Brains of trans individuals

[CourtneyAngelina]

I was browsing through YouTube and found this clip from a Stanford Biology class lecture regarding the brains of transgender individuals. Found it interesting. Although the lecture took place in 2010 and not necessarily news, I figured I'd share it anyways. He does get some of the lingo a little mixed up but it's very minimal and doesn't really affect main point.




So what do you think? I'm sure a lot of you have heard of studies such as this before but I thought I'd share it anyways for those of us who weren't aware of them. I hope this is helpful to someone, maybe you can show this video to people who are not supportive of your transition or for those who have questions about it. Feel free to discuss below

[Rachel]

Thank you.

I have been thinking of this during the morning. I guess I am a short whatever in my brain. I know we are no longer are considered to have a mental "disorder" as of 2013. So I guess I am normal? So science is catching up with my condition. I am a female brained person. I know why we say our birthday is when we start HRT. The correct hormones are absolutely wonderful. 

[suzifrommd]

I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.

Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.

Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.

The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.

[TaoRaven]

Good stuff, right here. I know of a few Doctors and Scientists who are working on the theory that being trans is actually a biological birth defect...that we are literally born with the wrong parts. There is even some interesting notions that it might be hereditary.

Would make a world of difference to some of us to be medically treated as any other birth defect correction, instead of the mess that we endure right now.

[anjaq]

I heard about the first part, there was a study out over 10 years ago on that and apparently they did a duplicate of this to confirm it. Its fascinating. I never heard the second one though with the "phantom limb" thing. Thats new to me.
The upside of this is that with such evidence, we might actually get from treatment and surgery being paid on the grounds of an otherwise uncurable "sickness of the psyche" (which is what is the current status in some countries like Germany) to it being paid for being essentially a body birth defect - so we could go away from that stigma of being "mentally ill" and still get medical treatment by healthcare. Yay!

[suzifrommd]

I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.

[Keira J]

Thanks for this, really very interesting

[CourtneyAngelina]

Thank you.

I have been thinking of this during the morning. I guess I am a short whatever in my brain. I know we are no longer are considered to have a mental "disorder" as of 2013. So I guess I am normal? So science is catching up with my condition. I am a female brained person. I know why we say our birthday is when we start HRT. The correct hormones are absolutely wonderful.

Science is most definitely catching up! Very exciting!

I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.

Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.

Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.

The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.

Yeah I completely understand. It was clear that he wasn't completely familiar with the trans lingo and probably doesn't have a close trans friend, but it's good to see that someone can use science to disprove all the haters out there 

Good stuff, right here. I know of a few Doctors and Scientists who are working on the theory that being trans is actually a biological birth defect...that we are literally born with the wrong parts. There is even some interesting notions that it might be hereditary.

Would make a world of difference to some of us to be medically treated as any other birth defect correction, instead of the mess that we endure right now.

That would definitely help lift a financial burden off many trans folk. If it could be classified as a birth defect then it is very possible that insurance would be willing to cover all treatment. That movement is already started though, I believe it is Kaiser Permanente in Colorado that now covers much of the expenses involved in transitioning. Good times ahead

I heard about the first part, there was a study out over 10 years ago on that and apparently they did a duplicate of this to confirm it. Its fascinating. I never heard the second one though with the "phantom limb" thing. Thats new to me.
The upside of this is that with such evidence, we might actually get from treatment and surgery being paid on the grounds of an otherwise uncurable "sickness of the psyche" (which is what is the current status in some countries like Germany) to it being paid for being essentially a body birth defect - so we could go away from that stigma of being "mentally ill" and still get medical treatment by healthcare. Yay!

I had never heard about the second part either. It's all very interesting the more and more science discovers about trans related issues. Definitely a push away from the "mentally ill" stigma that so many people insist we are.

I was thinking more about the phantom limb thing. It may be due to the fact that the penile tissue is largely preserved during SRS, so I'm not sure it's as convincing as the other results.

That is most definitely a possibility, I'm sure more research will be done in the future to find out. Time will tell

Thanks for this, really very interesting

No problem, I'm glad it helped

[Jessica Merriman]

Great video! Education IS power. Glad people like us are being studied seriously now and to some point vindicated for our feelings. Maybe health insurance will start helping us out some day. One can only hope.

[Lo]

Studies and information like this are always interesting... but the theories always break when you consider nonbinaries. Fortunately for science, they can afford to ignore us for a while.

The phantom limb thing is neat, though. I've always felt like I've had a phantom body more so than phantom genitals and secondary sex characteristics.

[anjaq]

Since in most of these studies they look only at the binary people, they find binary results in a way, but even for that brain region he was talking about, there is a variability. IIRC it is 2.5 times larger in men (including FtMs) than in women (including MtFs). But some of the datapoints are in between, like at 2x the size. I can well imagine that if you look at enough bigendered people you certainly might find they are in the middle of that. But I guess they would have some trouble to get enough dead bigendered people onto their dissection tables... - they are probably harder to find than any of the others mentioned.

[carrie359]

Very good thanks for posting.. as for me.. I know for sure I would not have the phantom penis thing.. would feel more normal without it..

[Lo]

Since in most of these studies they look only at the binary people, they find binary results in a way, but even for that brain region he was talking about, there is a variability. IIRC it is 2.5 times larger in men (including FtMs) than in women (including MtFs). But some of the datapoints are in between, like at 2x the size. I can well imagine that if you look at enough bigendered people you certainly might find they are in the middle of that. But I guess they would have some trouble to get enough dead bigendered people onto their dissection tables... - they are probably harder to find than any of the others mentioned.

There's a heck of a lot more to being nonbinary than just bigender or somewhere between M and F.

I dunno. I think studies and information like this help a certain category of trans* person, and not others. It definitely doesn't help me-- in fact, I bristle when "born this way" information like this is put out as a blanket explanation for all transgender people. It has the unfortunate side-effect of discrediting those whose gender changes throughout their lives, those whose gender exists entirely outside of the M/F spectrum (like myself), those who don't relate to the "born in the wrong body" narrative, and so on. There's a special place in the heart of binary trans* people, I've found, for hating on folks who identify as "otherkin" (you know, the people who think they're things like dragons and wolves born in human bodies), and the rhetoric used to tear that community down sounds almost identical to the way that bigoted binary trans* people talk about nonbinaries. The similarity is that it's all too easy to write us off as inconsequential or delusional because we feel we are something that doesn't "exist" in the same way that "man" and "woman" does (ie biologically). It's sad and frustrating.

[Lexi Belle]

I'd heard of the brain study before (but not the extent to which the size of that part of the brain is a reliable predictor of male/female) but not the phantom penis.

Makes me feel better about my upcoming surgery.

Only thing I don't like was he kept mentioning "insisting they are female", which is the media narrative of transgender women. In fact I (and a number of other trans women I've communicated with) have never felt or insisted I'm female. I still don't "feel" female, though I've been living as a women happily for months.

The only reason I harp on this is that if I had had some notion earlier in my life of the different ways we experience transgender, I might have understood my condition sooner.

You have to consider, he was seemingly talking about transsexuals specifically, he was using the more social apt lingo to portray his point across. 
What you are talking about seems to be some kind of alternative transgender thing. He was talking specifically about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people.

[suzifrommd]

What you are talking about seems to be some kind of alternative transgender thing. He was talking specifically about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people.

Are there really different types of transexuals (e.g. those who feel "trapped" and those who don't)?

Or are there just different ways of experiencing being transgender?

[Lexi Belle]

Are there really different types of transexuals (e.g. those who feel "trapped" and those who don't)?

Or are there just different ways of experiencing being transgender?

You asked 2 completely different questions as if they were completely relative. 
Transsexuals are people who change genders, meaning anyone  who completely and totally fills the role of the opposite gender(not meaning girly girls either, just becoming totally female in recognition). 

Transgender refers to the entire spectrum, cross dressers, drag queens, any of the gender categories that do not completely swap genders (it does also include transsexuals), but instead play with the gender roles.  There are transsexuals who do nothing but "cross dress"  though, the distinction is all in how and who they want to be.

[anjaq]

I think there is room for all that. Bigenders may end up in the middle there, for other transgenders that region may be male or female or in between but some other part of the brain may be different. Who knows. For some maybe there is even no brain difference at all and they are just doing it for the heck. Transgender is such an umbrella term. I guess this specific study was about those folks who have the really strong dysphoria and did or wanted to have SRS and all that. So for that type of gender issue, this may be an explanation. For the other stuff - no clue. It should not be a problem to allow that experssion in society as well though. So no "this one is more valid than an other so it is socially more acceptabe". That not good. Socially all of it should be acceptable. For TS with the "wrong body" thing it may still be good to have actually a physical reason, mostly because the changes they/we request are the most severe, not just socially but physically and it certainly cannot harm if that is seen as a biological condition that gets insurance coverage

I never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.

[KabitTarah]

I never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.

Personally, I don't see there being a way to have a biological predisposition to be a certain animal, but there could certainly be an overall body dysphoria that could gravitate toward a favorite animal. For the most part, though, I think these groups are reacting to their social differences in a moderately healthy way. In an open and accepting world we'd simply call that a hobby or interest.

Body dysphoria is not just a biological problem. I'm sure there are some transgender people who fall into this category, though I'd expect they're uncommon. Probably the most common body dysphoria comes from gaining or losing a lot of weight or muscle rapidly. Your mind pictures you one way, but you appear a different way. My brother (who's very into working out, weight lifting, etc) instantly knew what I was talking about when I discussed transgender body dysphoria. I don't think he had body dysphoria, but I think he's known a number of people who did.

In terms of transgender tendencies, I firmly believe in the biological aspect - little else would explain the young kids who express the opposite gender (though, from the comments on some of these articles... people can be pretty stupid about that - of course the parents wanted a little girl and just decided to rear the trans* girl that way). I don't believe in a strong genetic aspect, either... though it's impossible to say since most of the previous generation, and nearly all of the generation before it, were closeted all their lives. It also appears (at casual glance) to be fairly frequent, with a distribution similar to homosexuality... basically, it could happen to any child from any parents.

Genetic predisposition might make sense from a hormonal point of view... but I don't think that would be an accurate predictor (just one of those... "your chances of having a trans* boy are 25% higher, because you have high T" or something like that... though that's certainly an extreme oversimplification).

[Lo]

For TS with the "wrong body" thing it may still be good to have actually a physical reason, mostly because the changes they/we request are the most severe, not just socially but physically and it certainly cannot harm if that is seen as a biological condition that gets insurance coverage

There are actually many nonbinary people that suffer from incredible dysphoria, and many who undergo surgery to alleviate it. Unfortunately, I've heard from a number of people that you have to pretend to be MtF or FtM in order for a chance at having the system support you, or pretend that you've been this way your whole life. That seems like a solution that only benefits a portion of the trans* community.

I never heard of people truely identifying as animals in the sense that transpeople do with gender. Like with dysphoria about not being that. But what do I know. I dont think I hate them, but I am admittedly careful there. Mostly because there are people jumping at the opportunity to use that to discredit transsexuality (as in http://www.transadvocate.com/the-rabid-transphobic-hate-mongering-of-the-anti-pornography-movement.htm about a page down where that woman goes on about comparing "women trapped in a mans body" to "rich people trapped in a poor persons body" and so on). I dont believe in the trans-as-a-choice thing at least not for people like me who had serious gender identity issues and serious body dysphoria which I dont think comes from choice. For some, gender expression may be a choice or a desire, for some it is not about the expression.

I don't count myself as an otherkin, and I don't go into their communities at all, but my superficial understanding is that a lot of them suffer from body dysphoria and a number even claim to have phantom limb-like symptoms. If you talk to folks in the body modification community as well, you'll find a sizable population who also get mods to alleviate dysphoria. I personally experience only minimal physical dysphoria regarding my gender, and much more regarding how tall I am. I have a constant feeling of being slightly disoriented from having a body that's "too big". I'm clumsy from not quite knowing where all my limbs are (I know where I think they are). I've done permanent damage to my body from trying to alleviate the discomfort of being the size that I am. I would get surgery to fix it if I could.

And even though I don't feel like I'm in the wrong "gendered" body, there are a lot of procedures I would chose to undergo if they existed, if I could afford them, and if they weren't too dangerous. The reason you don't get a lot of nonbinary people requesting such "severe" changes is because they don't help most of us. It's going from one crappy lie to another for many. So, you can't really claim that we don't want things of this sort, that we're different because of it, when it's just that we don't want what's being offered. Come up with a new invasive procedure, like a hip trimming, or some way to go from a flat chest to a B cup at will, and I'm sure lots of nonbinaries who could afford it would be lining up outside of the surgeon's office. Give us an option C before writing us off as not having as intense dysphoria just because A and B don't hold much appeal.

[Lo]

Body dysphoria is not just a biological problem. I'm sure there are some transgender people who fall into this category, though I'd expect they're uncommon. Probably the most common body dysphoria comes from gaining or losing a lot of weight or muscle rapidly. Your mind pictures you one way, but you appear a different way.

I would actually wager that the most common cause of body dysphoria is from depression.

For years I would come home from college for a visit and be told that I looked like a zombie; lo, I looked at myself in the mirror and didn't recognize what I saw. Frustration and self-loathing are pretty guaranteed side effects of depression, and how many people suffer from it?