I need to vent about something.

[Dahlia]

Ok what about someone like me...i started my transition at almost a B cup because of my weight....yes im fat and im rather proud of it btw.

I've noticed it over and over again....that 'fat', full figured MTF are passable because of their round faces, full cheeks,  soft features and curvy figures, which actually makes them look feminine.
Wearing your hair long also suits a round face perfectly.

Skinny, gaunt, hollow faces and figures make even born women look masculine, except for their overall sizes.

But when they wear their hair long....that makes them look downright scary because it emphasises their gaunt faces and sunken cheeks.

Full figured born women also look better than their (older) skinny counterparts.

You're not 'fat', you're full figured and it suits you!

[KabitTarah]

I've noticed it over and over again....that 'fat', full figured MTF are passable because of their round faces, full cheeks,  soft features and curvy figures, which actually makes them look feminine.
Wearing your hair long also suits a round face perfectly.

Skinny, gaunt, hollow faces and figures make even born women look masculine, except for their overall sizes.

But when they wear their hair long....that makes them look downright scary because it emphasises their gaunt faces and sunken cheeks.

Full figured born women also look better than their (older) skinny counterparts.

You're not 'fat', you're full figured and it suits you!

Being heavyset or overweight and being unhealthy are not the same thing! I've known plenty of high metabolism, skinny people who had terrible health habits! As long as someone's healthy, nobody has the right to talk about how they look (even if they ARE unhealthy, it's a delicate topic).

Some extra fat does make most people look better.

[Dahlia]

Being heavyset or overweight and being unhealthy are not the same thing! I've known plenty of high metabolism, skinny people who had terrible health habits! As long as someone's healthy, nobody has the right to talk about how they look (even if they ARE unhealthy, it's a delicate topic).

Some extra fat does make most people look better.

Where did I write about health and being heavyset or skinny?

I wrote about esthetics only.

[suzifrommd]

Skinny, gaunt, hollow faces and figures make even born women look masculine, except for their overall sizes.

But when they wear their hair long....that makes them look downright scary because it emphasises their gaunt faces and sunken cheeks.

I can't agree with this. I'm tall and thin and have a thin face. Yet I am much more passable with long hair.

This makes the OP's point. What works for one won't necessarily work for another.

[KabitTarah]

Where did I write about health and being heavyset or skinny?

I wrote about esthetics only.

I'm sorry. I agree. I didn't think I said you had, I was just trying to expand on it. Being overweight (previously obese) and very unhealthy, myself, I get nervous when people say fat is ok. I suppose those with the opposite problem have the opposite hang-ups.

Sorry again... it's totally me. I know I had a problem and I'm not trying to assign that problem to anyone else!!!

[Dahlia]

I'm sorry. I agree. I didn't think I said you had, I was just trying to expand on it. Being overweight (previously obese) and very unhealthy, myself, I get nervous when people say fat is ok. I suppose those with the opposite problem have the opposite hang-ups.

Sorry again... it's totally me. I know I had a problem and I'm not trying to assign that problem to anyone else!!!

Oh, think nothing of it, it's ok :-)

[Apples Mk.II]

Just a clarification on the voice thing.  It can change with training, but hormones traditionally don't reverse t effects.  Most people will need to train their voice and have never heard of hrt altering an mtfs voice in a meaningful way.  Still, I live to be educated, so please tell me if im off base.

Today the therapist had the guts of telling me again that my voice would change on HRT. Yeah, I told her that I have read every article and opinion on the net, and that has never happened (Maybe if you just started puberty it could be reverted a bit, but not with 30 years), and please, stop with it. It's not the first time she tells me that and I don't like false hopes. Specially when my throat is all sore from spending the night trying different intonations and resonances.

[Chaos]

I don't like false hopes.

This is mainly the reason i am very honest and blunt in my posts and sometimes come off as rude *though i dont mean to be rude but i dont hold anything back* i believe people deserve to be their self and with all honesty.Finding their strength and only that can be done through encouragement and real hope.Even about this exact topic.People should accept that everyone is different and everyone is beautiful in their own way and with that,should have people to help them along the way.

[anjaq]

Few people I have ever met claimed that HRT changes voice - it does not significantly. I think it probably does some things to it, but it cannot change it seriously. I am now 15 years on HRT and while it takes some serious effort and is psychologically hard, I managed to get a little soundbit out that was probably rather close to my pre-everything voice. I wanted to analyze that and see what my pitch was back then. So that is still there and all the changes seem basically be due to habit and maybe muscle memory. Even though I dont sound definitely female even now, it still is far from the "original". But not due to HRT.

For me I think loosing weight makes me look more female again, as I will losse the excess fat on the jaw and neck which makes it look bigger.

Anyways - yes to give people false hopes does not really help, but of course to claim that there is no hope is wrong either. So I can say that despite everyone telling me that foot size cannot change with HRT, I am consistently 1 Eurosize under my pre-HRT sizes. I have no idea how as certainly bones did not change - more likely it is something about fat and muscles changing - IDK. So sometimes to deny all hope is not the best, but one should not overdo it - No one should for example expect to loose a full US size for shoes, thats just unrealistic. Same for any voice changes besides some more softness and maybe a few Hz increase in pitch due to thinning vocal cords (more likely it will influence your whole being and by that "unlock" frequencies to be used in regular speech that previoulsy may only have been used if singing)

[Gina_Z]

Just a clarification on the voice thing.  It can change with training, but hormones traditionally don't reverse t effects.  Most people will need to train their voice and have never heard of hrt altering an mtfs voice in a meaningful way.  Still, I live to be educated, so please tell me if im off base.

Yes, when I realized that was true years ago, I was disappointed, but then I listened to girls who have gone through voice training on the internet I came to the conclusion that it was a real solution. Yes it will require a lot more work than a magic pill, but it can work. It turns out that the major difference between men and women's voices is not all about pitch. It's something else. How your tone is produced, how pitch varies, etc.

[vlmitchell]

Again, just to keep pounding this one: HRT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE LARYNX!!!

<RANT!>
STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION!!!

It's seriously damaging to people to give them false hope of an impossible change. There's enough BS in the trans community with "HRT regimen X has SO much better results than regimen Y!!!" or "Natural alternatives are so much better!" or the rest of the nonsense. I'm a nice person. Everyone who's read my posts knows that but I am sick and tired of all the magical thinking, and frankly dangerous fantasizing that goes on in some of these threads. Reality is reality, folks. We get what we get and sometimes, that's all we get.

Want a better voice? Work at for it. Want a better body? Get in shape. Want nice boobs and didn't get a great rack from HRT? There's augmentation for that, if you want. You can get the body and life that you want if you're willing to put in the time. If you don't, you're probably deluding yourself about what you have unless you're really lucky in every aspect. Most of us have one or two aspects about our physical transition that we don't hate.

To wit: I've got a nice voice... through thousands of hours of speaking and hundreds of hours on loopback listening. I have a pretty nice body. I eat well and work at it. I don't have huge boobs. I'll buy a set after I'm done with derby... maybe before, regardless, it's my choice to just do so.

If you want things, stop wishing for them and make it happen. There's no magic pill for ANYTHING transition related.
</RANT!>

To the OP: YMMV is the general story of development for any human, be it a preteen girl or a trans chick. Not everyone gets nice breasts and has a fabulous transitioning experience. Even if you do, it's not an easy ride so, don't worry about what other people tell you about what you're going through. Go through your transition and see above if your results aren't what you want.





Edited for profanity

[Gina_Z]

Amen!.....I don't like to see you so angry. I wish you peace.

[vlmitchell]

Amen!.....I don't like to see you so angry. I wish you peace.

Eh, I'll be okay but I really, really get tired of people putting forth their fantasy-laden bollox as factual accounts, even if we're talking about their own personal experience... actually, especially if we're talking about that. Trans peeps are masters at fooling themselves. I mean, really, it's part of how we keep the mask on for as long as we do but I'll be damned if I'm going to let crappy information and pseudo-realities keep messing with the heads of so many impressionable just-transitioning-women. We're like babies when we pop out and misinformation getting into our heads about what could and couldn't happen makes it way harder and lots more painful.

The science of this stuff is well understood at this point or, at least, it is when we're talking about transition related HRT effects. People clouding up the waters with baseless crap made it harder for me to know reality from wishful thinking a few years ago. I'm generally patient but I'm not corking it up anymore when people spout nonsense.

For those of you who find what I say offensive, tough. You want to tell me and a bunch of other people that 'this thing happened to me!'? Go to your doc, get them to write up their findings, get them peer reviewed, and then we'll talk. 'Till then, you're just so much non-verified fluff information that won't help anyone and likely will do harm.

[Jenna Marie]

Hey, I had a pet peeve that wasn't about boobs, too.

(I also actually dropped about a size and a half in shoes - which I know for sure b/c shoes I bought at the beginning of transition and wore only a couple times are now way too big.)

My voice definitely didn't change at all except through hard and persistent work, though.

[Lexi Belle]

Eh, I'll be okay but I really, really get tired of people putting forth their fantasy-laden bollox as factual accounts, even if we're talking about their own personal experience... actually, especially if we're talking about that. Trans peeps are masters at fooling themselves. I mean, really, it's part of how we keep the mask on for as long as we do but I'll be damned if I'm going to let crappy information and pseudo-realities keep messing with the heads of so many impressionable just-transitioning-women. We're like babies when we pop out and misinformation getting into our heads about what could and couldn't happen makes it way harder and lots more painful.

The science of this stuff is well understood at this point or, at least, it is when we're talking about transition related HRT effects. People clouding up the waters with baseless crap made it harder for me to know reality from wishful thinking a few years ago. I'm generally patient but I'm not corking it up anymore when people spout nonsense.

For those of you who find what I say offensive, tough. You want to tell me and a bunch of other people that 'this thing happened to me!'? Go to your doc, get them to write up their findings, get them peer reviewed, and then we'll talk. 'Till then, you're just so much non-verified fluff information that won't help anyone and likely will do harm.

I'd also like to mention the cup size smaller, that is also misinformation.  There is 'some' evidence behind it in the sizes of fully transitioned women, but generally I think the REAL difference is in the band, not the cup size.  I'm kinda tired of seeing the "1 cup size smaller than your nearest relative" too.

All in all, there is nothing harsh about getting the truth out there.  Granted you took a very stern and scolding approach, but sometimes that's what needs to be done to let people know what they are doing.  Almost everyone assumes my new voice is a product of what HRT cause, that and my mother is worried about how "thin" my belly is (I've been doing workouts and mild yoga).  Everyone is so quick to assume HRT is doing things to their body, when reality is YOU are probably doing it self-consciously and you're just giving HRT unwarranted credit.  Thus, the string of lies appears and gets carried on by other people who unknowingly train themselves into other happens.  (I.E. More feminine walking habits, slightly heightening your pitch without noticing and maybe even healthier lifestyle choices)

Edit: I will also add, yoga and core/lower section oriented workouts make a HUGE difference. DO IT.  You won't regret it.

[Ltl89]

Again, just to keep pounding this one: HRT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE LARYNX!!!

<RANT!>
STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION!!!

It's seriously damaging to people to give them false hope of an impossible change. There's enough BS in the trans community with "HRT regimen X has SO much better results than regimen Y!!!" or "Natural alternatives are so much better!" or the rest of the nonsense. I'm a nice person. Everyone who's read my posts knows that but I am sick and tired of all the magical thinking, and frankly dangerous fantasizing that goes on in some of these threads. Reality is reality, folks. We get what we get and sometimes, that's all we get.

Want a better voice? Work at for it. Want a better body? Get in shape. Want nice boobs and didn't get a great rack from HRT? There's augmentation for that, if you want. You can get the body and life that you want if you're willing to put in the time. If you don't, you're probably deluding yourself about what you have unless you're really lucky in every aspect. Most of us have one or two aspects about our physical transition that we don't hate.

To wit: I've got a nice voice... through thousands of hours of speaking and hundreds of hours on loopback listening. I have a pretty nice body. I eat well and work at it. I don't have huge boobs. I'll buy a set after I'm done with derby... maybe before, regardless, it's my choice to just do so.

If you want things, stop wishing for them and make it happen. There's no magic pill for ANYTHING transition related.
</RANT!>

To the OP: YMMV is the general story of development for any human, be it a preteen girl or a trans chick. Not everyone gets nice breasts and has a fabulous transitioning experience. Even if you do, it's not an easy ride so, don't worry about what other people tell you about what you're going through. Go through your transition and see above if your results aren't what you want.





Edited for profanity

Hrt can do some things and results will vary, but it's unlikely or not possible to impact certain things (like voice).  Still, it's important to realize that hormones can do some great things as well.  Maybe it isn't magic, but they are an important aspect of our transition.  There is a reason we take them to further our transition.  I've seen much progress from these pills and it came purely from that alone.  As long as we are realistic about what can or can't happen, then there is no harm done. Realistic optimism for things that can happen isn't a bad thing.   Just, as you said, be realistic about it.

Lastly, it's okay for people to feel upset about the things they can't change.  While some may see that as counter productive, I see that as human.  And many are welcome to share their such feelings on a support site to vent.  I've done it before and it's helped me reach some self realization or at least get out my grief.   The tone of your post seemed to suggest that it isn't welcome and seemed to lack empathy.  I'll just say that sometimes you have to go through the dark before you get to the light.  Try to understand some are still not in the same stage of transition as you.  Some lack knowledge on what can or can't happen.  Some have realistic concerns and fears about everything ahead of them.   It's okay for them to focus on those thoughts because it can lead to self growth and further development.  Also, asking newbie transitioning questions like "will my voice change"  is essential because there was a time that none of us knew the answer to that question. 

[Lexi Belle]

Hrt can do some things and results will vary, but it's unlikely or not possible to impact certain things (like voice).  Still, it's important to realize that hormones can do some great things as well.  Maybe it isn't magic, but they are an important aspect of our transition.  There is a reason we take them to further our transition.  I've seen much progress from these pills and it came purely from that alone.  As long as we are realistic about what can or can't happen, then there is no harm done. Realistic optimism for things that can happen isn't a bad thing.   Just, as you said, be realistic about it.

Lastly, it's okay for people to feel upset about the things they can't change.  While some may see that as counter productive, I see that as human.  And many are welcome to share their such feelings on a support site to vent.  I've done it before and it's helped me reach some self realization or at least get out my grief.   The tone of your post seemed to suggest that it isn't welcome and seemed to lack empathy.  I'll just say that sometimes you have to go through the dark before you get to the light.  Try to understand some are still not in the same stage of transition as you.  Some lack knowledge on what can or can't happen.  Some have realistic concerns and fears about everything ahead of them.   It's okay for them to focus on those thoughts because it can lead to self growth and further development.  Also, asking newbie transitioning questions like "will my voice change"  is essential because there was a time that none of us knew the answer to that question.

Based on your judgment of the conclusion of her post, I think you misunderstood what she was referring to.  She's not tired of people wishing for things or having high hopes.  She's tired of people claiming things that just simply aren't true.  Which, is also human as has been said.  It's not uncommon for people to see things as more than they really are, I've done it.  "MY SKIN IS GETTING SOFTER!" On the first week.  Did anyone else see much of a difference? No.  But it seemed drastic for me, and thus I thought magic was happening. . - Voila a candidate for false impressions.

She's upset about people saying "it can change your voice!"  Intersex or not, I find that to be untrue.  The voice box is generally fixed, it can get higher, but through practice.  It is fixed at the deepness you get through HRT.  What she is tired of is the people saying HRT magically changed their voice, when reality says it is certainly, from what I understand, not true.

[vlmitchell]

Based on your judgment of the conclusion of her post, I think you misunderstood what she was referring to.  She's not tired of people wishing for things or having high hopes.  She's tired of people claiming things that just simply aren't true.

Yup. Pretty much that. I know that a lot of peeps want things to change and, so, they project those changes onto their experiential reality but, unless it's 100% proven, I'm really quite tired of seeing things like that on here. As has been said, a great number of girls on this site are brand spanking new to this. The last thing they need is someone who's been on HRT for three months telling them about all the things they *think* are happening but aren't actually happening at all.

Hrt can do some things and results will vary, but it's unlikely or not possible to impact certain things (like voice).  Still, it's important to realize that hormones can do some great things as well.

Of course it can. Softer skin, decreased muscle mass, boobs, pheromonal changes, hair thickness, psychological changes by way of decreased exposure to T, removal of the reflex to look at other women's breasts, etc etc etc. So many things that are, if not crucial, than at least very important to our ability to ease into our new perspective. I never said that it can't.

My tone was simply angry, very, very angry, at people who spread misinformation via their own projected false observations. It can't make you shorter. It can't change hand size. It can't freaking change your voice. Some things, like the voice, it can't do but we can. Some things are just not possible. The lack of responsibility that people have when they dole out claims of these impossible changes is appalling. There are so many confused women on here who don't know what to look for and making claims that will get their expectations out of step with reality has serious and VERY DEADLY potential consequences. Saying things that are patently untrue is not just a 'human nature' thing outside of a 'look at me and my special experience' thing. Yeah, I was and am scolding about those instances and I will continue to be so.

Transition is work. It's a hell of a lot of work. Work on voice. Work on mannerisms. Work on communication. Work on family relations. Work all over the damned place. The older you are when you start, the more work it is. I want women to know that, yes, this is a valid experience, yes HRT will make some changes that will make you more comfortable, yes some of them will be awesome, but it won't magically make everything better nor will it change things that it can't. I'd like the expectations of new girls to match the reality of the situation.

If something is unknown (cup size) then it's unknown. If it's impossible, it's impossible. If it's possible but will take some work, then that's the case. If you're going to need to go under the knife to make a certain change happen, then you will. None of this is secret information anymore. There's articles, studies, and hundreds and thousands of women who have already been here and done that. Part of that is why I came back to this forum after becoming fully and completely comfortable with who I am and what my experience was. Another part is to debunk crap information like this because a lot of what people said earlier in my transition was bollox and made me very confused and frustrated with results that didn't happen.

On a personal note, I realized yesterday that I'd missed two doses of E back to back and my daily of Spiro so I was feeling very, very irritable. I used severely harsh language and got called out (edited, and warned) regarding it. I apologize for that and I do apologize for my tone but I'm serious about being passionate about putting a stop to nonsense misinformation being spread around like a bad case of the clap. People can get hurt by this kind of thing. Let's do our best to put a stop to it before someone else does.

[Dahlia]

at people who spread misinformation via their own projected false observations. It can't make you shorter. It can't change hand size. It can't freaking change your voice. Some things, like the voice, it can't do but we can. Some things are just not possible. The lack of responsibility that people have when they dole out claims of these impossible changes is appalling. There are so many confused women on here who don't know what to look for and making claims that will get their expectations out of step with reality has serious and VERY DEADLY potential consequences. Saying things that are patently untrue is not just a 'human nature' thing outside of a 'look at me and my special experience' thing.

. Another part is to debunk crap information like this because a lot of what people said earlier in my transition was bollox and made me very confused and frustrated with results that didn't happen.

I'm serious about being passionate about putting a stop to nonsense misinformation being spread around like a bad case of the clap. People can get hurt by this kind of thing. Let's do our best to put a stop to it before someone else does.

+1, I fully agree!

And even in this thread the 'hormone induced miracle' of 'magically shrinking feet'  pops up again......

Here's an interesting article about growing older and mentions the  growing of the human feet over the years. Just as I wrote several times before.

Unlike bones and muscle, our ears, nose and feet continue to grow as we get older.
The ears are made up of cartilage, a flexible connective tissue which, unlike bones, continues to grow until we die.
Cartilage also becomes thinner with age, causing the skin to stretch and sag, so the ears stretch down and the tip of the nose lengthens and droops.
Meanwhile, our feet become longer and wider with age, as the tendons and ligaments that link the many tiny bones lose elasticity.


This allows the toes to spread out and the arch of the foot to flatten. Some over-40s can gain as much as one shoe size every ten years.

And no amount of estrogen will prevent your feet from growing/spreading out/getting longer, let alone make them shrink in size.
Not even when administered at a young age and no, puberty blockers won't keep a MTF short with small feet.
On the contrary: MTF on puberty blockers grow unusually tall with a matching shoesize....that doesn't shrink when they start using estrogen and no, they won't shrink in  height either....until they grow (very) old...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451694/Lifetime-blink-eye-ageing-captured-incredible-gifs.html

[vlmitchell]

Not entirely true. The shrinking of the muscle mass in the feet may reduce shoe size a little at first. Definitely possible to reduce width this way. That said, if you've got very lean feet to start with, no, there will likely be no change.