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Pros & Cons of Early SRS

Started by Karla, September 11, 2013, 05:08:15 PM

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anjaq

Yeah that would be great. But AFAIK this cannot be analyzed with MRT or something like that yet, right? But I can imagine that it will be possible in some time. There was quite a spread in the study though with some males being in the female range and some females in the male range. The average was clearly different and significantly so, but individuals seem to differ. So it can probably only be a good supporting hint... I think I am not winterested in the medical side of this. Didnt know that there were so many new studies out. Maybe I can read some of them...

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anjaq

Quote from: TaoRaven on September 14, 2013, 09:58:22 PM
Oh...one more thing...found this tid bit, and thought it relevant:
[...] In a comparison of 34 postmortem human brains, scientists found that the part of the brain comprising a small group of nerve cells thought to pertain to gender and sexuality were similar in trans women and non-trans women.
Sorry to dig on this again, its a bit off topic, but do you think that such physiological differences in the brain give merit to the claims of some people that these physiological differences also may reflect in the body? What I am getting at is that the science seems to say that these structures in the brain develop during pregnancy because of hormones. Depending at what time during pregnancy some hormones are having an influence on the fetus, the body will change in a gender specific way (causing IS if there is a mismatch between hormones and genetics) and at another time it is the brain (causing TS if there is said mismatch). Would it then not be fair to assume that there is at least the possibility that some body features could provide a hint for a prolonged exposure to these hormones which also cause the brain to change? I am not saying that this is so, but I read that some people get really angry when others suggest something like that, calling them "elitist" and such because they suggest that maybe a TS person that also has some body properties that are less male could be more certain of being TS. But maybe they have a point then if the reason for changes in the brain and body are both happening for basically the same reason.
Just a thought, maybe I should have put this in another thread.

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Northern Jane

anjaq, I have done a LOT of reading on human sexual differentiation and medical literature is quite definitive about the "road map" for the physical body being set down, "cast in stone" if you will, by the 12th week of gestation and that the changes after that time are in growth. The development of the human brain, however, does not begin in earnest until AFTER the 12th week of pregnancy and continues to occur primarily in the middle trimester. Unless the factors that cause the brain to develop contrary to the chromosomal pattern (XX or XY) were also present throughout the first trimester as well, the body would not be effected.

On the subject of "brain sex" there was some testing done within the last few years (using MRI if I remember correctly) studying the brain activity patterns in response to certain stimuli and it was found that male and female responses to the same stimuli showed pronounced differences. The tests were preformed on ("normal") mature adults and no conclusions were drawn aside from noting the differences.

Were the sames tests to be repeated with transgendered/transsexual people (pre and post hormones) with "normal" people as a control group it may be possible to show a functional difference between the transgendered brain and the normal person's brain activity. THAT would prove a physiological connection to TG/TS. To the best of my knowledge, that has not been done yet. The mere fact that a functional difference is provable has already become VERY unpopular with 'the politically correct' crowd since so many people equate "different" to one being "better than" or superior to the other.

[Personally I believe that hormones play a large role in shaping thought patterns, maybe with life's experience also being a factor. When I look at how much my own thinking has evolved between starting hormones at 17 and at some point a few years post-everything, there is very little similarity. I fit squarely within the female range and totally outside of the male range and it has been that way a LONG time. Was it the hormones that changed me so much or was it living a woman's life? I don't know but I do know that "the wiring" was there and it just needed to be activated.]
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lovelessheart

everyone is not the same. everyone of us may require a different approuch. but since its plenty of us..they have to treat us with all the same requirements. i think if i had of gotten srs right off the back i would have been just as fine. but being on hrt nearly three years has givin me time to learn and grow. everyone is different. 
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anjaq

Jane -
Well yes, the changes post-HRT and post-transition are big and certainly will have an effect, which is why those studies try to look at pre-everything people or try to eliminate adult hormonal influences. I am a scientist, so I am not so much interested in dropping studying a subject for political correctness reasons. If there is a physiological marker, then it does exist. If people take it then in an elitist way, that is an issue that has to be dealt with then, not the fact itself.
So that 12 week mark is what I was wondering about. Consider that for some reason or another there is a time - some days or weeks - in which the XY fetus gets hormones that cause feminization (just as an example now). That time starts at some point and ends at another later point. Now if it starts some days before the 12 week mark and ends sometime later, it would affect body a little bit, brain a lot. This would be the most likely case then actually - more likely than the hormone surge coming only before the 12th week or only after the 12th week and of course the control group are the ones not having any such surge at all. In that case, I would almost guess that quite a few people who got that hormone surge had it in a way that was spanning over some part of the body development as well as the brain development. I know this is a bit dangerous to think about politically as there may be that idiotic idea coming from it that some people are "more legit" than others, but that is nonsense as obviously there will be cases where the surge comes only after the 12th week and thus only brain is affected and that is not less "legit" than anything else. But such a overlapping surge would be quite common then and explain possibly why for some TS people the body is not quite male as well.

AFAIK there is no MRT technique yet available that shows structures that differ between male and female on birth. thinking patterns are just too susceptible to change with life experiences. AFAIK they had to do the analyses post-mortem to get into these differences they are mentioning. Its a bit of a tough subject as obviously it is hard to divide brain structures or patterns that developed before birth from after birth, pre-puberty to adolescence. Learned behaviour adds to that. And certainly does being post-op for many years. Even worse if the data can only be gotten post-mortem.

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Karla

Quote from: Northern Jane on September 18, 2013, 07:05:47 AM
I don't know but I do know that "the wiring" was there and it just needed to be activated.

That's been my experience as well. 

I have gone full time despite not having all my ducks in a row... forced because I have to prove myself to non-transsexual, non-queer authority figures, to obtain treatment.  Interesting debate... I'm going along with the charade, but damn them, I'm having such fun along the way !   

In retrospect, we all reach a point where we have to 'go live' even if things aren't perfect.  Holding back and waiting for perfection may never happen.  So what if I'm not 100% passable?  As long as I learn from each situation, I'm improving.

Sorry if I seemed to disparage Harry Benjamin earlier.  Of course his work was revolutionary.  I criticise the little people who stand on his shoulders, little people who have adopted the 1950's attitudes toward women that Harry's generation held.   And no, I have no forgiveness for therapists who take our cash and then insist that we have to be 'straight women' to qualify for HRT & SRS.  We're here, get used to it.

The debate over whether your body belongs to you alone... won't be resolved here. 
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