fear that I will start to have more things in common with them as aging destroys some of my advantages that I had over them during transition. I mean I dont want to say that transition was easy for me. Hell it was an adventure with many villains - but in comparison I always felt that I was complaining about nothing really compared to the older ones. So the fear of now facing their ghosts because of the issues that have nothing to do with the time of transition but have all to do with age itself - really scares me. What will be in 10 years or 15? Will I run to have FFS and liposuctions and a new BA and then still worry? Will I fall for the compensative clothing and makeup that all the mid 40ies transwomen used and that I always found so unneccesary? I dont know, I hope not and I am a bit afraid at that sentence you just put there:
"But this is the Bad News: passability might worsen with age for those who transitioned under, say, 35yo." - do you really think this is true? Is that your own opinion only or did others say this as well?

I do have a few friends that I never told my past. I suspect they do suspect strongly - in part because of me showing up with the friend who de-transitioned (I dont think I can withstand the "acid test" of someone being more or less hinted strongly about trans issues and then still have people not questioning my past). The worst thing is that basically one of my best friends actually asked when I was just knowing her for a few months in college if I was trans as others at college suspected this. And I actually told her no - not knowing that we would become really good friends (at that time I had the policy to deny this if people asked, because I was sick of them changing behaviour if I replied with a yes). This is a very uncomfy situation as you said there is a weird barrier at least on my side now.

And yes I think it is a sensitive thing to mention but I believe it is true that all the trans awareness and publich fighting for trans rights is a double edged sword. On one hand it makes a lot of things easier and less dangerous. Without some of that, I might have been beaten up instead of being treated a bit weird after a "soft clocking", it might have been impossible to get a proper name change, hormone therapy and surgeries paid by the health insurance (I could never have afforded this privately at age 25) and maybe I never would have found out about the whole concept really existing outside my mind, not meet people who did it - and of course I prefer not to be attacked violently if I do or did not pass at some occasion but rather people just tolerate it and ignore this as best as they can. But the other side of course if most people are just unaware of the issue, they do not even think about this unless you really scream it in their face or are totally unpassable. Like in that journey to Iran. If I would have been "clocked" (isnt there a nicer word actually? I hate these words passing, being read, clocked or whatever. Always feels so much like one is doing some act and then someone discovers that it is fake. When really it is not like that) in that country, I might have been hurt, violated, killed or maybe been a pawn in diplomatic exchanges. But it never happened because the people there are mostly not aware of the sheer possibility or the visual clues that would allow them to discover this. So paradoxically I think I passed there much better than here - not only because of the strongly gendered clothing. I would not want to be a transperson in that country of course - I think it is a legal reason to immigrate to Germany if one is in that situation actually... still, that is the other side of it. And I think this is part of the reason why I always tried to go my own way in terms of style (mainly clothing and all that visual stuff). Because that was different from what people associate with transgender women. There are some clues or prejudices that people learned from the media as to what should in their opinion be common to transwomen. Like a love for skirts and very feminine clothes and makeup and totally shaved body hair and other stereotypical stuff - the typical "overshoot" effect that some transwomen fall into when they try to compensate for their past by going way over the other side and actually embrace and dwell into male/female sterotypes to the degree that some suddenly manage to be worse at driving a car after transition as if that really was some kind of biological difference. So I tried to stay away from these stereotypes as best as I could and was hoping that I then do not fall in that category for most people. That they would not think of me as a person with a trans past if I do not look and act like those visible transgender people in the media. But with time of course the image in the media shifted and became more realistic, more lifelike and less theatrical. So now people actually know that a woman could be trans even if she really is looking and acting just like any regular woman. As I am writing this, I now feel like I have to draw a conclusion. If I have to I would say that this means that actually clothing and makeup and such may possibly not really help anymore with those people as they do not even look for that. What would they look for - most likely really physical traits of the body. Which brings me back to the original thoughts actually - voice, face, body contour - that I was in part afraid of as to change these is all but easy. Darn, when I started writing this I was hoping for a different conclusion. Please tell me there can be a different conclusion. Its just my own conclusion now, there have to be other interpretations of this, right? Anyone?

Greetings to all

(And nice to converse with you, Janine!)

[Janine-Janine]

I don't know if the Bad News is an absolute reality, but I would say one thing, looking at a few trans I know or have known in the past, who switched around 20-35 age bracket approx - seeing recent photos and such, some of them do look less passable IMO than a decade or so back. Being late 30s or early 40s now. One of them seems to have a much more 'manly' build somehow - even appears to be suffering from male pattern baldness a bit (very thin hair & somewhat receded at temples), which I honestly didn't think was the case when I met her (in person) quite a few years ago - I thought she was very passable aside from being quite tall. But she looked really quite male in a string of recent photos. Obviously I wouldn't mention any names. I don't want to upset anyone.

These are not problems I've encountered, really. Quite different. But common linkage is similar age bracket, etc. It's a scary subject but I guess it's something that could be looked at, if only to figure out if there are reasons for it, and solutions. In above example, for instance, I wonder if the HRT dosage (not to get into that too much again) is sufficient as it looked like a striking regression to me. Seen a few others similar, although not in the hairloss department - that seems to be very rare.

I've only heard one other person say this, and basically she just said (re a photo she had took BEFORE she officially transitioned), "I looked better back then." This was about eight years later.

Had to LOL at trans suddenly getting bad at driving. I've seen this kind of thing a lot of times. Psychological or deliberate, whatever. In one case I def knew it was an act (48yo transitioner). Here's the truth: I'm BETTER at finding directions than I was before! I happen to think that's just from maturity than hormone levels though. I don't drive, but I mean finding places I don't know at all... I usually can and without help. Gender stereotypes are a powerful thing, though. For instance, I was looking for a place a couple of months ago - I called a (male) friend up and said, "Help me!" So he did. He walked me to the exact door. Later on, I had to admit, I would've found it okay anyway, but asking for help was more sociable. So I fall into it but I'll freely admit it's BS too.

[Horizon]

I just wanted to pop in to say this; you can never always pass.  Someone, somewhere is going to be transphobic/homophobic enough to clock you, even without indication.  I've seen pretty, young cisgirls on the internet get "clocked" by men too terrified by their homophobia - afraid that they might accidentally find a "man" attractive.

Passing to the 99.9% is realistic and reasonable.  Passing to the 0.1% isn't worth stressing over.

[anjaq]

Horizon, That is probably true - 100% is impossible. But 99% should be quite possible and even 99.9% should be. Considering how many encounters one has in a week, if there is 1% misgendering you, that is probably at least once a week and would be unbearable. I am now talking about misgendering, meaning that a person really thinks of you, treats you and speaks to you in the wrong gender. The number of people that detect your trans past is a lot higher than that, but in most of these cases they will not show that openly. So these are two different things. In terms of being not perceived as someone with possibly a transgender past, I think 99% is great. In terms of actually being misgendered, 99% would be horrible.

The experiences that recently put me on to this issue were with people that certainly were not showing much signs of homophobia and they did not speak badly to me, they simply misgendered me and when I asked one of them he even apologized several times. Basically these are "accidents" and I think those should be avoided. I cannot claim that it would be possible to get over people actively seeking for trans clues all the time in an obsessive way, but franky I dont care about these people and probably also not their associates. But I dont want to be misgendered by accident - especially as the fallout of such situations often is that the other people around that event suddenly are turning into "seekers" and then some of them will find clues enough to switch their mind to perceiving me at least as trans, if not as the wrong gender.

And as I said, the curve was a bit of a sinus - in the beginning of transition, lets say the first 3 years I was misgendered with a relatively high frequency, many people saw me as trans. then things went to the sunny side with long term HRT and SRS and facial laser and these occurences subsided until 5 years or so after transition, I basically was not misgendered anymore with some percentage of people secretly knowing or suspecting that I am trans. This went on for almost 8-10 years after that until recently I get more of these occurences again in the past 2 years, that is 15 years after transition began. So during that plateau of 8 years, I think I was almost never misgendered except on the phone. And this is what I think is where my probelm lies - these clues - misgendering on the phone and in a dark situation - to me these are hints that voice is a major point that I need to work on first. But what I wanted to say - at least in these 8 years I never was misgendered when being face to face. That is a 100%. And i want that back plus I really dont want the percentage of people quietly realizing that I have a trans past and quietly thinking of me as trans and quietly say nothing to me about it to not affect me negatively to be reduced. Just knowing there are many like that makes me nervous.
I apologize again if this seems a bit like vanity or something, but believe me, many transpeople will eventually get there with what means ever needed - for some that is FFS and voice surgery - but once you are there and are never really misgendered in years, anyone would be hit hard if that goes away. The same if you are misgendered maybe once a month and at some time that drops to 2 or 4 times a month. You would feel like something that you really like and got used to and that you desire with all your heart of hearts is decaying and that is not a good feeling.

Janine - Ok, that IS scary now, given that you know several people who had that experience. It may not be representative but still is scary. a too low dosage of estrogens would be a really crappy cause for that as those are really cheap. Makes me think right now of asking my doc to up that a bit. I am "within the normal female range" (which however is really quite wide). He does not want to overdo it - but if that can have a negative effect...back to the originally higher dosage of the first years I would say, especially if I manage to loose weight so that the increased breast cancer risk by higher dosages is less of an issue.

So i really would love to hear some more on that topic from others, I hope this is not going to be a 1:1 conversation mostly.

[Janine-Janine]

For me I have to rule out voice completely as per my IS status I was vocally androgynous, which has (seemingly as I made no changes intentionally) lifted a tiny fraction over the years - I could get 'sir' on phone VERY occasionally but not even once for ten years or more. I think the last time it happened was 2003 and I was ill at the time anyway. Strangely not reassuring if something else is afoot.

As I said elsewhere, my HRT dosage was increased - by the degree you mentioned - some years ago. Due to discovering that my E level was indeed quite mediocre and presumably had been for a few years. So this might apply to more people than realise it. Over here, for me at any rate, there is no long-term monitoring. No support at all. I would have to take the initiative of requesting such things, which I did on that occasion.

So overall, I believe personally I am having some mildly negative effects from aging, anyway. And having serious thoughts about what I wear. Kinda depressing. Male friend last week said to me: "You need to ditch the jeans. They're for younger people." I don't agree with that at all. (BUT, he'd probably lure me into dresses if I were more receptive.) But I know my fashion rules well enough. Darker tops, lighter bottoms, if you want a more accentuated shape, black being slimming and so on.

I def still want some cosmetic work anyway. My nose is something that's always bothered me. I took some photos last week and I thought I looked fine on them, mostly (front view) (completely 'cis', some might say, but I'm not keen on the term), but I avoid profile shots like the plague. I think profile shots of me look vile.

I said somewhere else, I didn't think transition ever fully ended. This is how it feels, really, but with a plateau of a few years where, even if it wasn't perfect it was quite all right.

This is an uncomfortable subject, I think.

[anjaq]

It really is an uncomfortable subject indeed. I wonder if the reason not many other write here seriously is hte same that I had when I was in the self help group at the start of transition. My concerns usually were dismissed as being less of an issue. And in comparison of course they were. I mean there were people there looking (sorry) like male heroic figures in a dress that wanted advice how to tell their wices and kids and keep the job. So much work to be done by them until they get where they want to be. It was really troubling. And then I come along with some issues about how last week I was misgendered several times on one day (compared to basically every time with some of them). That was part of why I left there - I had different issues than they. But here I dont think this is so, many long term post ops here, lots of talk about things not related to keeping jobs and telling family (at least if so then in the subforums).

I hate profile shots as well. I am not sure if that is really because they actually look more male-ish, if that is just my impression of if it is just weird because it is a view of myself that I never see unless I take a picture.

In terms of clothing - there is no way I will be forced into wearing some things I dont want at that time, like a dress for work - But I would settle for some changes in color and such, I already moved away from plain jeans in blue or black and black T-Shirts to more colorful clothing which really helps a bit I think - maybe not because they are more fem but because they just look happier and then people are not trying to look so hard at that sinister looking person . Sadly it does not help my BMI issue. But as of dressing according to age - I actually dont know many people my age that do wear dresses or skirts regularly. On the contrary, more of the late 20ies, early 30ies seem to do that in this generation (when I was that age it was not like that so much). Middle aged women rather seem to not do that but go for a more practical look, especially working women. I dont think it is really so much of an age thing but rather a generation thing - People just keep wearing what they did when they were 30 minus the more sexy stuff... But thats just a theory of mine

Thanks for pointing out the HRT thing. I will take a look at the blood values next time I get checked up for HRT and see if they are more to the low end and maybe correct that. May help or hinder the stuff about weight loss.

Good that your voice is all right - one thing less to worry about, but then you have that "gaunt" issue which is more of a facial thing I understand. The voice thing was more my own self-analysis now. Talking about the instances that were weird really helps to find such things. I did not get what your "IS status" was though.

[Janine-Janine]

IS = intersex. Which in this instance translates as a puberty that was - jumbled. Trans issues aside it was just physically difficult. Not a guarantee of beauty as I see some people on here who are a fair bit prettier than I am. Whether more passable I don't know without a real-life impression which is always different. But I look somewhat Polish/Jewish or something. (Whether or not that is in my bloodline, I've no idea.) Actually what I mostly found is that the hormone treatment simply did much less to me than other trans usually seemed to report rather than giving totally awesome results. I was disappointed in lots of ways. You know, you go through a lot of anguish and you want this radical change, but you're thinking, ho-hum, just the same old crappy me. Sometimes I still think that, other times I think I'm almost happy apart from a couple-three points of annoyance.

That reminds me of another thing. Have a female friend who once told me off for excessive paranoia. I mean passing has always been an issue even if it isn't. She is a good four inches shorter than me and completely used to being called sir because she has very short hair (and no, she isn't gay). And she said, "Even my voice is deeper than yours!" (Strangely enough: true. Just slightly.) But I know we will always take it more personally because of the history. It isn't just us but it means more to us. This woman chooses to not be bothered about such things because she has nothing to prove. I'm envious of that.

Oh, god, yeah, I need to look less dark just generally too. I subscribe to 'black is the new black' 1000%. But I don't know if it's really a useful tendency. I think you're right that 'feminine' clothes have made a bit of a comeback in younger people, for better or worse (media brainwashing IMO) - but middle-aged types get a mind of their own and don't care so much. That male friend of mine just has a personal bias to skirts and dresses on women. He's one of those who is all for women's rights but still thinks they should be traditional. His family is deeply right-wing and he's never fully recovered. But I never felt my identity should rest on that kind of thing, or my sexuality for that matter. It's a conflicted feeling because I want to be attractive - and I don't want to be single - but I also don't want to be enslaved by that stuff. First time I really thought about age biting me was a couple of years ago. I said to a friend, I actually think I look a bit better with some makeup these days (I used to think the exact opposite). Well, she said, that applies to EVERYONE over 35. So now, questions of artifice again. How do I define feminine. I tried to define that on very personal terms. But social constructs intrude - the message seemingly is that, increasingly any sort of ambiguity per the social code is apt to create some problems.

I suppose I should be grateful. There is a woman on this estate with no curves whatsoever and a face like a bulldog. Apart from the long hair I'm not sure how SHE passes (assuming she does). She dresses much like me too. And another quite short woman in her 50s with a masculine face and pretty bad hairloss. Only her height saves her. Still, Bulldog Woman has a husband, so even if I don't think anyone would find her more attractive than me, she has something I don't have.

Won't rest until nose and neck are fixed, I guess. Just hoping I can create an opportunity this side of being 60. :-/ Meanwhile: figuring how fat I might get to offset this gaunt thing. My lower facial bone structure is quite delicate so it doesn't support a 'strong' impression to begin with. Heavy and saggy, just lately, yes, unfortunately. Smiling fixes it, kind of, but walking round with a full smile looks a bit dumb. Thin face is fine on younger people but it gets less so with age. I just want my cheeks filled out a bit more. I'm probably gonna end up riddled with Sculptra... someone asked me a while ago, if everything was exactly as you preferred - would you (I) still find reasons to be unhappy? And you know what, I'm not entirely sure.

[anjaq]

Hi. Just wanted to say to Janine that I really enjoy this conversation with you. Its been a while since I talked to someone who had so many similar experiences That is not to say that others cannot join on the topic and contribute...

So that is interesting, didnt know that you were IS actually. I guess there are some differences then. I was checked for genetic IS, but the chromosomes say that I am not IS, though it was funny - people at the support group kept telling me that I should be as I actually dont have some of those features that many worry about like hairs on the arms or chest, narrow hips, body height, adams apple and such - but I think this should be attributed more to luck and me being age 23 at that time than any IS stuff.

[...] you want this radical change, but you're thinking, ho-hum, just the same old crappy me. Sometimes I still think that, other times I think I'm almost happy apart from a couple-three points of annoyance.

That reminds me of another thing. Have a female friend who once told me off for excessive paranoia. I mean passing has always been an issue even if it isn't. She is a good four inches shorter than me and completely used to being called sir because she has very short hair (and no, she isn't gay). And she said, "Even my voice is deeper than yours!" (Strangely enough: true. Just slightly.) But I know we will always take it more personally because of the history. It isn't just us but it means more to us. This woman chooses to not be bothered about such things because she has nothing to prove. I'm envious of that.

Yes indeed that is a facor and I can relate. I think for people with a trans past, it is always much more troubling is something like misgendering happens and we react with more anxiety and stupidness to it while others would possibly just tell the other person to stick it . And of course yes we always look much more critical at ourselves in term of traces of supposed maleness - and I personally think that in many cases it is not the factual maleness of a feature that bugs us, but rather that it looks as before when we were living a life that was in the male role. We seek a transformation away from that old outer self that we began to feel uncomfortable with overall. And those parts that do not change remind us of that "old me" which of course is the same as the "new me" but had a lot of troubles with physical appearance and social role and so we are reminded of that. I think part of the FFS or laser treatments are attributed to that - the desire to transform the body so that it does not remind of the way the body was before even if the part changed was not really male-looking at all.

I really like black - I was a goth at some time even (and in some ways still are at heart ) but its just one of many "colors". Re feminine clothes - I find it funny that young women now wear dresses and blouses that my grandma was wearing in terms of patterns and cut. When I was younger, no one would have done so, it was "grandmother clothes" - but now that this generation of granmothers is almost gone, this reputation is going away. I wonder if in some years young girls will find jeans and black stuff a sign of being really old

It's a conflicted feeling because I want to be attractive - and I don't want to be single - but I also don't want to be enslaved by that stuff. First time I really thought about age biting me was a couple of years ago. I said to a friend, I actually think I look a bit better with some makeup these days (I used to think the exact opposite). Well, she said, that applies to EVERYONE over 35.

Yeah great, so I have to use makeup and clothing now to make up for my age and stay attractive? Probably that is so. Well, thats not a trans problem though. I guess everyone has that and everyone like you and me being still single at about age 40 will get some panic as to become an old unmarried lady.

I ROFLd almost when I read "bulldog woman" - that is mean... But yes that is such a weird things at times. One sometimes has the feeling that even the most ugly woman one knows has an advantage compared to a decent looking transwoman like us just because they are "cis". I dont know what- maybe its jsut that they do not worry.

someone asked me a while ago, if everything was exactly as you preferred - would you (I) still find reasons to be unhappy? And you know what, I'm not entirely sure.

Yes - I relate. I would not be either. I used to think that sure, if all the things that bug me now - too strong jawline, too big nose, too low voice, too broad shoulders (though that cannot be fixed of course) - would somehow be corrected, I would not have any worries and be free. I begin to think that this is not so. It may be a lot better, but truely free - I think that can hardly be done by physical corrections as even after all that probably at some point there will be a "soft read" or a misgendering in some odd situation - something that even "cis" females encounter, but then it is even worse than before as one does not expect it at all anymore and I can imagine that then - after all efforts have been made - the depression would be severe - while the other woman would just be angry at that stupid guy that called her "Sir" and make censorable comments about his eyesight or brain functionality. So I am not sure how to solve this, which plays into why I posted this thread. I am unsure - will I need FFS or other procedures to feel safer and more secure and free? Or is that nonsense as it is all in my head? Will it still be in my head after such efforts? I dont know...
Greetings

[Kate G]

I think I had my FFS in 2009.  Basically I had felt like I passed pretty good but I had some very hard life experiences that prematurely aged me.  I had definitely lost whatever advantages HRT had given me.  FFS gave me a new lease on life and allowed me to be able to pass better than I had previously.  My mother has told me several times that some people are always going to know.  Personally I disagree, I think some people are going to suspect but if you really focus on your voice, I think your voice can cast heavy doubt on the suspectors.  Also I only confess my truth and my truth is that somehow I have always been female so when asked I never am guilted into testifying against myself.

I have noticed that medical people tend to be the worst.  I had a hair graft doctor spend half my consultation telling me he didn't consider me female, I didn't put down on the paperwork that I had transitioned since it was none of his business.  It isn't like you have to insert the hair grafts differently on someone who transitioned.  Anyway... it was his way of trying to get me to give him a confession but honestly it was sexual harassment on his part.  At a laser clinic a woman spent the whole session trying to get a confession out of me, she spent the whole time insinuating that I was really a gay man, etc., (more sexual harassment).  Some day one of us is going to get smart and take one of these medical people to court for sexual harassment because honestly that is what it is.

Oh there was another doctor who I was considering body sculpting with and he and his nurse were so EXCITED because they read me and they couldn't wait to get me to confess that I wasn't a real woman.  I emailed him and let him know what I thought of his bedside manner and essentially he told me that his patients have to be "honest" with him and that is all he wants.  But really... He just wanted his bozo button.  He knew that the information was irrelevant but he wanted a reward for reading me as trans.  I think most doctors are used to trans women who want to talk about their transition but after transition has been over and done with for nine years or so and the woman who transitioned has gotten used to living as a regular female the harassment begins to feel like what it is.

[Kate G]

I just wanted to pop in to say this; you can never always pass.  Someone, somewhere is going to be transphobic/homophobic enough to clock you, even without indication.  I've seen pretty, young cisgirls on the internet get "clocked" by men too terrified by their homophobia - afraid that they might accidentally find a "man" attractive.

Passing to the 99.9% is realistic and reasonable.  Passing to the 0.1% isn't worth stressing over.

The way I look at it is this, "Some women who were born with a vagina get read as trans."  So I shouldn't feel like I owe someone a confession if they suspect I transitioned.  It is nobody's business unless I choose to share it with them.  This is true for sexual partners also.  Now I do believe that one should be respectful and if a lot of other people know you transitioned then hiding it from someone who is supposed to be your best friend/partner can be in my opinion disrespectful.  Honestly my plan if I ever feel like confessing to a sexual partner that I transitioned (after being pressured to do so) is to say, "Oh I thought you already knew and you were simply being respectful because you loved me."  Because honestly those of us who pay our dues and make it through this thing called transition, we deserve the opportunity to allow people to get to know us as who we are.  For some of us that means not bringing up the whole trans thing right away or maybe not ever.

[anjaq]

Thanky for your post, Kate. I understand what you are saying about FFS - getting "a new lease on life"- sounds a bit like something that is postponing a problem though, but of course FFS will not go away, so it is a permanent result. I am streghtened by your words now in my belief that I have to do more work on the voice. I more and more suspect that this is my biggest issue. I know these situations as well - people suspecting that something is not quite right - sometimes they dont even know what it is, sometimes they strongly suspect its TS and they they try to fish for hints or confessions. With medical people what always gets me is the list of presently taken medications - a standard question. One of the items then is "Estradiol" and inevitably the question comes "what do you get that for" - or alternatively there is a "knowing nod" without more comments. Now what do you say to such a question - I can justify for myself to say "no" if someone asks me if I was born a man or if I "was a man" or something stupid like that, as no, I never was in my identity. But if someone asks about why I take estradiol - I dont want to lie to a doctor who may need that information and invent something like being menopausal (at 30-something?) or have "hormonal issues" (what is your diagnosis?) or having had my ovaries taken out (at what time and where? what was the reason for that?). I have the same trouble if someone asks me kindly if I had a male body once, or bluntly if I have a transsexual past - saying no to this would simply be a lie as both are rather true and I cannot pretend that they are not - I can draw a line and simply deny this to people I do not care much about - strangers - but not people I am closer to. A direct question without dancing around it requires of me to either deny it which is of course often a lie (and I may choose that option in some cases) - or to confess. If the denial is used, quite often that does not even work as the people remain suspicious anyways...
But I agree on your second post that "those of us who pay our dues and make it through this thing called transition, we deserve the opportunity to allow people to get to know us as who we are." - we definitely do and this is why I will not bring it up at all if people are just curious or try to coerce me into confessing. As I said I have a bigger problem in outright denying that past if someone directly asks about it as I am not good in twisting reality

[Kate G]

When it comes to answering questions about whether or not you transitioned, have always been female etc.,  I think you have to take into consideration what your truth is and how loyal you are to that truth.  My truth is that somehow I have always been female so that is my foundation, that I have always been female, because in some way I always have.  And I was not my penis, my penis was not me.  My penis never made me male because people are not sexual organs.  I think it can be very useful to solidify this in your mind before you try to answer difficult questions.

But no one wants to be considered a liar.  So why take the burden upon yourself?  Why put yourself in a position to be judged?  The fact is that the person asking you the question is approaching you with a burden.  Essentially the person asking the question is saying this, "I have a burden and I want to get rid of my burden, can I put it on you instead?  Think about it.  The person asking the question feels unease or burdened and he or she wants you to make them feel better.  The problem is that for many of us, we would have to put ourselves at unease or burden ourselves unnecessarily in order for the question asker to feel better about him or her self.  It's not my job to feel bad so someone else can feel better.

If you believe that trans women are women then it shouldn't matter if a trans woman is trans or not because it doesn't change the fact that a trans woman is a woman, except to the person asking the question.  That is the only reason anyone would ever ask if you were trans or not, because they don't consider trans women to be women, they consider trans women to be different from women or they wouldn't be asking you the question.  Such a person is burdened by their own beliefs.  It isn't your job to try to carry their burden for them.

So here are some examples...

Someone asks you, "Are you trans?"  You say, "What kind of question is that?"

Feel free to put the burden back on them...

Someone asks, "Did you transition?"  You say, "Do you have a problem with trans people?"

Or you can do this...

"Your voice sounds kind of masculine and I noticed some other things about you, you used to be a man didn't you?"

You look at them like this, O_O and if you like you can say something like, "Please never talk to me ever again."

Ask yourself, who deserves an answer?  If someone is asking you a question that is designed (consciously or not) to tear you down, traumatize you and force you to have to re-live the misery that you experienced before transition as if everything you accomplished was for nothing... then what does that person deserve in return whether they are malicious, ignorant or just curious?  They deserve nothing.  They certainly don't deserve to go away with a piece of your soul.

As for doctors asking about estrogen.  I was told by a surgeon that it wasn't necessary for me to stop taking estrogen before surgery.  The reason was that plenty of women are operated on all the time who have more estrogen in their bodies than I had.  I choose to believe this.  I am not encouraging anyone to risk their health or believe what I am saying but the conclusion I have made for myself is since I am on a moderate and safe level of estrogen I don't need to tell any doctor that I am taking estrogen and I don't because it is something that would be in my body anyway had I been born with all the right parts.  Safe level of estrogen, not a big deal to me.

[Kate G]

Also I noticed after transition that women tend to be non-confrontational.  For instance they tend not to say things like, "You look bad in that outfit."  Instead they will say, "Why don't you wear that outfit you wore last weekend?"  Or, "You look really nice in that white outfit with the navy belt."  In other words, "Change your clothes, you look awful in that."  I had a woman tell me, "So and so thinks you might have transitioned but she should talk, she looks like a trans person herself."  Then later on she got upset at me because what she was actually doing was asking me if I had transitioned and she wanted an answer, she just asked in a very non-confrontational way. Not sure why I am mentioning it except to say that many women communicate in ways that we may have never noticed until we actually began to socialize with men and women who assumed we had always been female.  Point being some of us can learn from them.  The art of not answering a question in a polite way can be a very feminine communication technique. 

It is my belief that those of us who were socialized as males were taught to answer a question with an answer whereas (at least in the past) women are taught to avoid questions.  Typically women might have to avoid answering a question in order to feel safe.  For example if some strange man asks a woman if she is single, either to feel safe or to avoid a hassle she may either lie or avoid the question.  Or if a guy asks a girl if she is home alone, etc.  In my opinion women who transition and who feel the need to should value feeling safe over answering questions.  I know that in recent decades it has become fashionable to insist that men and women are exactly the same so feel free to disagree with me should you choose to.

Oh... and don't forget you can always answer a question with non-verbal communication.




It's okay to draw healthy boundaries, boundaries that protect you from emotional pain or suffering.  I only allow things to come out of my mouth that respect me and allow me to feel safe.  Typically the individual who asks the question, "Did you transition?" (etc.), they aren't really asking a question so much as they are making a statement and they are using you to feel better about themselves.  And I am not writing this for people who feel good about being trans and enjoy talking about it, there is nothing wrong with that but this is for the folks who are tired of talking about themselves as trans.

[anjaq]

Thank you Kate, this way to looking at it is rather new for me and I have to ponder it. Yes of course I try to be evasive if the questions are not to the point (like "you have a deep voice" - "yes, I have"). The more direct ones are problematic because of course I feel that now that they already know it (and no one asks such a question without already being quite sure) I can as well talk of it. Sometimes I do not even get a question at all but someone comes up and tells me that "I do accept you fully as a woman, I thought you should know that". It sounds so nice and tolerant but of course the effect is a bang in the head together with the soft stroke of the hand. No matter what I say then - she knows.
Anyways, I will read this again tomorrow and see if I can apply at least some parts of it for me. Learning to givy good but meaningless or evasive answers is probably a good idea and drawing a line as to who may know it is also a good one - even if that means to lie, which I dont really like to do - no matter if in our society women use such protective lies more often. But yes, to protect myself, I need to do such things, I suspect. I believe I know what happens if I dont - that is me building up internal shields against such "attacks" which means I disconnect from my inner self and start to not look people into the eyes because I want to evade such situations - thats really bad then. Better the occasional lie then...